How many people are going to bail out of the Anglican Communion?

[jay29]

** Church Votes For Women Bishops **

                   	   	   	   	     			  				   			 	   	      			          	 	   	                                                                	                 	  	 	 	 	  The Church of England's ruling body has voted to go ahead with the ordination of women bishops.
				  					    
	http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2008/Jul/Week1/15026479.jpg 	Some clergy have threatened to leave if women are 'put in charge'

But the Church was facing a damaging split after members of its General Synod threw out compromise proposals on females in senior ranks.
All safeguards demanded by traditionalists were rejected.
Sky News correspondent Mike McCarthy said: "It’s a historic and very significant moment for the Church of England.
“The real test now is how many people will leave (the Church). There are certainly going to be many wrestling with their consciences.”

	 		 		 			 				[In the end, the traditionalists achieved very little by way of compromise – just a Code of Practice.](http://blogs.news.sky.com/stateandfaith)
		 			 				 					Alastair Bruce 				 				 		 			 			 			  		

	 	    The Synod members voted to approve work on a national statutory code to accommodate those within the Church who object to women bishops.

But the Synod rejected compromise plans for new “super bishops” to cater for objectors - and also their preferred option of creating new dioceses.
The decision to go ahead with work on the code came after more than six hours of debate by the General Synod, which saw extraordinary scenes, with one bishop in tears as he spoke of being “ashamed” of the Church of England.
The Rt Rev Stephen Venner, Bishop of Dover, who is in favour of women bishops said: "I have to say, Synod, for the first time in my life, I feel ashamed.
"We have talked for hours about wanting to give an honourable place to those who disagree.
"We have been given opportunities for both views to flourish. We have turned down every, almost realistic opportunity for those who are opposed to flourish.

news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Church-of-England-General-Synod-Backs-Female-Ordination/Article/200807115026204?lpos=UK+News_1&lid=ARTICLE_15026204_Church+of+England+General+Synod+Backs+Female+Ordination

 

[mark_a]

** Church Votes For Women Bishops **

                                                                                                                               The Church of England's ruling body has voted to go ahead with the ordination of women bishops.

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2008/Jul/Week1/15026479.jpg     Some clergy have threatened to leave if women are 'put in charge'

But the Church was facing a damaging split after members of its General Synod threw out compromise proposals on females in senior ranks.
All safeguards demanded by traditionalists were rejected.
Sky News correspondent Mike McCarthy said: "It’s a historic and very significant moment for the Church of England.
“The real test now is how many people will leave (the Church). There are certainly going to be many wrestling with their consciences.”

                                                   [In the end, the traditionalists achieved very little by way of compromise – just a Code of Practice.](http://blogs.news.sky.com/stateandfaith)

                                              Alastair Bruce                                                                                           

          The Synod members voted to approve work on a national statutory code to accommodate those within the Church who object to women bishops.

But the Synod rejected compromise plans for new “super bishops” to cater for objectors - and also their preferred option of creating new dioceses.
The decision to go ahead with work on the code came after more than six hours of debate by the General Synod, which saw extraordinary scenes, with one bishop in tears as he spoke of being “ashamed” of the Church of England.
The Rt Rev Stephen Venner, Bishop of Dover, who is in favour of women bishops said: "I have to say, Synod, for the first time in my life, I feel ashamed.
"We have talked for hours about wanting to give an honourable place to those who disagree.
"We have been given opportunities for both views to flourish. We have turned down every, almost realistic opportunity for those who are opposed to flourish.

news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Church-of-England-General-Synod-Backs-Female-Ordination/Article/200807115026204?lpos=UK+News_1&lid=ARTICLE_15026204_Church+of+England+General+Synod+Backs+Female+Ordination

If according to the Church of England women may become priests, isn’t it just common sense that they may be chosen to become bishops?

 

[jesusluv]

No, not really. One of the things that, at least fundamentalist protestantism stresses is women can’t be “the leader”. Allowing female priests could still loosely fit that mold because they were still under a male bishop, so ultimately, the leadership was male. Now that they lift that “ban” on females being bishops, then they can’t claim that anymore.

It wasn’t a foregone conclusion, at least on paper, that women would be ordained bishop in the AC, but now I guess it is.

 

[Hesychios]

The Church of England does not control the rest of the communion.

The provinces of Canada, TEC and the British provinces are most liberal, and should see some damage down the line. They are also among the smallest parts of the communion.

The African church is strong and growing. They continue to call themselves Anglican and do not see themselves as diverging.

It makes me think that Canterbury may lose it’s place as titular head of the Anglican Communion because it has usually been accommodating to the changes in North America (and now England). I think any portion of English clergy that ask to be accepted by Rome will not be able to bring their congregations or property with them. They will dribble out piecemeal, as will the laity. There may be some clergy who will go to other Protestant churches. Most will probably stay put.

Clergy need their pensions, that holds some of them down.

The buildings will remain C of E unless they go up for sale.

 

[abucs]

Only a guess but i think that those that think the Church doesn’t have the authority to ordain women as priests do not consider women priests as priests.

This can be contained as if you don’t think it is valid you do not attend such services.

If women become Bishops though, then they will be ordaining priests themselves and because those that hold to the earlier view think that is invalid - all such priests will be invalid also, and it will get to the stage where everyone in the communion is invalid by that criteria when those priests gradually become Bishops and ordain further priests etc etc…

Such a view that says the church cannot ordain women priests means the whole church will eventually become invalid in those eyes.

I think.

 

[chris_molter]

The African church is strong and growing. They continue to call themselves Anglican and do not see themselves as diverging.

Ahh, but most of them also ordain women at least to the diaconate. So the problem of WO remains. Having the ‘flagship’ church of the AC allowing women Bishops with very little protection for those who disagree is a huge step towards pushing the remaining Anglocatholics out.

the GAFCON communion is shaping up to be largely be evangelical protestant in flavor.

I think our respective communions (Rome and EO) are missing a huge opportunity to help these folks. In fact, it looks like we’re putting up roadblocks to them entering full communion (no solid Western Rite for those looking Orthodox and no solid Anglican Rite for those looking Romeward).

Let’s hope the hierarchies on both sides do what they can. Otherwise it’ll just be more fragmentation.

 

[Dempsey1919]

This is another bad decision that further destroys all hope of unity between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church. A few months ago Cardinal Kasper called for the Church of England to decide whether it was protestant or catholic. We now have the answer: the Church of England is moving in a firmly protestant direction.

In deciding to allow women to be consecrated as Bishops, the Church of England has basically rendered its Holy Orders null and invalid. All traces of Apostolic Succession within this organisation will evaporate within a generation as these women “Bishops” begin to ordain others.

I feel sorry for the conservative and anglo-catholics within the Church of England. However, they must now decide whether to remain and accept women as Bishops equal with men, or to leave and join the Catholic Church.

 

[Hesychios]

Ahh, but most of them also ordain women at least to the diaconate. So the problem of WO remains. Having the ‘flagship’ church of the AC allowing women Bishops with very little protection for those who disagree is a huge step towards pushing the remaining Anglocatholics out.

the GAFCON communion is shaping up to be largely be evangelical protestant in flavor.

I think our respective communions (Rome and EO) are missing a huge opportunity to help these folks. In fact, it looks like we’re putting up roadblocks to them entering full communion (no solid Western Rite for those looking Orthodox and no solid Anglican Rite for those looking Romeward).

Let’s hope the hierarchies on both sides do what they can. Otherwise it’ll just be more fragmentation.

For Romeward leaning Anglicans…there is almost nothing left! They got out in dribs and drabs over the last twenty years. If they had all stayed put their influence inside might have made a difference today.

Don’t lose any serious sleeping time over it.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

This is another bad decision that further destroys all hope of unity between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church. A few months ago Cardinal Kasper called for the Church of England to decide whether it was protestant or catholic. We now have the answer: the Church of England is moving in a firmly protestant direction.

In deciding to allow women to be consecrated as Bishops, the Church of England has basically rendered its Holy Orders null and invalid. All traces of Apostolic Succession within this organisation will evaporate within a generation as these women “Bishops” begin to ordain others.

I feel sorry for the conservative and anglo-catholics within the Church of England. However, they must now decide whether to remain and accept women as Bishops equal with men, or to leave and join the Catholic Church.

Their “Holy Orders” were already invalid so nothing has changed there. I have seen an entire parish coming back to Rome (I was living in Scranton where this was happening). This and individual conversion is where I see the main trend increasing.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Their “Holy Orders” were already invalid so nothing has changed there. I have seen an entire parish coming back to Rome (I was living in Scranton where this was happening). This and individual conversion is where I see the main trend increasing.

This is great news! As a mildly sectarian Catholic, I will admit that I found this decision somewhat pleasing because I know that this will cause many within the Anglican Communion to join the Catholic Church.

Truth be told, I would love to see the whole Anglican Communion disintegrate because we would see thousands unite under the leadership of the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome. Ultimately, that is what all Catholics hope for.

 

[ckempston]

Next thing you know they’ll be ordaining Imams as Bishops. Nothing would surprise me after these churches started ordaining gays and women. I’m almost convinced that Christians need an authoritative body to make these determinations…whoops, lost it again. Who needs an authoritative body when the Bible itself gives us the answers?

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

 

[mark_a]

NPR had a piece about the women bishops controversy, the upcoming Lambeth Council, and concerns that the Archbishop of Canterbury might have.

Does the Archbishop have any (for the lack of a better term) “papal” type powers or responsibilities?

 

[Claudius]

Well this is a big, huge “Told you so” from the Catholic Church to everyone else. Catholics have been saying for over a houndred years now that Anglican orders were invalid. We have been saying for years that they did not actually have a Eucharist, nor a priesthood, nor could their pretend priest hear confessions or grant absolution. We have been saying it and being accused of being Anglophobes, Anti-Engllish, or just blindly following the decision of a lond dead pope without the ability to judge for ourselves.

Well to all the Anglicans out there, I can certainly judge this for myself and I 100% agree with the pronouncement of the Vatican, Anglican Orders are 100% null and void, not matter the shared events with the “old Catholics”. Any reunion with them at this point is out of the question, but we do have some feminist that we would like the Anglicans to take off our hands for us. They keep asking to become priest and we keep telling them that Jesus says no but they won’t listen. Now they can just go and be Anglicans and all the people who really do want to do as Lord Jesus commands can come and be Catholic.

 

[Rolltide]

And so it begins…

Church of England Bishop will Lead Anglicans to Rome
wdtprs.com/blog/2008/07/church-of-england-bishop-will-lead-anglicans-to-rome/

Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 04:30 PM GMT

The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt Rev Andrew Burnham, is to lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Herald will reveal this week.

Bishop Burnham, one of two “flying bishops” in the province of Canterbury, has made a statement asking Pope Benedict XVI and the English Catholic bishops for “magnanimous gestures” that will allow traditionalists to become Catholics en masse.

He is confident that this will happen, following talks in Rome with Cardinal Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Cardinal Kasper, the Vatican’s head of ecumenism. He was accompanied on his visit by the Rt Rev Keith Newton, Bishop of Richborough, the other Canterbury “flying bishop”, who is expected to follow his example.

Bishop Burnham hopes that Rome will offer special arrangements whereby former Anglicans can stay worshipping in parishes under the guidance of a Catholic bishop. Most of these parishes already use the Roman liturgy, but there may be provision for Anglican prayers if churches request it.

Anglican priests who are already married will not be barred from ordination as priests, though Bishop Burnham would not be able to continue in episcopal orders, as he is married and there is an absolute bar on married bishops in the Roman and Orthodox Churches.

In his statement, Bishop Burnham explains why he is rejecting the code of practice offered to traditionalists by the General Synod last night. “How could we trust a code of practice to deliver a workable ecclesiology if every suggestion we have made for our inclusion has been turned down flat?” he asks.

"How could we trust a code of practice when those who are offering it include those who have done most to undermine and seek to revoke the code of practice in force for these last 14 years? …

“What we must humbly ask for now is for magnanimous gestures from our Catholic friends, especially from the Holy Father, who well understands our longing for unity, and from the hierarchy of England and Wales. Most of all we ask for ways that allow us to bring our folk with us.”

 

[SIA]

** Church Votes For Women Bishops **

                   	   	   	   	     			  				   		                 	  	 	 	 	  The Church of England's ruling body has voted to go ahead with the ordination of women bishops.
				  					    
	http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2008/Jul/Week1/15026479.jpg 	Some clergy have threatened to leave if women are 'put in charge'

But the Church was facing a damaging split after members of its General Synod threw out compromise proposals on females in senior ranks.
All safeguards demanded by traditionalists were rejected.
Sky News correspondent Mike McCarthy said: "It’s a historic and very significant moment for the Church of England.
“The real test now is how many people will leave (the Church). There are certainly going to be many wrestling with their consciences.”

	 		 		 			 				[In the end, the traditionalists achieved very little by way of compromise – just a Code of Practice.](http://blogs.news.sky.com/stateandfaith)
		 			 				 					Alastair Bruce 				 				 		 			 			 			  		

	 	    The Synod members voted to approve work on a national statutory code to accommodate those within the Church who object to women bishops.

But the Synod rejected compromise plans for new “super bishops” to cater for objectors - and also their preferred option of creating new dioceses.
The decision to go ahead with work on the code came after more than six hours of debate by the General Synod, which saw extraordinary scenes, with one bishop in tears as he spoke of being “ashamed” of the Church of England.
The Rt Rev Stephen Venner, Bishop of Dover, who is in favour of women bishops said: "I have to say, Synod, for the first time in my life, I feel ashamed.
"We have talked for hours about wanting to give an honourable place to those who disagree.
"We have been given opportunities for both views to flourish. We have turned down every, almost realistic opportunity for those who are opposed to flourish.

news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Church-of-England-General-Synod-Backs-Female-Ordination/Article/200807115026204?lpos=UK+News_1&lid=ARTICLE_15026204_Church+of+England+General+Synod+Backs+Female+Ordination

You are speaking of the Church of England, not the Anglican Communion as a whole and third largest Christian denomination in the world. I am now certain that you don’t get that.

 

[Hesychios]

Does the Archbishop have any (for the lack of a better term) “papal” type powers or responsibilities?

No, not even Patriarchal.

If I recall the Parliament has a lot of influence over the C of E policies. The properties and benefices are controlled by government commissions of some sort (probably an improvement over the medieval system they inherited). This does not extend beyond England.

 

[abucs]

I guess it is a difficult time for many of the world wide Anglicans right now.

They certainly seem to have shown plenty of dignity on all sides.

I pray our brothers in Christ will continue to come through these temporary difficulties with dignity.

If some of them decide to be Catholic under the chair of Peter, then i also hope we will show just as much dignity and welcome.

 

[bkovacs]

Hey they still have Lambeth this month. More tears coming for the traditionalists!!. And hopefully more coming back to Rome!.

 

[1234]

…to paraphrase Mark Twain, rumors of the death of the AC have been greatly exaggerated. There have been women priests in the ECA since 1997, who have been very well received and there has been no substantive opposition to women bishops in the USA, except for personal attacks on Presiding Bishop Schori, who supported, or at least defended the consecration of the (first openly) gay bishop of New Hampshire, Bishop Robinson.

…the problem is that aside from the vocal posters on this forum, there isn’t a lot of opposition to gay *marriage *-- that’s not the same thing as a gay bishop, but still…–among RC’s, let alone AC’s–25% oppose according to the latest Pew Research–(highest are among white evangelical Republican males, at twice that). Similarly, there has been broad support for ordaining women in the RC for years.

Well, if there isn’t a lot of opposition to women/gays/ordination/marriage etc. among RC’s, how can there be among AC’s?

…there are the usual older white priests/bishops/retired bishops and noisy high-church types who form little splinter groups here and there. Let’s see how it all plays out. One bishop who was threatened with the loss of x number of priests after the gender flap responded that losing them was fine as he could now fill all those positions with women ordinands!

 

[1234]

…in response to other comments;

Others more knowledgeable than I have commented (somewhere) on this forum that Rome doesn’t really want a lot of little claques or ‘special rite’ types around, who get to use their own (Anglican -related) rites and have married (former Anglican) priests–the latter a situation which creates a lot of resentment among the RC celibate clergy.