How many pages from the Bible do you use or need to use to support your beliefs?

[Brywan]

There are certainly protestants out there that would be fine standing with Martin Luther who started the Reformation on ONE verse in Romans. The famous,“By grace are you saved, not of works lest any man shoud boast…” If we look at the proper historical content of the verse Paul is NOT even talking about good deeds but, the Law of Moses. So Luther didn’t even get that one right.

Uh, actually that’s Ephesians 2:8 ff.

Luther’s verse is Romans 1:17: “The righteous man shall live by faith…”

 

[cheese_sdc]

How many pages from the Bible do you use or need to use to support your beliefs?

None.

 

[jericho777]

Actaully Bible Christians hold to their pown ersonal interpretation of the whole Bible-which has, in the last 500 years, led to mass confusion. as to what Scripture says

First I don’t trace my lineage to the reformation. I’m not protesting anything I’m for restoring the once for all delivered faith to the saints. I go back to the first century and the original text to Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark Luke et al.

You may call it confusion but I call it freedom to read the word of God for yourself. The more I read the more I see Gods’ Glory and love for His children. People are set free by reading the word of God for themselves.

How is it possible for so many people over many years to read scripture and come to a very different set of values than Rome? They are relying only the bible not not an middleman. When you read scripture in light of itself you get the best unadultirated meaning.

 

[jlhargus]

I dont need any to support my beliefsI dont read Scripture to discern the Truth-I read Scripture to gain a greater understanding of the Truth that has been taught to me by the Church

JL: Well said estesbob That’s exactly what the Berens did also, as Jews they KNEW the OT, yet didn’t correctly UNDERSTAND. It was only AFTER Paul taught them the gospel, that they searched the scripture to SEE Those THINGS they had NOT seen before, even though it was there. Just as you post some never knew what James said about dead faith, even though they may have read all of James. First the Church TEACHES the gospel, then we search the scripture, many Protestants search the scripture to build their own individual teaching.

 

[jlhargus]

First I don’t trace my lineage to the reformation. I’m not protesting anything I’m for restoring the once for all delivered faith to the saints. I go back to the first century and the original text to Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark Luke et al.

You may call it confusion but I call it freedom to read the word of God for yourself. The more I read the more I see Gods’ Glory and love for His children. People are set free by reading the word of God for themselves.

JL: Are we really free to make up our own teachings or are we bound to hold Christ’s teachings, as proclaimed by those Chirst SENT to TEACH the whole world TILL THE END?

[Mt28:16 Then **THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and **TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.]

Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

[Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?] It is that ONE SENT FELLOWSHIP, the Church the pillar and ground of TRUTH, who alone has the authority to SEND.

How is it possible for so many people over many years to read scripture and come to a very different set of values than Rome? They are relying only the bible not not an middleman. When you read scripture in light of itself you get the best unadultirated meaning.

JL: Evidentely it is very easy and so say ALL those thousands of contenious denominations, all claiming to be led by the SAME Holy Spirit, in their interpretation of the SAME scripture, yet they do NOT AGREE. Sola scriptura is nothing more than a TOWER OF BABEL confusing the one faith language into thousands. Scattering people of faith, who no longer speak the same FAITH LANGUAGE, into thousands and still doing so. How many denomination has sola scriptura UNITED? How many has it DIVIDED?

Those same scripture also tell you the Church is the pillar and ground of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15, how many throw out that page and the following?

[1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into **THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR] Belonging to that ONE SENT FELLOWSHIP is how we know with assurance TRUTH from ERROR]

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD,]

Paul even checked his teaching with that one sent fellowship, to be sure he was not teaching another doctrine or gospel. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after **I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]

 

[awantz]

How many pages thick, would the Bible be, if we limited it to Protestant, or “Born-again” verses? I know that the Catholic Bible would remain the same, because we don’t reject anything in the Bible and we don’t believe that there exists, any true conflict in the Bible when viewed, and understood in context. The Catholic Church also has a Liturgical Calendar, in which, nearly the entire Bible is read aloud during Mass. I also know that some of the early Protestant Churches accept and use, most of the King James Version (KJV) Bible, although the KJV, at least the older ones, have many books that have been removed…
How many pages from the Bible do you use or need to use to support your beliefs?

All of them.

 

[jericho777]

JL: Are we really free to make up our own teachings or are we bound to hold Christ’s teachings, as proclaimed by those Chirst SENT to TEACH the whole world TILL THE END?

[Mt28:16 Then **THE ELEVEN

disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and **TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.]

Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

[Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?] It is that ONE SENT FELLOWSHIP, the Church the pillar and ground of TRUTH, who alone has the authority to SEND.

JL: Evidentely it is very easy and so say ALL those thousands of contenious denominations, all claiming to be led by the SAME Holy Spirit, in their interpretation of the SAME scripture, yet they do NOT AGREE. Sola scriptura is nothing more than a TOWER OF BABEL confusing the one faith language into thousands. Scattering people of faith, who no longer speak the same FAITH LANGUAGE, into thousands and still doing so. How many denomination has sola scriptura UNITED? How many has it DIVIDED?

Those same scripture also tell you the Church is the pillar and ground of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15, how many throw out that page and the following?

[1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into **THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR] Belonging to that ONE SENT FELLOWSHIP is how we know with assurance TRUTH from ERROR]

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD,]

Paul even checked his teaching with that one sent fellowship, to be sure he was not teaching another doctrine or gospel. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after **I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]

1. Precisely correct we are bound to Christ’s teachings only not those of men or their manmade rules. His only word is the bible.
2. In Luke 10 Jesus appoints 70 others to preach the good news, heal the sick and cast out demons. Paul was appointed by the Lord Himself for his ministry not by the 12.
3. Christ has called all believers to be ambassadors for Him and share the truth of the gospel. The Holy Spirit calls and gives spiritual gifts to equip believers for service.
4. Sola Magesterium relies on sources other than God’s word for faith and morals.
5. Paul is addressing Timothy as to his conduct in the local congregation the Body of Christ. This is not a reference to Rome.
   “ Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
6. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR] Belonging to that ONE SENT FELLOWSHIP is how we know with assurance TRUTH from ERROR]

John is not using this as an opportunity to preach another gospel but what was already delivered.

1. Paul is not talking about an organization but the Body of Christ.
2. Paul and those in Jerusalem only preached the same gospel as was taught by Jesus.

 

[SnakeMauler]

You know, why do Protestants leave about the deutoro canonical books anyway? You know, I guess its like Sirach and Wisdom and Macabees and stuff. Never read Macabees, but Sirach and Wisdom contain some pretty valuable information. Hmm, maybe they didn’t like Sirach because it was written by a guy who’s first name was “Ben Jesus” or something.

Btw, weren’t they deemed “not canon” by Jews AFTER Christianity had been established as a religion (the Jews basically changed their canon/doctrine/beliefs)? That’s like American’s obeying the laws of England AFTER declaring independence, or something.

-Snakemauler

 

[ChristianSurfer]

I’d be careful of painting with too broad a brush here, moose. Lutherans generally talk about Christ building His Church on Peter’s confession of faith, but we recognize the reality of the role of Peter in the entire Church, not too dissimilarly to the way the Orthodox do.

You are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

A lot of scholar protestants come to accept that talking about peters faith doesn’t work. I was talking to one of my Lutheran professors at my university and he said that the previous interpretations were too anti-catholic also Scott Hahn does a good job explaining it. There is no distinction of rock size in the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke. In Greek the reason that the smaller rock was used to describe peter is because it is in the masculine form and wouldn’t make sense otherwise.

 

[JonNC]

A lot of scholar protestants come to accept that talking about peters faith doesn’t work. I was talking to one of my Lutheran professors at my university and he said that the previous interpretations were too anti-catholic also Scott Hahn does a good job explaining it. There is no distinction of rock size in the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke. In Greek the reason that the smaller rock was used to describe peter is because it is in the masculine form and wouldn’t make sense otherwise.

Hi CS,
I think there is something to what you say, in that Christ probably would have worded it differently if he didn’t intend a special role for Peter, though I think even Catholics would say that his confession of faith is the catylist. So, I’d probably side with your professor on the issue.

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

None.

 

[Nicea325]

Bible christians hold to the whole bible.

It seems to me the the catholic bible should be even thicker because of all the dogmas and traditions they have added and hold as equal to scripture.

Sorry,but I disagree. I see many things in the Bible,which Bible Christians do not hold to as claimed.

Second,you have a profound misunderstanding about the development of dogmas and traditions,which is not uncommon. The error you follow is the belief that the RCC teaches that scripture is less than Traditions. Likewise,the belief that Tradition and Scripture are pitted against each other,which is totally false.

There is a difference between Apostolic Tradtions and [t]raditions. No Tradition the RCC holds to contradicts Sacred Scripture. Finally,in case you did not know,every doctrine you accept (Trinity,Incarnation,canon of scripture,etc) is based from Apostolic Tradition and Scripture.

Therefore,you abide to an Apostolic Tradition,whether you care to admit it or not.

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by jlhargus
JL: Are we really free to make up our own teachings or are we bound to hold Christ’s teachings, as proclaimed by those Chirst SENT to TEACH the whole world TILL THE END?

1. Precisely correct we are bound to Christ’s teachings only not those of men or their manmade rules.

JL: You are also partially correct we are not bound by man made teachings and traditions of men, such as sola scriptura, baptism a symbol, rapture, OSAS, dispensationalism, etc… Yet the Church does have the authority from Christ to bind and loose and it will be bound or loosed in heaven.

His only word is the bible.

JL: That is not what the bible says, if so then you should be able to post scripture saying ALL Apostolic Traditions are NOW in the written Tradition of Scripture?

2 THES 2:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether BY word, OR our epistle.

1 THES 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Jn 14: 26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the THINGS that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Timothy received the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, (holy orders, apostolic succession.) It is thru the Holy Spirit that oral apostolic tradition is kept and discerned, by the Church, as opposed to a tradition of men. Scripture tells us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm 3:15 the church’s testimony is of no less value than scripture, because the Holy Spirit is the origin of both and active in both, as the council of Jerusalem wrote to the churches, Act15:28 For IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND TO US

1. In Luke 10 Jesus appoints 70 others to preach the good news, heal the sick and cast out demons. Paul was appointed by the Lord Himself for his ministry not by the 12.

JL: Paul was also an Apostle appointed directly by Christ. [Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, **he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;]

JN 17:18 As thou hast SENT ME into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM into the world. 19 And for their sakes I SANCTIFY MYSELF, THAT THEY ALSO MIGHT BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH. 20 NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE, but FOR THEM ALSO WHICH shall BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 THAT THEY all may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that THOU hast SENT ME.

[Mt28:16 Then THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.]

Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

1. Christ has called all believers to be ambassadors for Him and share the truth of the gospel. The Holy Spirit calls and gives spiritual gifts to equip believers for service.

JL: Only in a secondary meaning the primary meaning IS for those Christ SENT.

2Cor2:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then WE ARE AMBASSADORS OF CHRIST, as though God did beseech YOU BY US: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[jlhargus]

Continued:

1. Sola Magesterium relies on sources other than God’s word for faith and morals.

JL: Not so, there is NO such thing as sola magisterium, just as there is NO such thing as sola scriptura. The magisterium is the servant of the Word of God, whether by WORD or EPISTLE.

2 THES 2:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether BY word, OR our epistle.

1 THES 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Jn 14: 26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the THINGS that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Timothy received the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, Holy Orders, (ordinaton by apostolic succession.)

[2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

It is thru the Holy Spirit that oral Apostolic Tradition is kept and discerned, by the Church, as opposed to a tradition of men. Scripture tells us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm 3:15 the Church’s testimony is of no less value than scripture, because the Holy Spirit is the origin of both and active in both, as the council of Jerusalem wrote to the churches, Act15:28 For IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND TO US

1. Paul is addressing Timothy as to his conduct in the local congregation the Body of Christ. This is not a reference to Rome.
   “ Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth…

JL: Yet Paul still tells us, THE CHURCH is the pillar and ground of TRUTH. There is ONLY ONE household of God, which Christ is building of living stones. Tell me what Church is that in your view? An invisible Church cannot be a pillar and ground of truth.

1. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR] Belonging to that ONE SENT FELLOWSHIP is how we know with assurance TRUTH from ERROR]

John is not using this as an opportunity to preach another gospel but what was already delivered.

JL: Of course it isn’t another gospel. It’s the very gospel once delivered. Listening to US=The Chruch, the pillar and ground of TRUTH, we know TURTH from ERROR.

Original post JL: Eph3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWSHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD,]

1. Paul is not talking about an organization but the Body of Christ.

JL: Of course Paul is talking about the Body of Christ, which IS the VISIBLE an organiized fellowship and BODY OF CHRIST on earth. By which the manifold wisdom of God is KNOWN.

What do you think that Body of Christ is, some invisibe body no one can see, hear, or find in history, or know the names of any of it’s pastors, after the apostles, or what they taught and believed? How could an invisible body be the pillar and ground of truth?

1. Paul and those in Jerusalem only preached the same gospel as was taught by Jesus.

JL: Never the less Paul went by REVELATION to check his teachings, with that Apostolic Fellowship, the Chruch, the pillar and ground of TRUTH, which Christ SENT and PROMISED to lead into ALL TRUTH and the gates of hell would NEVER prevail against it. Lest by any means he should run OR had run in vain.

[Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]

 

[jericho777]

Sorry,but I disagree. I see many things in the Bible,which Bible Christians do not hold to as claimed.

Second,you have a profound misunderstanding about the development of dogmas and traditions,which is not uncommon. The error you follow is the belief that the RCC teaches that scripture is less than Traditions. Likewise,the belief that Tradition and Scripture are pitted against each other,which is totally false.

There is a difference between Apostolic Tradtions and [t]raditions. No Tradition the RCC holds to contradicts Sacred Scripture. Finally,in case you did not know,every doctrine you accept (Trinity,Incarnation,canon of scripture,etc) is based from Apostolic Tradition and Scripture.

Therefore,you abide to an Apostolic Tradition,whether you care to admit it or not.

Is tradition equal to scripture or is it subject to scripture or is scripture subject to tradition? I would say things required for salvation in the first century are insufficient for salvation in the cc today.

I would disagree with your third premise on the basis you use scripture plus tradition to create the dogmas. The trinity is presented in Genesis so I don’t see how you can take credit for it. The incarnation of Christ is found in the OT also. Both OT and NT were made scripture by God not by men.

 

[jericho777]

Continued:

.]

1 Do you think the apostles taught anything that cannot be verified by scripture?

2 The 70 and Paul were directly called by Jesus. Where in scripture does it say that service to God is to be granted through 12 individuals? Besides it is the Holy Spirit who calls to service and gives gifts that enables believers to accomplish His purposes.

3 Refer back to number 2

4 It is your opinion that the magisterium is appointed by God. There is no biblical reference to them. The revealed word of God is the past tense. They were reinforcing what was already taught not saying there would be revelations 2000 years later.

5 The believers in Christ are the church not a building or an organization. Jesus gave His life for His bride not an organization.

6 You are not the ‘us’ spoken of in scripture.

7 The Body of Christ is groups of believers coming together in Spirit and in Truth to worship the King of Glory and do His will. There were many named groups of believers named in scripture some good and some not so good.

8 The direct revelation Paul had was from Jesus Himself. There was not anything that Paul taught that violated revealed scripture or the gospel message.

 

[ChristianSurfer]

Hey jericho777 quick question(hopefully )

Based off of sola scriptura, how do you rationalize the church having the authority to canonize the Bible at the Council of Laodicea. What about scripture that was excluded not because it was factually or theologically incorrect but because it wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit. There are dozens upon dozens of texts labeling themselves as Gospels in the early times but the church excluded it because She determined that it was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. How do the church fathers that met at the Council of Laodicea get the discernment from the Holy Spirit if there is no authority? Keep in mind there way many conflicting views by this time non-trinitarian, gnostic etc. the council restricted the readings in church to only the canonical books.

 

[jericho777]

Hey jericho777 quick question(hopefully )

Based off of sola scriptura, how do you rationalize the church having the authority to canonize the Bible at the Council of Laodicea. What about scripture that was excluded not because it was factually or theologically incorrect but because it wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit. There are dozens upon dozens of texts labeling themselves as Gospels in the early times but the church excluded it because She determined that it was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. How do the church fathers that met at the Council of Laodicea get the discernment from the Holy Spirit if there is no authority? Keep in mind there way many conflicting views by this time non-trinitarian, gnostic etc. the council restricted the readings in church to only the canonical books.

I know what you mean surfer I’ll try for a quick answer

Scripture was scripture before it was canonized. The Holy Spirit willed the canonization of scripture apart from the willingness of men. Also scripture itself verifies its authenticity.

You have answered the second question by yourself…the other works were not inspired by the Holy Spirit. You have to ask yourself would God allow anything but His word to be canonized? No! Did canonization come by the will of men or the will of God?

Though struggles seem hard or impossible to us they aren’t to God. He ensures His sovereign will come to pass. God willed the OT also, why is it not fair to think He would not do it again.

 

[JonNC]

Hey jericho777 quick question(hopefully )

Based off of sola scriptura, how do you rationalize the church having the authority to canonize the Bible at the Council of Laodicea. What about scripture that was excluded not because it was factually or theologically incorrect but because it wasn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit. There are dozens upon dozens of texts labeling themselves as Gospels in the early times but the church excluded it because She determined that it was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. How do the church fathers that met at the Council of Laodicea get the discernment from the Holy Spirit if there is no authority? Keep in mind there way many conflicting views by this time non-trinitarian, gnostic etc. the council restricted the readings in church to only the canonical books.

Laodicea was not an ecumenical council. It was a regional council.
Here are the books from the 60th canon of Laodicea:

1. It is proper to recognize as many books as these: of the Old Testament, 1. the Genesis of the world; 2. the Exodus from Egypt; 3. Leviticus; 4. Numbers; 5. Deuteronomy; 6. Joshua the son of Nun; 7. Judges and Ruth; 8. Esther; 9. First and Second Kings *; 10. Third and Fourth Kings *; 11. First and Second Chronicles; 12. First and Second Ezra *; 13. the book of one hundred and fifty Psalms; 14. the Proverbs of Solomon; 15. Ecclesiastes; 16. Song of Songs; 17. Job; 18. the Twelve [minor] Prophets; 19. Isaiah; 20. Jeremiah and Baruch, Lamentations and the Epistle [of Jeremiah]; 21. Ezekiel; 22. Daniel. And the books of the New Testament: 4 Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles; seven catholic epistles, namely, 1 of James, 2 of Peter, 3 of John, 1 of Jude; fourteen epistles of Paul, 1 to the Romans, 2 to the Corinthians, 1 to the Galatians, 1 to the Ephesians, 1 to the Philippians, 1 to the Colossians, 2 to the Thessalonians, 1 to the Hebrews, 2 to Timothy, 1 to Titus, and 1 to Philemon. ***

There seems to be some missing, including Revelation.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Lutherans, generally, use the same lectionary as the Catholic Church.

I believe it was Melanchthon who advised that for every verse one cites to support a belief, they should find three others that refute it. The point being, we must use all of scripture, not proof texts. The Lutheran Confessions even reference the Deutero-Canon.

Jon

Thanks Jon, I did not know this.