How many pages from the Bible do you use or need to use to support your beliefs?

[jericho777]

As it does yours. I am sure that you had already been taught the Trinity and Sola Scriptura before you first picked up a Bible. The difference between our seperated bretheren and Catholics is we aknowledge we use tradition and we aknowledge we are not qualified to interpret Scripture for ouselves or anyone else.

Actually I was raised catholic 28 years. And after reading the bible for myself I could a difference between what I was taught and what the bible said.

I don’t consider myself protestant either I’m not protesting anything. I seek to follow what the bible says irrespective of any tradition.

 

[guanophore]

AS to jw’s you don’t want to know what they say about you all.

If we could not toleraty calumny and insults, believe me, we would not be hanging on CAF.

What many Protestants don’t realize is that their conclusion is logical. Unless God abandoned the CC, justification for the Reformation does not exist.

All denominations define themselves by which part of Catholicism they reject.

It is absolutely the Holy Spirit who ordained the word of God when it was written not when it was canonized.

Do you mean to say that the HS was not involved in the canonization of the Scriptures?

I believe scripture reveals itself to be so based on prophetic accuracy, the Word declaring itself to be so and its power to reveal God and bring them to repentence.

All these things are true, certainly, but not all of these are present in all the books declared as inspired. for example, how do we know who wrote the first gospel?

1 We will have to disagree on this point as I regard scripture as higher.

I am curious how you get this from scripture, which states something different

2 I‘m referring to the dogmas and doctrines added by the church. Things that didn’t exist when scripture was penned. Every time a new dogma is added it’s an additional belief requirement for salvation.

No, Jericho. Clearly you have misunderstood the nature of dogma and doctrine. The doctrines were complete a the close of public revelation, and the death of the last apostles. Nothing can be "added"to the faith, since it was given “once for all”. It has been completed,

Dogmas are prounouncements and definitions that are created to clarify the once for all deposit of faith. For example, when the Arians disputed the nature of Christ as fully human and fully divine, the Church dogmatized the hypostatic union. Same with the Trinity. This word is not found in scripture.

 3 This is because they don’t want to accept the bible as final authority. They use councils or other proof texts to interpret scripture. They have to do this because they have to deny the bible somehow.

You are mistaken again, Jericho. The bible cannot weild authority, because this is an activity that is reserved to persons.

Since the CC produced the bible, everything in it is consistent with Catholic Teaching. There is no need to deny any of it. What we deny are the modern interpretations of it that are contrary to the faith we received from the Apostles.

 

[adrift]

2 You all hold that tradition is equal to scripture. But in practice tradition drives your interpretation of scripture. Leading to all the dogmas and doctrines that cannot be attributed to scripture

I am sorry that you missed my post. The Bible is Tradition. No where did Jesus say write down what I told you. No where in Scripture does it say that all that Jesus taught was written down. In fact, it says the opposite.

To reach an understading of each other point of view, I believe you need to define your terms. What do you mean by tradition and what does the Catholic Church mean.
Here is a link to what is meant by Tradition.

Jesus did not say go and write down everything I have told you. What He did say was go and preach.

 

[guanophore]

1 I believe scripture is all that is needed for salvation information with God.

If this is true, then why do the scriptures say the opposite?

Are there other useless and unimportant activities you believe Jesus’ engaged in, besides the founding of His Church?

How did people get saved before there was a bible in 382?

Are you saying that people who don’t have a bible, or can’t read cannot be saved?

If anyone does not go and verify what they believe with scripture they are bound to make mistakes.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

2 The cc limits believers’ service through a bureaucratic system. They don’t believe God can call and use an individual apart from their religious system. IE Paul and the 70 were not called through apostolic tradition.

Can you elaborate on this point please? The two examples you gave do not apply to your assertion, because Paul was an apostle, and one of the originators of Apostolic Tradition, and the 70 were sent out before Jesus founded the Church.

5 I’m confused then if all revelations of faith ended with the last apostle then where do additional beliefs needed for salvation come from? (dogmas) Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write to you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write to you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.

The dogmas are declarations of the Apostolic Teaching.They are made because there are rampant heresies that deny the once for all deposit of faith that wasd delivered to the Church. There are no new teachings contained in them. For example, the Apsotles taught the Trinity, though they did not use the word. When heresies arose about the nature of God, the word Trinity was chosen by the church, and defined so as to reflect the Apostolic faith.

6 The body makes the church. The church doesn’t make the body.

I would say that both of these fall short as a definition of Church. Church begins with the Head, who is Christ, and the Soul, which is the HS. Then she is organized around the authority appointed by Christ.

8 I agree catholic means universal. But the church structure in the bible was semi autonomous groups of believers. Elders in each congregation watched over their own flock of believers.

The elders that watch over the flock are in unity with one another because they all espouse the same Faith. They are in communion with the succession of the Apostles.
Authority is passed on by those to whom it was given by God.

 The way power flows it is from Rome to the local congregation and not from God to the local congregation directly. That’s a big difference.

I am sorry I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. The “power” does not “flow from Rome”. the power of the Church flows from the HS, who is the Soul of the Church.
It may be you are referring to authority? Authority flows from those to whom it was given by Christ. This is not limited to, nor does it originate, in Rome.

9 Paul was not using “T”radition to preach the gospel. Because you use “T”radition you can justify your belief system. I don’t see ”T”radition coming from the same source as Scripture.

Yes, Paul was using Sacred Tradition to preach the Gospel, along with private revelations that he was given by Christ. Paul met with the other Apostles to make sure the gospel he preached was consistent with theirs.

Of course you canot see Tradititon coming from God! If you did, you would have an obligation to obey it. As it is, you can justify disobedience by clinging to the idea that it does not exist.

Our belief system does not need to be “justified” by Sacred Tradition. Jesus founded His Church and appointed authority over it. This is a fact, and it exists quite outside of any justification on my part.

 

[guanophore]

1 The Holy Spirit authors and ordains scripture. Therefore He brings it to pass. Men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote scripture. It was not their own ideas they wrote but the Word of God as they were inspired to write. God uses men to accomplish His will.

Yes the HS is the primary author, but He uses an incarnational principle. He works through mortal fallible men to produce that which is inerrant and inspired.

What does it mean to “ordain scripture”?

2 There doesn’t have to be. 2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I am sorry that I cannot follow your number system. I am not sure what this is a response to in my post. I think you are saying that it is not necessary for Scripture to have anyone testify that it is scripture. Do you know anything about how the canon developed?

3 I disagree.

Again I am not sure what you are responding to here. I think you are saying that the Church does not need to have authority?

Jesus is the living Word of God that was made flesh.All His teachings are the Word of God.

So, at what point to you think the teachings of the Word of God that existed in the Church before scripture “expired”, and why did they?

God ordained what would and what would not be written down. WE certainly have enough revealed word to instruct us in our lives.

Indeed God did decide what was written, and we have good instruction from it. However, if what you are saying is true (it is enough) then there is no need for a Chruch, and for pastors and teachers.

As you said about the reference in John I’m paraphrasing. “if all that He said and done were written down all the books in the world could not contain them.”

Why is what was not written of less value than what was?

 

[guanophore]

I would contend that God has put into His word all that we need to follow.

We are in agreement on this point. However, we also understand that the Word of God cannot be confined to the Scripture.

Actually I was raised catholic 28 years. And after reading the bible for myself I could a difference between what I was taught and what the bible said.

Yes, this happened to a lot of us. For myself, I did not understand that the Teaching of the Church came from the same Source as the Scripture, and when I saw what I thought was a discrepancy, I assumed the probem was the Church, rather than my own perceptions. It is so human to blame our shortcomings on others.

Now I know that, if there appear to be discrepancies, it is because I don’t understand one, the other, or both. In my case, it was both!

Have you considered that what the bible says, and what you THINK it says, may be different?

I don’t consider myself protestant either I’m not protesting anything. I seek to follow what the bible says irrespective of any tradition.

Yes, you are Protestant. If you reject the Teachings of the Catholic faith in which you were baptized, then you are protesting Catholicism.

In fact, the very idea of “following what the bible says” is in itself an extrascriptural tradition.

Glad you are here at CAF, Jer. I pray that all your differences may be resolved.

 

[jericho777]

If we could not toleraty calumny and insults, believe me, we would not be hanging on CAF.

What many Protestants don’t realize is that their conclusion is logical. Unless God abandoned the CC, justification for the Reformation does not exist.

All denominations define themselves by which part of Catholicism they reject.

Do you mean to say that the HS was not involved in the canonization of the Scriptures?

All these things are true, certainly, but not all of these are present in all the books declared as inspired. for example, how do we know who wrote the first gospel?

I am curious how you get this from scripture, which states something different

No, Jericho. Clearly you have misunderstood the nature of dogma and doctrine. The doctrines were complete a the close of public revelation, and the death of the last apostles. Nothing can be "added"to the faith, since it was given “once for all”. It has been completed,

Dogmas are prounouncements and definitions that are created to clarify the once for all deposit of faith. For example, when the Arians disputed the nature of Christ as fully human and fully divine, the Church dogmatized the hypostatic union. Same with the Trinity. This word is not found in scripture.

You are mistaken again, Jericho. The bible cannot weild authority, because this is an activity that is reserved to persons.

Since the CC produced the bible, everything in it is consistent with Catholic Teaching. There is no need to deny any of it. What we deny are the modern interpretations of it that are contrary to the faith we received from the Apostles.

1 I don’t define my faith based on anything for or against the cc.

2 The Holy Spirit was present and it was His will that was accomplished.

3 Not every book contains all that the other books contain but all are none the less inspired.

4 No it doesn’t. You all act like there are some missing parts of scripture that you have found. You use these to justify things that are not in the bible. I believe what was referred to as oral was written down in scripture for our benefit. God would not leave to question something that is important.

5 I agree nothing can be “added” to the faith, since it was given “once for all” but the fact remains there are still dogmas and doctrines that are not in the bible. I know you disagree but that’s how I see it.

I would dare say the requirement for salvation in both OT and NT are the same. In the OT it was looking forward to the cross for the blood of animals could never save anyone. It was a temporary covering. In the NT we look back to the cross and Christ’s finished work. It’s that simple.

I think Christ’s humanity and deity are plain from His purpose and mission in life. After His death it became clear as to His nature. No matter what the bible teaches there are people who will deny it. The bible even teaches people will deny the deity of Jesus.

6 Just violate the word of God and see what happens.

Since men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit authored scripture it cannot be inconsistent with the will of God. I also think we should hold to what the bible teaches.

 

[guanophore]

1 The apostles only taught what can be verified by the word of God.

Really? Where does it say that in scripture?

How can you know that the books you call the NT are really scripture, since the Apostels did not leave a table of contents of what belongs there?

There is more than enough scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. You like other religions try to fudge your way to increasing doctrine and dogma beyond the breath of scripture.

Clearly there is plenty of evidence to the contrary as well, which is why we have so many non-trinitarian “bible christains”.

There can be differences of opinion on everything the bible says.

Indeed. They are as ubiquitious as belly buttons.

Paul tells Timothy in 2 Tim 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Indeed, even though only the OT existed at that time. Could you imagine living a Christian life without the NT? Thati s what Timothy and Paul did.

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Indeed, scripture is important, but it does not say “all sufficient”. It says “useful”. Who mght be using it? I wonder if this is where the Church Jesus founded might come in? What does Eph. say about whose job it is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry?

Therefore all scripture is sufficient for the life of the believer it does not say traditions.

Actually, it does say traditions, but it seems that you conveniently ignore those verses.

2 You all hold that tradition is equal to scripture. But in practice tradition drives your interpretation of scripture. Leading to all the dogmas and doctrines that cannot be attributed to scripture

Yes, this is true. Sacred Tradition is the lens through which we understand scripture. We approach it with preconceived notions, such as, God is Triune. Because we have this apostolic teaching, we can only understand what is written from the point of view that it does not contradict the faith that was handed to us.

You are also right about the dogmas and doctrines. The Catholic Church is not a “bible church” as so many are today, who try to extrapolate how the Christian life should be lived through the pages of the book. None of our doctrine has it;s source in scripture.

The doctrines committed to us from Jesus through the Apostles were whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written, and they did not cease to be the Word of God after some of it was written down.

The NT is the reflection of the Catholic faith, not the source of it.

 

[guanophore]

1 I don’t define my faith based on anything for or against the cc.-

I am sure it seems that way to you, but you have adopted quite a few anti-Catholic ideas. I am sure they did not come to you that way. It is a consequence of the “bible christian” movement.

2 The Holy Spirit was present and it was His will that was accomplished.

Indeed, we are in agreement on this point. The HS chose to work through Catholics, and the Catholic Church to write, preserve, promulgate and canonize the NT. There is nothing in it that does not agree with Catholic theology.

3 Not every book contains all that the other books contain but all are none the less inspired.

But how do you KNOW they are inspired. What is the source of your evidence?
Why is not the Letter of Barnabas included? Why not the Shephed of Hermas? Or the Didache?

4 No it doesn’t. You all act like there are some missing parts of scripture that you have found. You use these to justify things that are not in the bible.

 I believe what was referred to as oral was written down in scripture for our benefit. God would not leave to question something that is important.

Some of it was written. What was written was not intended to replace the Church He founded, which is repsonsible to resolve questions about what is important. You are right, He did not leave us orphaned. Did you look in Eph. to see whose duty it is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry? The Scripture is useful to them in this task.

5 I agree nothing can be “added” to the faith, since it was given “once for all” but the fact remains there are still dogmas and doctrines that are not in the bible. I know you disagree but that’s how I see it.

The fact that you do not “see” them does not mean they are not present. It is difficult to “see” things when you are reading with blidners on.

I think Christ’s humanity and deity are plain from His purpose and mission in life. After His death it became clear as to His nature. No matter what the bible teaches there are people who will deny it. The bible even teaches people will deny the deity of Jesus.

Indeed, and there are many people who read the same bible you do, and reach opposite conclusions. They are wearing a different set of filters, or blinders.

6 Just violate the word of God and see what happens.

Jesus, who is the Living Word of God is the authority over all. He wields authority because He is a Person. Books do not weild authority. They don’t have the qualities necessary.

Since men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit authored scripture it cannot be inconsistent with the will of God. I also think we should hold to what the bible teaches.

The bible does not “teach” Jer. People teach. Teaching is an activity that can only be accomplished by people. When people think they are taught by scripture, it is because they are teaching themselves, based upon what they read. That is why there are so many different and opposing “teachings” among bible christians.

 

[DrDave]

I would contend that God has put into His word all that we need to follow.

So the question becomes WHY would you contend this?
a) because you’re following the bible (perhps you’re thinking of the verse where Jesus says “You don’t need to pay attention to anything I say uless someone writes it down”*, or

b) you’re following an extra-biblical, man-made tradition (the kind that you explicitly reject)

Regards Doc

*Gospel according to whatever Doc needed to make up at the time to prove his point 14:11

 

[jericho777]

So the question becomes WHY would you contend this?
a) because you’re following the bible (perhps you’re thinking of the verse where Jesus says “You don’t need to pay attention to anything I say uless someone writes it down”*, or

b) you’re following an extra-biblical, man-made tradition (the kind that you explicitly reject)

Regards Doc

*Gospel according to whatever Doc needed to make up at the time to prove his point 14:11

Just as Paul referred to the scripture not tradition in 2Tim 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So do I think it is therefore suffecient. Besides if it is written down then someone cannot discovey new things that one must believe.

 

[estesbob]

Just as Paul referred to the scripture not tradition in 2Tim 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So do I think it is therefore suffecient. Besides if it is written down then someone cannot discovey new things that one must believe.

So your theology is based on your personal interpretation of three verses of Scripture? Why would God reveal this in three disjointed verses? Why not just say "Scipture is the only source of the Truth:? You are embracing gnositicism and dont even realize it.

 

[guanophore]

Just as Paul referred to the scripture not tradition in 2Tim 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It appears that you are pulling out a couple verses, and building a doctrine upon them while excluding other relevant verses. This is one of the problems that occurs when someone tries to extrapolate the faith from the book 2000 years after the fact, instead of receiving the faith from those to whom it was committed.

Not only that, when Paul wrote this, he was referring to the OT, which was preserved itself by Sacred Tradition. How do you thihk the bulk of Genesis got to Moses so he could write it down? God prepared a people who knew how to keep His revelation among themselves, so that when the Son arrived they had the skills they needed to preserve His Word in the Church. Think of how many years in infallible preservation there was of the Word between Adam and Moses!

So do I think it is therefore suffecient. Besides if it is written down then someone cannot discovey new things that one must believe.

You have not answered my question. How many other unnecessary and useless things do you think Jesus did, besides founding a Church?

It is clear that you consider Catholic Dogma’s “new discovery”, but this is not the case.

 

[jericho777]

It appears that you are pulling out a couple verses, and building a doctrine upon them while excluding other relevant verses. This is one of the problems that occurs when someone tries to extrapolate the faith from the book 2000 years after the fact, instead of receiving the faith from those to whom it was committed.

Not only that, when Paul wrote this, he was referring to the OT, which was preserved itself by Sacred Tradition. How do you thihk the bulk of Genesis got to Moses so he could write it down? God prepared a people who knew how to keep His revelation among themselves, so that when the Son arrived they had the skills they needed to preserve His Word in the Church. Think of how many years in infallible preservation there was of the Word between Adam and Moses!

You have not answered my question. How many other unnecessary and useless things do you think Jesus did, besides founding a Church?

It is clear that you consider Catholic Dogma’s “new discovery”, but this is not the case.

Just as the overwhelming weight of scripture teaches election and predestination so it also uses scripture to codify its own positions. Scripture is used in the OT and NT to justify or used as a final arbiter to resolve an issue.

You are attempting to twist and put false words in my mouth. It is the Holy Spirit who decided what would be in the Holy writ. There is little biblical record of Jesus’ youth also but obviously the Holy Spirit limited our knowledge of that too. It doesn’t mean it’s unimportant just not necessary for the accomplishment of His will. You would have to ask Him why He chose not to include them in the bible.

 

[DrDave]

Just as Paul referred to the scripture not tradition in 2Tim 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So do I think it is therefore suffecient. Besides if it is written down then someone cannot discovey new things that one must believe.

Hmmm… I see the words ‘All Scripture’ but not the words ‘Only Scripture’ I could make the statement that all blue cars are cars, and that would be 100% true, but that doesn’t imply for a second that all cars are blue cars. Likewise this passage saying that ‘All Scripture’ is inspired doesn’t suggest to any of us that are capable of thinking that ‘Only Scripture’ is (name removed by moderator)ired as you seem to want it to.

I also see how if we want to take this passage at face value the scriptures Paul is clearly talking about are only what we would call the Old Testament (since I doubt Timothy knew 2Tim or any of the other epistles or gospels since infancy) So if you’re basing your theology on this verse, you might want to rip the new testament right out of any bible you have lying around. If you’re convinced however, that ‘All Scripture’ is inspired then you are, by that fact affirming the passages that exhort you to hold fast to the Teachings of Jesus Christ that have been continually passed on by the Church via Oral Tradition

Again unless you can point to a passage that contradicts what you cited from John a few posts ago

As for ‘discovering new things to believe’ you seem to place us in the same category as the muslims and the mormons asserting a ‘new’ revelation from God,after the end of the apostolic age. Nothing could be further from the truth. If a teaching cannot be traced back to the apostolic age, and cannot be harmonised with the entirety of scripture, then we want no part of it (things like Sola Scripture, Sola Fide, OSAS, The Rapture etc)

Just a little food for thought here’s something I posted on another forum years ago that outlines my thinking on this subject

Ignatius of Antioch - “Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains *. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

If I remember correctly Ignatius learnt his faith at the feet of St. John (The Evangelist and Apostle), and it seems to me that when people say that the Catholic church ‘broke away’ from early christianity (or some other version of the ‘Great Apostacy’ theory) they are actually saying that my Lord Jesus Christ deliberatly chose 12 men who were such incompetents that the truth of the faith didn’t even survive one generation. What a Guy!!??!!:?
*
Regards Doc

 

[estesbob]

Just as the overwhelming weight of scripture teaches election and predestination so it also uses scripture to codify its own positions. Scripture is used in the OT and NT to justify or used as a final arbiter to resolve an issue.

.

If this is true you should be able to provide more evidence than a few random verses pulled willy nilly out of various parts of the Bible.

 

[jericho777]

If this is true you should be able to provide more evidence than a few random verses pulled willy nilly out of various parts of the Bible.

As long as you can match me verse for verse if you can.

The overwhelming weight of scripture shows that God chooses us and gives the elect the ability to be saved. Not everyone will even hear there is a God. Remember He first loved us. Here are some more verses. This is by no means an exhaustive list just few.

Election
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake.

1 Thes 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Titus1:1-3 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Predestination
Lk 22:22 For indeed the Son of Man goes on His way–His pre-destined way; yet alas for that man who is betraying Him!"

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 17:31 seeing that He has appointed a day on which, before long, He will judge the world in righteousness, through the instrumentality of a man whom He has pre-destined to this work, and has made the fact certain to every one by raising Him from the dead.

Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers; and those whom He has pre-destined He also has called; and those whom He has called He has also declared free from guilt; and those whom He has declared free from guilt He has also crowned with glory.

1 Chor 2:7 But in dealing with truths hitherto kept secret we speak of God’s wisdom–that hidden wisdom which, before the world began, God pre-destined, so that it should result in glory to us;

Eph 1:5 For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ–such being His gracious will and pleasure

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Eph 2:10For we are God’s own handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works which He has pre-destined us to practise.

 

[jericho777]

1 Thes 2:9 For God has not pre-destined us to meet His anger, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thes 2:13-14 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose youb to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:2 has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages

1 Peter 1:20 He was pre-destined indeed to this work, even before the creation of the world, but has been plainly manifested in these last days for the sake of you who, through Him,

2 Peter 3:11 Since all these things are thus pre-destined to dissolution, what sort of men ought you to be found to be in all holy living and godly conduct,

Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed–men spoken of in ancient writings as pre-destined to this condemnation–ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into an excuse for immorality, and disown Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and Lord.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

2 Tim. 1:9-10 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Rom 8:28-33 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,j whok have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Col 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

John 17:24; Eph. 1:3-14; ; 2 Tim. 1:9-10). Divine election is a continuous theme in Paul’s Epistles (Rom. 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; 16:13; Col. 3:12; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 ).

 

[cheese_sdc]

From “The Song of the Bird”:

The Master imprints his wisdom in the heart oi his disciple, not the pages of a book. The disciple might carry this wisdom in his heart for thirty or forty years, until he meets someone ready to receive it. Such was the tradition of Zen.

The Zen Master Munan sent for his disciple Shoju one day and said, “/ am an old man now, Shoju, and it is you who will carry on this teaching. Here is a book that has been handed down from Master to Master for seven generations. I have myself added some notes to it that you will find valuable. Here, keep it with you as a sign that I have made you my successor.”

“You had better keep the book yourself,” said Shoju. “/ received your Zen without the help of written words, and I am quite content to let it be that way.” “I know, I know,” said Munan patiently. “Even so, the book has served seven generations and may be helpful to you too. Here, keep it with you.”

The two happened to be talking near the fire-place. The instant the book touched Shoju’s hand he flung it into the fire. He had no lust for written words.

Munan, who was never known to be angry before shouted, “You must be crazy! What are you doing?” Shoju shouted back, “You are crazy yourself! What are you saying?”

 

[guanophore]

Just as the overwhelming weight of scripture teaches election and predestination so it also uses scripture to codify its own positions.

Doctrine is not established by some sort of "majority rule, Jer. just because something is only mentioned once in scripture does not overrule it’s value.

Scripture does not “use” scripture, and scripture does not have a “position”. These are examples of anthropomorphizing the text. It is evidence that the reader has interpolated his own thinking process into his reading, and believes the “position” he has adopted has somehow come from Scripture, rather than his own mind.

Scripture is used in the OT and NT to justify or used as a final arbiter to resolve an issue.

Yes, of course! Scripture is profitable in these issues. But the duty of arbitration is given to _______?

Do you remember where Jesus said to take issues that were not resolved among believers?

Hint: Arbitration requires the abiliity to choose/decide, discern, and take responsibility for the decision.

Double Hint: Scripture does not have these qualities.