How many of you Traditionalists

[SemperFidelis]

Does anyone know what is wrong with the good ol’ Baltimore Catechism? Has the Church decided it is too old to be useful?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Baltimore Catechism. In fact, I find it to be far superior to the new Cathechisms, especially the new USCCB one and I didn’t grow up with it (I’m only 22). There are two really great post-Vatican II Catechisms if you want something more recent. I would suggest This Is The Faith by Canon Francis Ripley, or one of Fr. John Hardon’s Catechisms (he wrote three). The Church has most absolutely not declared anything to be wrong with the Baltimore Catechism or that it can’t used for instruction of the Faithful. It teaches the unadultered Catholic Faith, and for that much it should be praised. Stick with the Baltimore and you’ll never go wrong.

PS where can I go to find out what exactly a “traditionalist” is? I am wondering if I am one…

www.fisheaters.com

and more specifically this article (links from Fisheaters):

latinmassmagazine.com/conservative.asp

Do browse around Fisheaters though, it has a wealth of information and great articles.

 

[latinmasslover]

Slava Isusu Christu!

I unofficially teach a very small group (16 or so children, ages 10-16) their catechism from the Baltimore Catechism in my home after Mass every other Sunday. Because most of these kids are homeschooled, I consider this class to be part of their homeschool curriculum. Plus, I honestly don’t think that anyone really cares.

Several years ago, my husband and I offered to purchase for our parish as many copies of the Baltimore Catechism as they needed, and we also gave the parish a gift of $10,000 so that the Religious Ed director could purchase whatever materials for the CCD classes that she needed. I had in mind a very traditional CCD class like what I grew up with, i.e., memorizing the answers to the questions in the BC, the Laws of the Church, all the traditional Catholic prayers etc, and some apologetics too. However, I was told that the Baltimore Catechism was no longer used since it is not considered adequate or useful and too “old-fashioned.” Unfortunately, I was unimpressed with the workbooks that had been selected by the RE Director. For that reason and a few more (e.g. some of the children were teasing and taunting each other, and being generally ill-mannered), I decided to teach the children at home.

Does anyone know what is wrong with the good ol’ Baltimore Catechism? I believe it was first written and used in 1885 up until the 1970’s. Has the Church decided it is too old to be useful?

PS where can I go to find out what exactly a “traditionalist” is? I am wondering if I am one…

The problem people have the the Baltimore Catechism is that it’s Catholic. Nothing more, nothing less…it just doesn’t fit in the the “feel-good-nobody-goes-to-Hell-because-God-is-all-love” mentality.

There’s no formal definition of a traditionalist. I always called myself a traditional Catholic because I didn’t want to be confused with the majority of Protestant Catholics. I’d like to be able to just say Catholic, but “Catholic” isn’t the best word in the modern world to describe someone who’s faithful to the Church.

What seems to qualify one as a “traditionalist” is a love for the Latin Mass and the way things were before being unified with the world. Faithful to all the teachings and morality, obviously, with a strong love of holy and Catholic ways of the Church. That’s the way I see it, anyway.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Baltimore Catechism? There is something to be said for rote memory. At 56, I can still provide the answers to many of the questions asked by the Catechism. It was fundamental to my first eight years of Catholic education. The Brothers took over for the next five - no Catholics don’t read the Bible.

 

[latinmasslover]

Well, I’m setting myself up to be piled on again, but…

Is the Baltimore Catechism really the way to reach out to today’s youth to open their eyes to their faith? Like you, I was taught out of it…and if you read it cover to cover (twice) like I did, you come away with the impression that pretty much all of us are headed to Hades anyway.

Nobody can measure up to everything in that book, if they’re truthful with themselves.

So, what can we use to teach our youth, that they will at least ponder before dismissing it?

Only a flippant remark or an arrogant statement will get you dumped on.

Jesus Christ Himself said to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. This is what we are to aspire after. The Baltimore Catechism gives us the truth: who we are and who God is. It doesn’t promote the mentality reigning throughout the Church that improving is optional, get to it when you feel like it, because God loves you just the way you are. The BC doesn’t sugar-coat the truth. It is up to the educator to explain it in a way that can be understood.

 

[brotherhrolf]

But I have to agree with Brother John. The Baltimore Catechism does indeed call us all into account. And, indeed, a true reading of it would find the majority of us falling far short of the mark. I know I certainly do.

But put what the BC teaches into perspective particularly as it applies to the Holy Eucharist. I have an absolute fear of receiving the Holy Eucharist unworthily. I daresay that most of us who grew up with the BC have this same fear. If all of us truly believed that we were receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, wouldn’t the confessional lines be longer on Saturday? Wouldn’t confession be offered far more than it is today - twenty minutes before the 4pm Vigil on Saturday?

I give thanks that my conscience was formed in large measure by the BC.

 

[Brother_John]

Only a flippant remark or an arrogant statement will get you dumped on.

Jesus Christ Himself said to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. This is what we are to aspire after. The Baltimore Catechism gives us the truth: who we are and who God is. It doesn’t promote the mentality reigning throughout the Church that improving is optional, get to it when you feel like it, because God loves you just the way you are. The BC doesn’t sugar-coat the truth. It is up to the educator to explain it in a way that can be understood.

We can debate philosopy -vs- reality all day. Philosophically, the Baltimore Catechism has it right. But realistically, you hand one of them to every 7th and 8th grader in your CCD class and most of them will wind up in dresser drawers, trash cans, or as door stops.

Our challenge is to teach our youth in a manner that moves them to seek the truth. Like it or not, times have changed via technology and media. Standing in front of class bludgeoning the kids with the BC, verbatim, is no longer productive.

 

[ThereseMarie]

Blessings to you, Brother John, and Glory to Jesus Christ!

Is the Baltimore Catechism really the way to reach out to today’s youth to open their eyes to their faith? Like you, I was taught out of it…and if you read it cover to cover (twice) like I did, you come away with the impression that pretty much all of us are headed to Hades anyway.

I have read it cover to cover far more than 2 times, and I don’t get the impression that all of us are going to hell. I just don’t see that.

Nobody can measure up to everything in that book, if they’re truthful with themselves.?

Nevertheless, we are called to be perfect as our Father in heaven is.

So, what can we use to teach our youth, that they will at least ponder before dismissing it?

To start, we adults must be perfect ( or close to perfect) examples to them. As for what books to use, I don’t really know. I am glad though, that there are others here that like the BC too.

 

[Brother_John]

To start, we adults must be perfect ( or close to perfect) examples to them.

But as lay teachers, we aren’t perfect, or even close. As such I believe that our challenge is to present the faith to them in a way that challenges them to look and seek on their own.

But, I’ll have plenty of good quotes from CAF to work with

 

[latinmasslover]

We can debate philosopy -vs- reality all day. Philosophically, the Baltimore Catechism has it right. But realistically, you hand one of them to every 7th and 8th grader in your CCD class and most of them will wind up in dresser drawers, trash cans, or as door stops.

Our challenge is to teach our youth in a manner that moves them to seek the truth. Like it or not, times have changed via technology and media. Standing in front of class bludgeoning the kids with the BC, verbatim, is no longer productive.

You’re not wrong; lecturing at them like a Puritan minister will do nothing except make them leave the Church to join a feel-good community.

When teaching CCD I will be using the BC. I plan on going through the whole thing throughout the year, explaining in a way they can understand. I would then give them their own copy at the end of the year as a future reference, never at the beginning.

I’m not saying that we all should teach the same way. A lot of the time, dare I say most, when some people try to explain things “charitably” they leave truth at the back door and the children/students/catechumens end up learning only how to be nice to everybody. Jesus adjusted His preaching according to the crowd, as should we. We are just not to sacrifice the truth in order to be politically correct or nice. True Christian charity sometimes requires very direct. This is why we must pray for wisdom and discernment, so we don’t let loose at the wrong time.

 

[latinmasslover]

But as lay teachers, we aren’t perfect, or even close. As such I believe that our challenge is to present the faith to them in a way that challenges them to look and seek on their own.

By that you mean we should teach in such a way that they want to learn, of their own initiative, of the Church and her teachings?

 

[ThereseMarie]

Ok, so this is funny. I asked my children if they or the others in my CCD class feel as though they are being ‘beaten over the head’ with the Baltimore Catechism, and one asked me, “Mom, are parents really using the Catechism to hit their kids??!!!”

I also asked them if they get the impression from the BC that we are all going to hell. My 12 year old said, “No, but I do get the feeling that if we all don’t straighten up soon, we’re going to spend a heck of a long time in Purgatory.” At least they are learning fear of Lord!

 

[ThereseMarie]

But as lay teachers, we aren’t perfect, or even close. As such I believe that our challenge is to present the faith to them in a way that challenges them to look and seek on their own.

But, I’ll have plenty of good quotes from CAF to work with

Abundant blessings, Brother John, and Slava Isusu Christu!

I know we are not perfect, but we are supposed to work hard (pray, fast, etc) to be perfect. I do not agree that we should challenge children to ‘look and seek on their own’. Goodness knows what they will come with on their own from the pages of MySpace and Utube! WE know the truth. It is our responsibility to transmit it to them. Remember what His Holiness Pope John Paul the Great said - parents are the primary educators of their children. That means you find the Truth and live it, and then hand it down to the little ones. Don’t you agree?

 

[Brother_John]

By that you mean we should teach in such a way that they want to learn, of their own initiative, of the Church and her teachings?

Now we seem to agree

 

[Brother_John]

I do not agree that we should challenge children to ‘look and seek on their own’.

It is our responsibility to transmit it to them. Remember what His Holiness Pope John Paul the Great said - parents are the primary educators of their children. That means you find the Truth and live it, and then hand it down to the little ones. Don’t you agree?

Yes I agree, but it’s HOW we hand it down that will make the difference whether we keep them in the fold, or wander elsewhere.

 

[latinmasslover]

Now we seem to agree

It’s about time!

 

[palmas85]

We can debate philosopy -vs- reality all day. Philosophically, the Baltimore Catechism has it right. But realistically, you hand one of them to every 7th and 8th grader in your CCD class and most of them will wind up in dresser drawers, trash cans, or as door stops.

Our challenge is to teach our youth in a manner that moves them to seek the truth. Like it or not, times have changed via technology and media. Standing in front of class bludgeoning the kids with the BC, verbatim, is no longer productive.

I think the Baltimore Catechism is good for exactly what it was designed for, to lay down a good solid FOUNDATION to build on. It was never meant to be the end all of religious instruction. It was the beginning, the base that other lessons were to be built on. And it did that admirably. You wouldn’t come away with the ability to explain intricate areas of dogma or doctrine, but you did know what the Holy Trinity is and isn’t, you knew what sin was and wasn’t you knew what the Mass was and you knew what the Eucharist was.

As for the deeper issues they were left for after you learned the basics. Just like mathematics, you don’t start with Calculus, you start with 1 plus 1. In religion you don’t start with Augustinianism or Moral and Systematic Theology. You start with the basics as simple as they are. Who is God?. Where is God? What is the Holy Trinity? Who is God the father?

Without the basics you end up with a lot of people who don’t have a clue as to what is really going on. I say, use the Baltimore Catechism as it was intended and then move on to the next level.

PS if you are staring out at the 7th and 8th grade level, I can tell you there will be problems no matter type of instruction you are using. You have to start them younger than that and get that good firm foundation laid down.

 

[Joannm]

I think the Baltimore Catechism is good for exactly what it was designed for, to lay down a good solid FOUNDATION to build on. It was never meant to be the end all of religious instruction. It was the beginning, the base that other lessons were to be built on. And it did that admirably. You wouldn’t come away with the ability to explain intricate areas of dogma or doctrine, but you did know what the Holy Trinity is and isn’t, you knew what sin was and wasn’t you knew what the Mass was and you knew what the Eucharist was.

As for the deeper issues they were left for after you learned the basics. Just like mathematics, you don’t start with Calculus, you start with 1 plus 1. In religion you don’t start with Augustinianism or Moral and Systematic Theology. You start with the basics as simple as they are. Who is God?. Where is God? What is the Holy Trinity? Who is God the father?

Without the basics you end up with a lot of people who don’t have a clue as to what is really going on. I say, use the Baltimore Catechism as it was intended and then move on to the next level.

PS if you are staring out at the 7th and 8th grade level, I can tell you there will be problems no matter type of instruction you are using. You have to start them younger than that and get that good firm foundation laid down.

While I am not a big fan of using the BC now, I do think you have a point. I was educated with the BC for 6 years. We just memorized and it was never really explained, but it provided a basis. It was not until years later that any of what I memorized was actually explained to me. The problem is, if memorization is all a kid does, than it is not really going to do him any good. If what he learns is not explained well (and this is the problem with volunteer catechists) and reinforced at home (this is a bigger problem) then all that memorizing is just going to be that, memorizing concepts that they don’t really understand.

 

[palmas85]

While I am not a big fan of using the BC now, I do think you have a point. I was educated with the BC for 6 years. We just memorized and it was never really explained, but it provided a basis. It was not until years later that any of what I memorized was actually explained to me. The problem is, if memorization is all a kid does, than it is not really going to do him any good. If what he learns is not explained well (and this is the problem with volunteer catechists) and reinforced at home (this is a bigger problem) then all that memorizing is just going to be that, memorizing concepts that they don’t really understand.

That is why the education has to continue after the foundation is laid down. The problem today is that almost no attention is paid to the basics. In fact, in way, way many programs, precious little attention is paid to the doctrine of the faith at all. All you hear is that God loves you, God loves everybody and we should love everyone as well. Thats really about it.

How did most of us learn multiplication? Memorize the tables. Hard work memorizing those things. But most of us well some of us:blush: can still rattle them off. We really didn’t realize the practical applications until later when we got into a higher level of mathematics. I think the same concept could apply in religion as well. Memorize the basics, then and only then expand into the more theologically serious areas.

I mean lets face it, an eight year old isn’t really going to grasp much beyond the basics in a theological lesson anyway despite how impressive and advanced they seem to be on TV shows…

 

[truagape]

In that one memorable case, my teaching that practicing homosexuality was indeed frowned upon by the Church, does that sound politically correct enough?, was not at all consistent with the Directors view that all sexuality was a gift that should be enjoyed to the fullest. The Bishop agreed with me but the Director basically told him to go climb a rope and to butt out of Parish business. He said that as he was hired by the Parish Council, he worked for them, not the Diocese and he therefore was not required to take orders from the Diocese.

I will guarantee you that particular director is far from unique. Many of these people are well entrenched and run their programs as their own little fiefdoms in which they do, say and teach pretty much exactly what they want, regardless as to whether or not it fits in with Catholic teaching at all.

That is more than likely the reason you don’t see more Traditionalists involved. If you can get your foot in the door and in many places that is a very big if, you are constantly being monitored, watched over and having your lessons derided by the more progressive and liberal minded.

Awe, do you feel…DISCRIMINATED?

 

[jabelltulsa]

What I am/was mostly interested in, it this:

On countless threads, there is a “core” of “Traditional Catholics”, who constantly espouse their belief that the Church is running off a cliff of destruction.

They can quote scripture, encyclicals, other Church documents, you name it, in a heartbeat…to back their position(s).

Yet, as this particular thread shows…most of them “talk the talk”, but don’t “walk the walk”.

I appreciate all the insightful responses to this thread.

What I have found, is what I suspected all along. Of all the many who posted to say they actively participated in teaching their faith, precious few of the posts came from the folks on this forum who so freely, vigourously and sometimes even viciously espouse their “traditional” beliefs.

Both my parents are avid “traditionalists”, and they have never taught a CCD class.

They have, however, instilled a great love for God in me. They have taught me to take part in the Sacraments as often as possible (daily if available), and they have shown me that those Sacraments are the conduits that God Himself has created for His Grace. They have given me a great love for Mother Mary and all the Saints.

They have demanded that I be a man of integrity and Christian Charity and humility. I can only hope that I will do as they have done when I have children. I have a lot to live up to, given their example.

They have “Walked the Walk”, and they are traditionalists.

I thank God that they have given me a love for TLM, and that they have drilled it into my head that every Sunday is a holy day of obligation.

We went through a lot of hardship attending TLM throughout the years. I think respect should be paid to those souls who kept interest in TLM alive. These are the “traditionalists” that I know. I really don’t care what other traditionalists have said to you … it is wrong to criticize them. A lot of traditionalists sacrifice (as we have) to live up to their beliefs. If you feel like they are not “walking the walk”, you should probably pray for them and extend a charitable word - maybe even rethink what “walking the walk” is. :twocents:

You seem like a really nice person. I don’t think you meant to be judgmental, but just know that I took it that way at first read.

God Bless