How many pages from the Bible do you use or need to use to support your beliefs?

[jericho777]

Hmmm… I see the words ‘All Scripture’ but not the words ‘Only Scripture’ I could make the statement that all blue cars are cars, and that would be 100% true, but that doesn’t imply for a second that all cars are blue cars. Likewise this passage saying that ‘All Scripture’ is inspired doesn’t suggest to any of us that are capable of thinking that ‘Only Scripture’ is (name removed by moderator)ired as you seem to want it to.

I also see how if we want to take this passage at face value the scriptures Paul is clearly talking about are only what we would call the Old Testament (since I doubt Timothy knew 2Tim or any of the other epistles or gospels since infancy) So if you’re basing your theology on this verse, you might want to rip the new testament right out of any bible you have lying around. If you’re convinced however, that ‘All Scripture’ is inspired then you are, by that fact affirming the passages that exhort you to hold fast to the Teachings of Jesus Christ that have been continually passed on by the Church via Oral Tradition

Again unless you can point to a passage that contradicts what you cited from John a few posts ago

As for ‘discovering new things to believe’ you seem to place us in the same category as the muslims and the mormons asserting a ‘new’ revelation from God,after the end of the apostolic age. Nothing could be further from the truth. If a teaching cannot be traced back to the apostolic age, and cannot be harmonised with the entirety of scripture, then we want no part of it (things like Sola Scripture, Sola Fide, OSAS, The Rapture etc)

Just a little food for thought here’s something I posted on another forum years ago that outlines my thinking on this subject

Regards Doc

I trust scripture to be totally accurate without error and God breathed. If you want to trust men please be my guest. Paul’s initial statement would be enough to cover any future NT scripture. If you notice the verse doesn’t say that tradition is breathed of God does it. The NT authors over 100 times refer to scripture when wanting to make a point. I found only two that spoke to tradition.

2 Thes 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching (tradition) you received from us.

1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down (tradition) to you from your forefathers,

However when you talk about tradition you assume they are not already identified in scripture. Leading to the misconception that you have some new revelation that is not written in scripture. But these two posts explain what they are referring to.

Your use of Sacred Tradition as the lens of scriptural interpretation leads people to question the validity of your cause in light of the fidelity to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[guanophore]

I trust scripture to be totally accurate without error and God breathed. If you want to trust men please be my guest. Paul’s initial statement would be enough to cover any future NT scripture. If you notice the verse doesn’t say that tradition is breathed of God does it.

This is another example of trying to exclude an apostolic teaching because it does not appear in the verse you are quoting from.

Have you considered this method you are using? do you really exclude certain doctrine because it is not mentioned within the verse you are currently quoting? What kind of exegesis is that?

The reason Catholics esteem the Word of God that was committed by mouth (in person) on an equal level with the scripture is that this is how it was taught to the Church. In their zeal to “purify” the faith, the Reformers separated themselves from this Sacred Tradition, and some of it was lost. More of it gets lost in each successive generation. Now, we have people calling themselves “christian” who don’t believe Jesus is God!

God breathed upon the infant Church, when He told them “receive the HS”. There is only one other time in the Scriptures when God breathed into man the breath of life. So, you see, the Church is also God breathed.

The Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth. The Sacred scriptures, produced by her, cannot be separated from the faith from which they sprang. When they are separated, all kinds of heresies result.

The NT authors over 100 times refer to scripture when wanting to make a point.  I found only two that spoke to tradition.

You missed some references to Sacred Tradition (the Word of God that was deposited with the Church)

2Thes.2
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

1Thes.2
[13] And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

The Word of God did not “disappear” from the Church when some of it was committed to writing. Do you really not believe Jesus is able to preserve His word, whereever he puts it? Why would He let what He gave to the church melt away?
jericho777;6812269:

However when you talk about tradition you assume they are not already identified in scripture. Leading to the misconception that you have some new revelation that is not written in scripture.

No, Jer. we don’t assume anything of the kind. But there is not effort to have a 100% overlap between the two. They are intended to compliment one another.

I am glad you realize the accusation of “new revelation” is a misconception. It is a very common one among our separated brethren. They have been separated from the Sacred Tradition for so long they think Catholics “added” to the deposit of faith, rather than the Reformers subtracting!

Your use of Sacred Tradition as the lens of scriptural interpretation leads people to question the validity of your cause in light of the fidelity to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Actually, I think people question the validity of our “cause” confused long before they find out how we think about Sacred Tradition. Most people, like yourself, approach this subject assuming the Catholic position is the wrong one.

 

[jericho777]

Doctrine is not established by some sort of "majority rule, Jer. just because something is only mentioned once in scripture does not overrule it’s value.

Scripture does not “use” scripture, and scripture does not have a “position”. These are examples of anthropomorphizing the text. It is evidence that the reader has interpolated his own thinking process into his reading, and believes the “position” he has adopted has somehow come from Scripture, rather than his own mind.

Yes, of course! Scripture is profitable in these issues. But the duty of arbitration is given to _______?

Do you remember where Jesus said to take issues that were not resolved among believers?

Hint: Arbitration requires the abiliity to choose/decide, discern, and take responsibility for the decision.

Double Hint: Scripture does not have these qualities.

Then why are you all saying that you need more scriptural evidence on a position as estesbob has done? This is not the first time either. You roll on the floor laughing thinking they don’t exist. This ploy is used to cover your lack of biblical evidence for your position. Then when I deliver you say just because there a lot of verses backing your claim doesn’t mean the one verse you have has less weight to it. That’s pure BS and you know it.

It is apparent as to your lack of intellectual honesty with scriptural evidences. Believe me you are free to believe what ever you like. As for me the Word of God is sufficient for all matters or faith and morals.

 

[guanophore]

Then why are you all saying that you need more scriptural evidence on a position as estesbob has done? This is not the first time either. You roll on the floor laughing thinking they don’t exist. This ploy is used to cover your lack of biblical evidence for your position. Then when I deliver you say just because there a lot of verses backing your claim doesn’t mean the one verse you have has less weight to it. That’s pure BS and you know it.

Calm down, Jer, take a breath, and say a prayer!

I have spent years studying the OSAS doctrines, and the TULIP. I understand how it is extracted from scripture. I am perfectly willing to concede that this doctrine can be defended with scripture. There sure is a lot more evidence for it that there is the perpetual virginity of the Mother of Jesus!

The verses you have offered to support your view are written by Catholics, for Catholics. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic. There is no no contradiction between the Scritpures, and the Catholic faith. These are some of the premises with which we approach the Scripture. Obviously, you and other Calvanists approach it differently.

It is not “pure BS” to say that something mentioned in Scripture only once can have as much weight as if it were mentioned 100 times. None of Catholic doctrine is extracted from the Scriptures. Our doctrine comes from Christ, through the Apostles. It was whole and entire before any word of the NT was ever written. We see our faith reflected in the Scripture, but Scritpure is not the Source of it. Jesus is the Source.

It is apparent as to your lack of intellectual honesty with scriptural evidences. Believe me you are free to believe what ever you like. As for me the Word of God is sufficient for all matters or faith and morals.

You are free to stand in the tradition of those who have departed from the Apostolic faith on this matter.

One has to wonder, since you seem to have your mind so made up about rejecting what Catholics believe, why are you here?

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted
Jericho: 1 Do you think the apostles taught anything that cannot be verified by scripture?

JL: Well one big TRADITION, for sure, the canon of the bible is NO where found or verified by scripture. The canon was infallibly discerned by the Church thru Tradition, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

As far as all being verified by scripture, I would not use that word. the Church does not teach one way or the other, so my personal opinion and experience would be, with possible exceptions, the apostles teachings will be a lest implied. No matter how faint the implication. Examples, the Trinity is NOT explicit, but is strongly implied. Infant baptism is not explicit, yet implied somewhat less stronger than the Trinity. It is thru Tradition BOTH word and epistle that the Trinity was defined infallible by Ecumenical Councils. I can tell you Tradition can NEVER contradict scripture, they MUST agree. Actually the only way ANYONE knows the bible is the word of God, is by TRADITION.

Could you verify for me where scripture claims sola scriptura, or baptism a symbol, rapture, OSAS, or invisible church? None of which are found in scripture, but acutally contradict scripture. These are all traditions of men made doctrines of God. All faith groups have traditions handed down, by which they see and interpret scripture. That’s why a Baptist interpretes scripture differently than a Presbyterian or a Presbyterian differently than a Methodist a Methodist differently than your faith group. Yet they will ALL deny they hold traditions.

I notice you did not give me a scripture, that verifies, ALL TRADITION is now in the written Tradition of scripture, you can’t. Scripture EXPLICITLY verifies we are to HOLD TRADITIONS. Yet your tradition of men is to deny the scriptures clear verification of Tradition whether by WORD or EPISTLE.

2 THES 2:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been TAUGHT, whether BY word, OR our epistle.

I can literally verify SCRIPTURE teaching to HOLD TRADITION, whether by WORD or EPISTLE. Can you verify scripture, tellIing us, NOT to hold Tradition by WORD or EPISTLE? If not then you are following a tradition of men made a doctrine of God.

Jericho: 1 The apostles only taught what can be verified by the word of God.

JL: Yes WORD OF GOD, whether by WORD or EPISTLE. That’s VERIFIED in 2Thes2:14-15. Can you VERIFY scripture only? I would like to see that, tradition of men, bible verse.

Jericho: There is more than enough scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. You like other religions try to fudge your way to increasing doctrine and dogma beyond the breath of scripture.

JL: Really, then why do several faith groups even today, who claim the bible as their authority, not believe in the Trinity and deceive many? Why did it take so many heresies and Church Councils to clarify and finally define the Trinity, after many years of controversy? Hind sight IS truly 20/20, so much controversy could have been avoided, if only they had had you there. Your religion is the one who fudges, who make traditions of men, to nullify the Word of God, 2Thes is an excellent example of that fudging. Can you VERIFY scripture only? No, scripture only, blatantly contradicts scripture, yet you hold fast to that tradition of men, despite what scripture tells you.

Jericho: There can be differences of opinion on everything the bible says.

JL: Yes, you are PRECISELY CORRECT, we see that plainly, with the thousands of faith groups sola scriptura, that Tower of Babel, has created and still scattering. That’s why Our Lord gave us THE CHURCH as a pillar and ground of TRUTH, which the gates of hell shall not prevail againt. That’s why Christ commissioned and SENT that ONE TEACHING AUTHORITY, to teach the WHOLE WORLD till the END, SENDING the Holy Spirit to LEAD THEM into ALL TRUTH, not hit and miss truth.

 

[jlhargus]

Jericho: Paul tells Timothy in 2 Tim 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Therefore all scripture is sufficient for the life of the believer it does not say traditions.

JL: It does in fact say Tradition, you need to back up just ONE verse, [2Tm3:14 But **CONTINUE THOU IN THE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST LEARNED AND hast BEEN ASSURED OF, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;]

Now pick up VERSE 15-17 and continue into chapter 4, where we see Timothy an overseer (bishop) IS the AUTHORITY who will, PREACH THE WORD, REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH DOCTRINE. Making full use of his MINISTRY.

[Verse:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH all long suffering and DOCTRINE. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, MAKE FULL PROOF OF THY MINISTRY. ]

[2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And **the THINGS that thou hast HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.]

[2 TIM 1:13 **HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.]

jericho: 2 You all hold that tradition is equal to scripture. But in practice tradition drives your interpretation of scripture. Leading to all the dogmas and doctrines that cannot be attributed to scripture

JL: Yes we hold Tradition as 2Thes14-15 EXPLICITLY tell us. You CLAIM to trust scripture to be totally accurate without error and God breathed. Yet you tare out and ignor those scripture that literally, unambiguously and EXPLICITY VERIFIES, what Paul calls OUR GOSPEL, TAUGHT, whether by WORD or Epistles. To hold fast a tradition of men, made a doctrine of God, to nulify the Word of God.

Could you verify for me where scripture claims sola scriptura, or baptism a symbol, rapture, OSAS, or invisible church? None of which are found in scripture, but acutally contradict scripture. These are all traditions of men made doctrines of God. All faith groups have traditions handed down, by which they see and interpret scripture. That’s why a Baptist interpretes scripture differently than a Presbyterian or a Presbyterian differently than a Methodist a Methodist differently than your faith group. Yet they will ALL deny they hold traditions.

I notice you did not give me a scripture, that verifies, ALL TRADITION is now in the written Tradition of scripture, you can’t.

 

[jlhargus]

As long as you can match me verse for verse if you can.

The overwhelming weight of scripture shows that God chooses us and gives the elect the ability to be saved. Not everyone will even hear there is a God. Remember He first loved us. Here are some more verses. This is by no means an exhaustive list just few.

Election
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake.

1 Thes 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Titus1:1-3 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Predestination
Lk 22:22 For indeed the Son of Man goes on His way–His pre-destined way; yet alas for that man who is betraying Him!"

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 17:31 seeing that He has appointed a day on which, before long, He will judge the world in righteousness, through the instrumentality of a man whom He has pre-destined to this work, and has made the fact certain to every one by raising Him from the dead.

Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers; and those whom He has pre-destined He also has called; and those whom He has called He has also declared free from guilt; and those whom He has declared free from guilt He has also crowned with glory.

1 Chor 2:7 But in dealing with truths hitherto kept secret we speak of God’s wisdom–that hidden wisdom which, before the world began, God pre-destined, so that it should result in glory to us;

Eph 1:5 For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ–such being His gracious will and pleasure

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Eph 2:10For we are God’s own handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works which He has pre-destined us to practise.

JL: In other words God has created billions upon billions of souls, knowing HE would not give then even a slite chance to be saved. Those who have lived in proverty and oppression all thier earthly life. Only to be thrown into hell at death, that they may continue to be tormented for all eternity. I thought God loved his creation, I didn’t know he hated it. By the way are you Calvary Chapel or Vinyard Outreach?

 

[Dokimas]

As long as you can match me verse for verse if you can.

The overwhelming weight of scripture shows that God chooses us and gives the elect the ability to be saved. Not everyone will even hear there is a God. Remember He first loved us. Here are some more verses. This is by no means an exhaustive list just few.

Election
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake.

1 Thes 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Titus1:1-3 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Predestination
Lk 22:22 For indeed the Son of Man goes on His way–His pre-destined way; yet alas for that man who is betraying Him!"

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 17:31 seeing that He has appointed a day on which, before long, He will judge the world in righteousness, through the instrumentality of a man whom He has pre-destined to this work, and has made the fact certain to every one by raising Him from the dead.

Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers; and those whom He has pre-destined He also has called; and those whom He has called He has also declared free from guilt; and those whom He has declared free from guilt He has also crowned with glory.

1 Chor 2:7 But in dealing with truths hitherto kept secret we speak of God’s wisdom–that hidden wisdom which, before the world began, God pre-destined, so that it should result in glory to us;

Eph 1:5 For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ–such being His gracious will and pleasure

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Eph 2:10For we are God’s own handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works which He has pre-destined us to practise.

These verses may be willy-nilly but there is NOT a few.

 

[estesbob]

I trust scripture to be totally accurate without error and God breathed. If you want to trust men please be my guest. Paul’s initial statement would be enough to cover any future NT scripture. If you notice the verse doesn’t say that tradition is breathed of God does it. The NT authors over 100 times refer to scripture when wanting to make a point. I found only two that spoke to tradition.

2 Thes 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching (tradition) you received from us.

1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down (tradition) to you from your forefathers,

However when you talk about tradition you assume they are not already identified in scripture. Leading to the misconception that you have some new revelation that is not written in scripture. But these two posts explain what they are referring to.

Your use of Sacred Tradition as the lens of scriptural interpretation leads people to question the validity of your cause in light of the fidelity to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Nice cut n paste but you have done the same thing you aways do-grabbed some random verses from scripture, pasted them in a reply and said AHAH! this proves my point. Of course that requires that we accept your personal interpreation of Scripture and that we ignore the rest of scripture and the teachings of the early Church and the coinsistent tecachings of the catholic hurch for the last 2,000 years.

There is an old programmer saying-“garbage in garbage out”. GOGO for short. And that is what you are engaged in. Your whole theology is based on a false premise-that Scripture is some kind of puzzle book that each individual must read to decipher the meanings of individual verses. Nothing more than jazzed up Gnostocism.

 

[Dokimas]

1 Thes 2:9 For God has not pre-destined us to meet His anger, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thes 2:13-14 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose youb to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:2 has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages

1 Peter 1:20 He was pre-destined indeed to this work, even before the creation of the world, but has been plainly manifested in these last days for the sake of you who, through Him,

2 Peter 3:11 Since all these things are thus pre-destined to dissolution, what sort of men ought you to be found to be in all holy living and godly conduct,

Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed–men spoken of in ancient writings as pre-destined to this condemnation–ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into an excuse for immorality, and disown Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and Lord.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

2 Tim. 1:9-10 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Rom 8:28-33 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,j whok have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Col 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

John 17:24; Eph. 1:3-14; ; 2 Tim. 1:9-10). Divine election is a continuous theme in Paul’s Epistles (Rom. 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; 16:13; Col. 3:12; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 ).

Nor are these a few more!!

BTW, what does willy-nilly mean?

 

[Dokimas]

Hint: Arbitration requires the abiliity to choose/decide, discern, and take responsibility for the decision.

Double Hint: Scripture does not have these qualities.

Oh no???

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two–edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1Th 2:13 ¶ For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also **effectively works ****in you **who believe.

1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which **lives and abides **forever,

2Ti 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise **for salvation **through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[jericho777]

Nice cut n paste but you have done the same thing you aways do-grabbed some random verses from scripture, pasted them in a reply and said AHAH! this proves my point. Of course that requires that we accept your personal interpreation of Scripture and that we ignore the rest of scripture and the teachings of the early Church and the coinsistent tecachings of the catholic hurch for the last 2,000 years.

There is an old programmer saying-“garbage in garbage out”. GOGO for short. And that is what you are engaged in. Your whole theology is based on a false premise-that Scripture is some kind of puzzle book that each individual must read to decipher the meanings of individual verses. Nothing more than jazzed up Gnostocism.

You wanted me to post more biblical proofs so I did as you asked. Now all you can do is talk trash and run your mouth and make accusations. I’m waiting to see all your scriptural evidences that defend your position.

By the way it’s GIGO not GOGO.

 

[Dokimas]

Nice cut n paste but you have done the same thing you aways do-grabbed some random verses from scripture, pasted them in a reply and said AHAH! this proves my point. Of course that requires that we accept your personal interpreation of Scripture and that we ignore the rest of scripture and the teachings of the early Church and the coinsistent tecachings of the catholic hurch for the last 2,000 years.

There is an old programmer saying-“garbage in garbage out”. GOGO for short. And that is what you are engaged in. Your whole theology is based on a false premise-that Scripture is some kind of puzzle book that each individual must read to decipher the meanings of individual verses. Nothing more than jazzed up Gnostocism.

Attacking the person is not the best way to show you are correct. It’a actually very weak.

 

[estesbob]

You wanted me to post more biblical proofs so I did as you asked. Now all you can do is talk trash and run your mouth and make accusations. I’m waiting to see all your scriptural evidences that defend your position.

By the way it’s GIGO not GOGO.

But you didn’t give proof you cut n pasted another disjointed list of verses and told us it was proof. Of course it is proof only if we accept your personal interpreation of scripture and only if we accept the doctrine of Sola Scritura Since your premise is fatally flawed you can offer proof only to those who accept yor premise-which excludes pretty much all Christians for the first 1500 years after Christ founded the 9atholic 9hurch

 

[jericho777]

But you didn’t give proof you cut n pasted another disjointed list of verses and told us it was proof. Of course it is proof only if we accept your personal interpreation of scripture and only if we accept the doctrine of Sola Scritura Since your premise is fatally flawed you can offer proof only to those who accept yor premise-which excludes pretty much all Christians for the first 1500 years after Christ founded the 9atholic 9hurch

This is a list that I compiled to dialog with JW’s on the subject. And you are still talking trash. I have not seen any versus from you defending your position that we are not elected, predestined or chosen by God. I do realize that you can’t anyway so our conversation is now over.

 

[MaryTeresa2]

Can I just put in a word here for the power of the Holy Spirit??? Who breathed on the Apostles… and also Jesus… who gave Peter and them the power to bind and loose on Earth…as He would in Heaven… Tradition is not just some old Catholic guys stretching scripture or their personal views to fit and make up what they want to believe. If you are comfy with scripture alone, OK, interpret it how you wish as all the thousands of branches of off-shoot churches have for the past several hundred years…and all the people who read scripture alone, each making up their own interpretations… go to any of them any Sunday and they will all have their own say…but we Catholics believe as scripture teaches us that what was preached and written down and has been the same for 2000+ years in the Catholic Church is given by the Holy Spirit to men who preached and wrote it and continue to do so today… the same in all of our parishes, each and every week anywhere you go in the world… you can trust it to be the Truth. That power was granted by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. By baptism we all have been given power by the Holy Spirit, we can recognize God’s Truth when we hear it and see it… you are perfectly correct to recognize it in scripture… but there is much more than that, much more was revealed and preached and became Tradition, dogma if you will. It still has the stamp of approval of the Holy Spirit. It’s still the same as it was then, it never changes. Why not welcome the rest of the riches that are given? It’s your soul, have it how you wish… for me, I’m not taking chances, I’ll stick with the one true apolostic, catholic, universal, original, brand name church and all it teaches, preaches and passes down to me because I’ve not got 2000 years to go back and study all that by myself!

 

[guanophore]

 Oh no????

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two–edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
[4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
[5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The Word of God is most certainly a Person, not a writing, however Holy. His living and powerful presence works through the Scriptures to those who are open to receive Him.
Plenty of people read the scriptures and are not pierced, nor are any of their thoughts laid bare, because they are not open to Him.

 1Th 2:13 ¶  For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also **effectively works ****in you ****who believe**.

This is a reference to the Sacred Tradtiion, Doki. It is the living presence of Christ in the Church. This is the Word of God that has been preserved infallibly by the HS. It is the preached Word (kerygma). This is not a reference to the text either.

 1Pe 1:23  having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which **lives and abides **forever,

Again a reference to the living presence of Christ, not words on papyrus. The Word of God transcends the pages of Scripture. It is the HS, working through the Scripture that accomplishes these things. The HS is the Person, not the text.

  2Ti 3:15  and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, **which are able to make you wise** **for salvation **through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Indeed reading the Scriptures makes us wise.

Yet, salvation comes through the Person of Christ, not the pages of the book.

 

[guanophore]

You wanted me to post more biblical proofs so I did as you asked. Now all you can do is talk trash and run your mouth and make accusations. I’m waiting to see all your scriptural evidences that defend your position.

Jer, you seem to be very hostile. If you wish to remain on CAF and dialogue with us, then you will have to do so in a charitable manner. You don’t have to agree with us, but it is required that you respect our faith. This might be a good time to reflect on what your goals are in coming here.

 

[estesbob]

This is a list that I compiled to dialog with JW’s on the subject. And you are still talking trash. I have not seen any versus from you defending your position that we are not elected, predestined or chosen by God. I do realize that you can’t anyway so our conversation is now over.

But you have made it impossible to deabte. you have declared that we must accpet the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura and that we must accept your personal interpretation of scripture. You are incapble of answering any of the myriad of questions asked you other than to cut n paste still more scripture verses.

 

[Dokimas]

But you have made it impossible to deabte. you have declared that we must accpet the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura and that we must accept your personal interpretation of scripture. You are incapble of answering any of the myriad of questions asked you other than to cut n paste still more scripture verses.

Do we have to accept ST? If so, and we don’t agree that ST is equal to the Bible, how can we debate? See the fix we all are in?