How many pages from the Bible do you use or need to use to support your beliefs?

[guanophore]

Bible christians hold to the whole bible.

It seems to me the the catholic bible should be even thicker because of all the dogmas and traditions they have added and hold as equal to scripture.

I am always amazed when I read things like this. It seems to indicate that the person has no clue where the Bible came from!

It also is evidence of very little knowledge of the history of the faith. So much has been subtracted by the reformers and their descendents so as to make the original Apostolic faith unrecognizeable. Also, they do not realize that what they have is a truncated version of the original, and think we “added”.

I do think it is accurate to say that our faith is “thicker”, as well as the collection of documents of the faith.

It is also accurate to say that Catholics “added”. In this case, Catholics “added” 27 books to the bible, and called them the NT.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks Jon, I did not know this.

On the common lectionary,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Common_Lectionary

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Except for the part that talks about Christ building His Church on Peter. And that the gates of hades will not prevail against it. And also the part that says that faith without works is dead. Oh, and also the institution of the Eucharist. And a few other parts.

Protestants have these parts in their Bible. But they just ignore them

This is a sweeping generalization about “Protestants”. The vast majority of Protestants hold many of these doctrines in common with Catholicism. there are some that ignore everything that is Catholic, but to paint them all with the same brush is prejudicial.

 

[StevenFrancis]

You know, as time goes on, and I get deeper into the Church, and God’s movement in me becomes stronger, I feel less and less of need to support my beliefs. I don’t think I’ll end up an apologist. I’m starting to lean more towards being a disciple. I hope that people will listen when the Word of God is either shown them, or lived out in front of them by His various followers. I love that there ARE apologists and debater to keep the argumentative, and hard hearted engaged in whatever way they need to be engaged. I just love God. I’m blown away at what He’s done in my life, and the lives of others who I know and see with my own eyes. God is love. Love was incarnated as a human, (yet divine), person, and walked among us. He took unto Himself all of our sin and iniquity, and died with us in His heart, though we were not even yet born into the world. He set up a path to go to Him. He has prepared OUR OWN ETERNAL HOME. I’m feeling like crying. There is nothing. Not a single thing I can think of in my life to deserve this. My life was one of sin and degradation. Yet He says it’s true, if I just love Him. I choose to believe Him, because my life before He entered my heart was walking death.

God is what is. Jesus Christ is/was God among us. This is the truth. Man can banty this about until the last day, but I would suppose he’d be better off at that time if he’s gone to a crippled neighbor’s house to see if they can do some work for them in the yard. If they read an elderly person some scripture, or played checkers with them at a nursing home. If they made a few sandwiches and took them to some of the homeless in their town. If they visit the sick. Those in jail etc. You get the idea. This is the Gospel. If you just live it, it will become real enough. Jesus will be all over you, and the Holy Spirit will move through you, and won’t deny Him any longer with words and arguments.

Enter RCIA. At least as an inquirer. There’s no fee that I was charged, and many people I went with decided to leave after a while. But everyone who came was changed. There is no denying it. I SEE God work every day of my life. I am grateful every morning and evening. I don’t do nearly enough for others, because I’m quite seriously ill myself, but I’ll be right back at it when I’m well. The point is, when Jesus took hold of me, I died to self, and am a new creation.

Oh…I’m rambling, but the living of the Gospels is the greatest tool. Participating in the sacramental life. Being obedient, and losing ourselves in love. People see that. They’ll come to a low point in their life. Everybody does. And perhaps, remembering a Christian friend, they’ll try obedience instead of anger.

God bless one and all. I know, this is barely even on topic, and I apologize.

Peace,

Steven

 

[jlhargus]

Jericho: 2 The 70 and Paul were directly called by Jesus. Where in scripture does it say that service to God is to be granted through 12 individuals? Besides it is the Holy Spirit who calls to service and gives gifts that enables believers to accomplish His purposes.

JL: I will give you the long version;

As a Catholic convert from a non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church, this is my Scriptural reasons and understanding for becoming a member of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH the living VISIBLE FELLOWSHIP and body, of the PRESENTS of Christ on earth. That Church Christ is building from living stones with Peter as the visible ROCK of faith unity.

What the group gathered and SENT by Christ was called at any given time or place does not mater in the lest. What matters is continuity with that One SENT Fellowship. Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?

[Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, **he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;]

JN 17:18 As thou hast SENT ME into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM into the world. 19 And for their sakes I SANCTIFY MYSELF, THAT THEY ALSO MIGHT BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH. 20 NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE, but FOR THEM ALSO WHICH shall BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 THAT THEY all may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that THOU hast SENT ME.

Christ chose, prayed for and SENT one specific VISIBLE group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he sanctified through the truth. Hearing their word and being ONE in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world.

Mt28:16 Then THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and **TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.

The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught. They were to go to ALL nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

DN 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGODM which shall never be destroyed and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER,

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord GOD SHALL GIVE unto HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END.

[Lk22:29 And I APPOINT unto YOU A KINGDOM, AS MY FATHER hath APPOINTED unto ME; 30 THAT YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. 31 And THE LORD SAID, Simon, SIMON, behold, SATAN HATH DESIRED TO HAVE YOU, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU AS WHEAT: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR **THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and WHEN thou art CONVERTED, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.

The apostles sit on thrones judging, they also eat and drink at Christ’s table in his kingdom. Catholics are gathered in union with our bishops around the table of the Lord where we eat and drink at every mass.

When Peter is converted HIS FAITH WILL NEVER FAIL, he is to STRENGTHEN ALL THE BRETHREN as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter.

JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” [THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood.

[Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED: AND the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ **DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS.] Breaking of Bread is another term for mass. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

continued:

[1Cor1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. 10 Now I BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY the name of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and IN THE SAME JUDGMENT.] One fellowship, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and God of all no matter where it is located in the world. Lk24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER: but TARRY ye IN the city of JERUSALEM, UNTIL YE BE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU. Jn16:13 Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

Apostolic succession thru the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable an ordained minister to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.

Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and **UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.]

I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They GO OUT on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology.

[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]

US would be the Church. The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority SENT by ChrisT. Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order,
[Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE **ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.]

 

[jlhargus]

continued;

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one fellowship Christ sent to teach all nations, all he commanded, Mt 28:20. He promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, to those whom Christ send we must listen. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17.

I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead us in all truth, not hit and miss truth. To follow those, Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught. The Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I WAS MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace OF GOD given unto me BY the effectual WORKING OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And **TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWSHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,]

2Cor5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD did BESEECH YOU BY US: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Two of the greatest brothers, Peter and Paul, went from Palestine to Rome, where both were martyred. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna.

So in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of David, of which Christ is now king, Peter is appointed Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16.

Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the regenerated spiritual Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones. [Eph3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 **Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, world without end. Amen.]

Jericho: 3 Refer back to number 2

JL: I don’t know which of my remarks this is refering to, so I refer you back to my answer for number 2.

 

[jericho777]

CONTINUED:

continued:

continued;

There is no way I can respond to all this.I would be really old before I could even type it.

 

[estesbob]

I know what you mean surfer I’ll try for a quick answer

Scripture was scripture before it was canonized. The Holy Spirit willed the canonization of scripture apart from the willingness of men. Also scripture itself verifies its authenticity.

You have answered the second question by yourself…the other works were not inspired by the Holy Spirit. You have to ask yourself would God allow anything but His word to be canonized? No! Did canonization come by the will of men or the will of God?

Though struggles seem hard or impossible to us they aren’t to God. He ensures His sovereign will come to pass. God willed the OT also, why is it not fair to think He would not do it again.

Why do you accept the Church’s authority to set the Canon but reject it in everything else? And the Old testament Canon you use is different than that that was originally set out. Appears that Sola Sciptura requires a lot of selective , subjective judgement.

 

[jlhargus]

There is no way I can respond to all this.I would be really old before I could even type it.

JL: That’s fine thanks for reading it, that’s all I care about. I can go overboard sometimes

 

[jericho777]

Why do you accept the Church’s authority to set the Canon but reject it in everything else? And the Old testament Canon you use is different than that that was originally set out. Appears that Sola Sciptura requires a lot of selective , subjective judgement.

AS I said it was the Holy Spirit that ordained scripture not men.

It only requires discernment of the facts as to the origin of the OT.

 

[jericho777]

JL: That’s fine thanks for reading it, that’s all I care about. I can go overboard sometimes

Seriously it must have taken you several hours to compose and type all that. Yes I did read it. Thank you.

 

[Nicea325]

Is tradition equal to scripture or is it subject to scripture or is scripture subject to tradition? I would say things required for salvation in the first century are insufficient for salvation in the cc today.

I would disagree with your third premise on the basis you use scripture plus tradition to create the dogmas. The trinity is presented in Genesis so I don’t see how you can take credit for it. The incarnation of Christ is found in the OT also. Both OT and NT were made scripture by God not by men.

And there lies your error by practicing an either/or dichotomy,which is very common among non-Catholics. Scripture and Tradition go hand-in-hand,not the position that one is less inferior to the other.

I would disagree with your third premise on the basis you use scripture plus tradition to create the dogmas.

Wrong! Scripture is not explicit on everything.Provide the chapter(s) and verse(s) where the Bible provides the canon of scripture? Which books were considered inspired?

The trinity is presented in Genesis so I don’t see how you can take credit for it.

Wrong! The early church did not have a one volume book called the Bible for nearly 400 years.Evidently you do not know the development of doctrines. The Bible is merely implicit about the Trinity,not explicit.You are following the same path of the Arians who denied Christ divinity. And why? Because they only used certain passages in scripture to support their view and isolated it. Plus they also could not find anything explicit to support Christ divinity. How did the church respond? By using the entire context of the Bible and by following the Apostolic Traditions that Jesus is God. And why? Because at the time there was no NT in a completed form until at least 110 A.D.

So you are claiming the Bible gave us the complexity and nature of the three distinct persons of the Trinity?

The incarnation of Christ is found in the OT also. Both OT and NT were made scripture by God not by men

It is not a question of what God willed,but a question HOW he did it? He used men to write down what He inspired,thus the doctrines of the Incarnation,Trinity,etc were all formulated and made official by bishops,because Jesus promised to guide His Church.

 

[MaryTeresa2]

You know, as time goes on, and I get deeper into the Church, and God’s movement in me becomes stronger, I feel less and less of need to support my beliefs. I don’t think I’ll end up an apologist. I’m starting to lean more towards being a disciple. I hope that people will listen when the Word of God is either shown them, or lived out in front of them by His various followers. I love that there ARE apologists and debater to keep the argumentative, and hard hearted engaged in whatever way they need to be engaged. I just love God. I’m blown away at what He’s done in my life, and the lives of others who I know and see with my own eyes. God is love. Love was incarnated as a human, (yet divine), person, and walked among us. He took unto Himself all of our sin and iniquity, and died with us in His heart, though we were not even yet born into the world. He set up a path to go to Him. He has prepared OUR OWN ETERNAL HOME. I’m feeling like crying. There is nothing. Not a single thing I can think of in my life to deserve this. My life was one of sin and degradation. Yet He says it’s true, if I just love Him. I choose to believe Him, because my life before He entered my heart was walking death.

God is what is. Jesus Christ is/was God among us. This is the truth. Man can banty this about until the last day, but I would suppose he’d be better off at that time if he’s gone to a crippled neighbor’s house to see if they can do some work for them in the yard. If they read an elderly person some scripture, or played checkers with them at a nursing home. If they made a few sandwiches and took them to some of the homeless in their town. If they visit the sick. Those in jail etc. You get the idea. This is the Gospel. If you just live it, it will become real enough. Jesus will be all over you, and the Holy Spirit will move through you, and won’t deny Him any longer with words and arguments.

Enter RCIA. At least as an inquirer. There’s no fee that I was charged, and many people I went with decided to leave after a while. But everyone who came was changed. There is no denying it. I SEE God work every day of my life. I am grateful every morning and evening. I don’t do nearly enough for others, because I’m quite seriously ill myself, but I’ll be right back at it when I’m well. The point is, when Jesus took hold of me, I died to self, and am a new creation.

Oh…I’m rambling, but the living of the Gospels is the greatest tool. Participating in the sacramental life. Being obedient, and losing ourselves in love. People see that. They’ll come to a low point in their life. Everybody does. And perhaps, remembering a Christian friend, they’ll try obedience instead of anger.

God bless one and all. I know, this is barely even on topic, and I apologize.

Peace,

Steven

No apology needed, well said!
Oral and written traditions Paul clearly states. Who spoke and wrote these? Who authored the NT? The first Christians, the Church, the one, the universal, the catholic Church, founded by Jesus upon Peter. He only established one church and it happened way back when, not a couple of hundred years ago. Straight away if one only goes by scripture then why not still be observing the Sabbath from Friday midnight until Saturday midnight? That’s what’s in scripture. From the very git-go that tradition grew with the fledgling church and is refereed to as the Lord’s day in honor of Jesus’ resurrection and everyone is going on Sunday now, Catholics and Protestants with exception of 7th Day Adventists, I believe. Anyway as Steven said we can argue til the cows come home but come see for yourself… I converted 36 yrs ago, I know!

 

[jericho777]

And there lies your error by practicing an either/or dichotomy,which is very common among non-Catholics. Scripture and Tradition go hand-in-hand,not the position that one is less inferior to the other…

I disagree.

Wrong! Scripture is not explicit on everything.Provide the chapter(s) and verse(s) where the Bible provides the canon of scripture? Which books were considered inspired?.

Neither the OT or NT provide an index but yet Paul refers to the OT as scripture and its power. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
and Peter refers to Pauls writings as scripture.

Wrong! The early church did not have a one volume book called the Bible for nearly 400 years.Evidently you do not know the development of doctrines. The Bible is merely implicit about the Trinity,not explicit.You are following the same path of the Arians who denied Christ divinity. And why? Because they only used certain passages in scripture to support their view and isolated it. Plus they also could not find anything explicit to support Christ divinity. How did the church respond? By using the entire context of the Bible and by following the Apostolic Traditions that Jesus is God. And why? Because at the time there was no NT in a completed form until at least 110 A.D. .

Yet these inspired works strengthened the early churches. I have demonstrated to JW’s through scripture OT/NT the Trinity the Holy Spirit and the Divinity of Jesus. You really don’t want me to have to prove to you that jesus is God from the scriptures.

So you are claiming the Bible gave us the complexity and nature of the three distinct persons of the Trinity?.

Yes.

It is not a question of what God willed,but a question HOW he did it? He used men to write down what He inspired,thus the doctrines of the Incarnation,Trinity,etc were all formulated and made official by bishops,because Jesus promised to guide His Church.

The heart of the king is in the hands of the LORD. They had no choice but to do the will of God.

 

[DrDave]

AS I said it was the Holy Spirit that ordained scripture not men.

But it was MEN who issued the delarations! So either 1) these men acting as a body were guided by the Holy Spirit to come to the right answer, or 2) they just chanced upon the right answer (Kindof how the JW’s view the Protestant Canon - A breakaway group of an apostate Church just happened to come up with what they hold to be the canon of scripture)

If it was 1, how can you categorically rule out the possibility that the Holy Spirit didn’t guide them in their other declarations regarding faith and morals (and might still be doing so)?

If it was 2, how could you possibly know (apart from the Holy Spirit revealing to you directly what the Canon of Scripture was and you later verifying it against what you found on your bookshelf )?

Regards Doc

 

[Holly3278]

I need all of them. The entire Bible (and I do mean the complete Bible that contains the Deuterocanonicals) is what I need to support my belief system. But that’s not all. I also need Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

 

[guanophore]

Is tradition equal to scripture or is it subject to scripture or is scripture subject to tradition?

They are two equal strands entwined together.

I would say things required for salvation in the first century are insufficient for salvation in the cc today.

This is very interesting. I wonder what it means?

The things required for salvation have not changed.

I would disagree with your third premise on the basis you use scripture plus tradition to create the dogmas. The trinity is presented in Genesis   so I don’t see how you can take credit for it. The incarnation of Christ is found in the OT also. Both OT and NT were made scripture by God not by men.

It is not a matter of “credit”. If you know anything about modern bible interpretation, you know that there are large communities that believe they are “christian” yet can “prove” from the bible that the Trinity does not exist.

 

[guanophore]

1 Do you think the apostles taught anything that cannot be verified by scripture?

Yes and no. Scripture was never intended to be a full compendium of the faith. The reason we see the evidence of the Sacred Tradition in Scripture is because we have accepted it already. I note that many “bible Christians” are unable to verify some of the Apostolic Teachings because they interpret the scripture differently.

Catholics interpret scripture in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught. Modern American Evangelicals interpret Scripture according to what the Reformers believed and taughtm, as well as new doctrines that have been formulated upon their thought. These have the effect of taking the reader quite a distance from the Apostolic faith.

2 The 70 and Paul were directly called by Jesus. Where in scripture does it say that service to God is to be granted through 12 individuals?

Were you under the misapprehension that this is what the Catholic Church believes?

Besides it is the Holy Spirit who calls to service and gives gifts that enables believers to accomplish His purposes.

Yes, and such gifts and service are always confirmed by the Church, under whose authority they are to be used.

4 It is your opinion that the magisterium is appointed by God. There is no biblical reference to them.

Well, we read it differently!

Catholics see the magesterium all through the Bible.

The revealed word of God is the past tense. They were reinforcing what was already taught not saying there would be revelations 2000 years later.

This is a Catholic doctrine. The Apostles taught that there was a once for all deposit of faith to the Church, and that public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle.

5 The believers in Christ are the church not a building or an organization. Jesus gave His life for His bride not an organization.

The Church founded by Christ is heirarchical and authoritative.

6 You are not the ‘us’ spoken of in scripture.

By whose authority do you determine this?

And if we say we are the “us” who are you to say we are not?

7 The Body of Christ is groups of believers coming together in Spirit and in Truth to worship the King of Glory and do His will. There were many named groups of believers named in scripture some good and some not so good.

Those in unity with the Apostles and their teaching are called "catholic"and are ONE Church that is the same all over the world.

8 The direct revelation Paul had was from Jesus Himself. There was not anything that Paul taught that violated revealed scripture or the gospel message.

Indeed, Paul’s teaching was completly Catholic. This is why there is no CAtholic Teaching that violates revealed scripture. Both the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scripture come from the same Source, that is why they cannot contradict.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit willed the canonization of scripture apart from the willingness of men.

This is a very interesting notion. Where do you find this in the bible?

Also, if the HS wished to act “apart from the willigness of men” then why does scxripture itself attest that Scripture came from “men, moved by the Spirit, spoke from God”. Seems to me like the HS was interested in involving people.

Why would there be an assumption that men were “unwilling”? Are you really of the opinion that there were no willing Christians for the first 400 years of the church?

Also scripture itself verifies its authenticity.

Yes and no. There is no table of contents included in the Bible.

Scripture does attest to its’ authenticity, but who attests that it is scripture?

the other works were not inspired by the Holy Spirit. You have to ask yourself would God allow anything but His word to be canonized? No! Did canonization come by the will of men or the will of God?

Both. Like all the decisions in the Church that are made through the magesterium, the teaching authority appointed by God works with the HS to make such decisions,

  God willed the OT also, why is it not fair to think He would not do it again.

Did you think Catholics believe that God did not will the NT?