How Many Pre Vatican Ii Catholics Here?

[harinkj]

The last Masses that I had attended for years were the Tridentine Latin Mass because I stopped going to Mass sometime when I was in high school :crying: and the Tridentine was the only Mass said then. I have never gone to a Novus Ordo Mass in latin or english because the Tridentine is still available. :clapping:

• Kathie :bowdown:

 

[netmilsmom]

Al Masetti:

Sometimes the expression “pre-Vatican II” is an insulting epithet that is cast at people who merely simply want to restore reverence for the Mass (and for the Church, in general).

Amen!

The “old Baltimore Catechism” and memorization is “pre-Vatican II”.

And now, or in the 80’s and 90’s, people who spent their CCD time coloring pictures and making banners don’t know nuthin’ 'bout the Church. They don’t know the “technical terms” such as vincible and invincible ignorance] and stuff like that. It is tough enough for those of us who DID have 12 years of Catholic education to cope with real life. But for folks with NO actual education or training, it is near impossible. [sigh]

It wasn’t only the CCD kids, we were in a Catholic school and our “rap you in the knuckles” principal was replaced with a younger sister who “was better able to relate to the kids” At that point, we were told “Jesus is everywhere.” (focus off the Eucharist) and the Holy Spirit will guide you. I even took off my First Communion crucifix and and put on a silver dove.
I can’t tell you how many of my friends used “The Holy Spirit spoke to me.” to rationalize bad behavior. Afterall, Sister Patricia Marie (who left to marry 5 years after teaching us) said that we judge ourselves before the Lord, so if you don’t think it’s a sin, it’s not. When the Holy Spirit tells a 14 year old girl that she can disobey her parents and get drunk on wine, because Jesus drank wine, this child has been given no guidance. And trust me the “Holy Spirit” spoke to us a lot.
That’s what the post Vatican II era did for those of us who lived through the change. Left us floating without any oars.

 

[beckyann2597]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

we were told “Jesus is everywhere.” (focus off the Eucharist) and the Holy Spirit will guide you. .

Sounds like you and I had a similar Religious ed experience. I can happily report that at our parish now (where my daughter is being educated) our Director of Religious Education is a convert (ei: on fire for our faith) and very into the children knowing their faith, memorizing prayers I had never heard of (thats not saying much), and knowing terms that sound too big to be coming out of her mouth! She has tests and I quiz her throughout the week. I don’t remember ever taking a test in CCD. So like I siad, I am happy with her education so far.

 

[ncjohn]

I have read the question to mean that you are a pre-V2 Catholic if you were formed in that time frame, not necessarily that you want it back.

I grew up in it and attended Catholic school up through 7th grade before V2. I would not go back for anything in the world personally. I have no problem with the TLM or people who prefer Latin, but I personally felt totally unfulfilled in that environment.

 

[LarryM]

ncjohn:

I have read the question to mean that you are a pre-V2 Catholic if you were formed in that time frame, not necessarily that you want it back.

I grew up in it and attended Catholic school up through 7th grade before V2. I would not go back for anything in the world personally. I have no problem with the TLM or people who prefer Latin, but I personally felt totally unfulfilled in that environment.

Me too.

I was 23 and married when the Council ended in 1965.

I had attended 8 years of Catholic grade school and 4 years of Catholic high school. … went to Mass at a Benedictine Abbey 5 days a week all thru high school.

I do not ever want to go back a pre-V II Mass.

I am fortunate to live in a parish with reverent Masses, good liturgy, and excellent musicians … not sure how I would feel if I was subjected to constant severe liturgical abuses.

Of course, V II was about more than just liturgy … and in other areas, I would not want to return to the pre-V II Church.

 

[robertaf]

Wow
What interesting answers.
Lots of folks here well over 40 years old.
Doesn’t look like the younger folks wanted to join in.

Maybe they still will.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

I was born several years after the Council ended. I attended 13 years of Catholic school (including kindergarten). I received almost zero catechesis in that time. I had no clue about certain aspects of my Faith after I graduated high school. In fact, most everything I learned about the Faith came from my parents and reading some of my dad’s books (“Theology for Beginners”, “St. Andrew Daily Missal”, etc.)

I have a real rage problem that I’m working on (pray for me) against the priests and teachers who robbed me of my spiritual patrimony and refused to teach me the Truth. Instead of the Truth, I got “I’m ok, you’re ok”, insipid English missals, stupid liturgical novelties, hippie homilies and an attempt to make the Faith (as they saw it) “relevant” to young people. Which only succeeded, BTW, in making it irrelevant.

I’m just discovering the TLM in the past few years. It speaks to my sinful heart in a way Father Feelgood’s “liturgies” never did. I might add that God has also blessed me by leading me to several priests in my diocese who say the new Mass with reverence and dignity and aren’t afraid to preach the Truth from the pulpit. I’m still still struggling with the new Mass (pray for me again), mainly because I still associate it with the idiocy of my childhood. But as I study it more I realize what an astounding miracle it is, regardless of Rite. And, I think the new English translations will do wonders to further distance in my mind today’s Mass from what I suffered through in childhood.

So, as to the question of if I’m pre-Vatican II…I guess you could say I am, at least in “Spirit.”

The thought of the horror that I went through in the 70’s and 80’s every Sunday and daily during religion class makes me shudder. I wouldn’t return to that time for all the money in the world.

 

[James0235]

robertaf:

Wow
What interesting answers.
Lots of folks here well over 40 years old.
Doesn’t look like the younger folks wanted to join in.

Maybe they still will.

I am 27 and I sometimes think of myself as a pre-Vatican II Catholic.

For years I found myself dreading going to Mass each Sunday. I always seemed to walk away feeling really down. There are a lot of things in this world that can bring you down and Mass should not be one of them. But all of that changed when I discovered 2 parishes in downtown Columbus.

The first is staffed by a religious order. It is a beautiful, traditional looking Catholic church. It was recently renovated (but not wreckovated). They offer the Novus Ordo Mass with all the smells and bells. Occassionally they will use a little Latin. They have Gregorian chant and beautiful, traditional Catholic hymns in English. It is an amazing place. The priest hear confessions daily. Basically they are the opposite of almost every parish I have attended. It doesn’t get much more Anti “spirit of Vatican II” than this.

The second parish I discovered offers the Tridentine Mass on Sundays, Holy Days, and on First Saturdays. One of the priest ususally hears confessions before the TLM and maybe before the other Masses. The Mass is always chanted, at least on Sundays. It was after attending this parish for awhile that my faith really deepened.

For years I have studied the Bible. I was involved in apologetics. But now I find myself praying the scriptures. I pray parts of the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) daily. And I don’t approach apologetics with the goal of winning an argument but rather with the goal of defending the truth.

Most of the other parishes around town have Masses that seem really tacky to me. I spend more time counting the liturgical abuses than I do praying. I’ve met priests whom I have seen hundreds of times but never once in a Roman collar. I have heard priests make snide remarks during Mass about other priests for actually daring to use incense. And at a Praise and Worship service before a Charismatic Mass I attended, someone got up and admonished everyone there for not praying in tongues. At that point about 90% of the people there began yelling “LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA” over and over again because it was expected. Then a woman began yelling that Virgin Mary was speaking to her and wanted us all to pray in tongues. During the Mass, at the consecration, the same “LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA” was heard again with the same woman telling everyone that the Virgin Mary was pleased.

The norm for most Catholics (at least most of the Catholics that I have met in my life) since Vatican II seems to be a banal, ugly, and sometimes even downright offensive Liturgy. It’s enough to make anyone pine for the days before the Council. It wasn’t perfect but it was certainly better than what some people are forced to endure these days.

This is just my experience. Your experience may be (and hopefully is) much, much different.

God bless,

James

 

[Dr.Bombay]

James0235:

The norm for most Catholics (at least most of the Catholics that I have met in my life) since Vatican II seems to be a banal, ugly, and sometimes even downright offensive Liturgy. It’s enough to make anyone pine for the days before the Council. It wasn’t perfect but it was certainly better than what some people are forced to endure these days.

You took the words right out of my mouth, James. :tiphat:

Banal, ugly and offensive so aptly describes the majority of Masses I’ve attended. As well as insipid, puerile…well, need I go on? I’m praying that when the gray beard 60’s and 70’s hippie priests finally retire and die off, a new crop of young priests will restore reverence and dignity to our Masses. I’m encouraged by what I’ve seen so far, in just my limited experience.

 

[stanley123]

Kristina P.:

. It’s very possible that the increase in the number of annulments has more to do with the increase in the number of divorces in the non-Catholic world. .

I see two problems with your reasoning:

1. The number of divorces has not experienced the explosivbe increase as the number of annulments in the USA. It is nowhere close. The annulment rate has gone from 9 in 1930 to more than 61,000 in 1989, this is an increase of more than 500,000 percent over a 70 year period. The number of divorces in the USA has not increased at this same rate.
2. A divorce is not the same as an annulment. According to the Catholic teaching, when an annulment is given, it is a confirmation that there never was a Sacramental marriage in the first place. This is not the same as a divorce, where the couple say that they were married, but the marriage didn’t work out, and so they decide to end it and break up and start anew. In the Catholic case, which I don;t think is paralleled in any other Church, the number of invalid marriages has shot up from 9 in the year 1930 to more than 61,000 in 1989. The people have gone through the ceremony, but the mariage never happened Sacramentally.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

I have a real rage problem that I’m working on (pray for me) against the priests and teachers who robbed me of my spiritual patrimony and refused to teach me the Truth. Instead of the Truth, I got “I’m ok, you’re ok”, insipid English missals, stupid liturgical novelties, hippie homilies and an attempt to make the Faith (as they saw it) “relevant” to young people. Which only succeeded, BTW, in making it irrelevant.

I’m just discovering the TLM in the past few years. It speaks to my sinful heart in a way Father Feelgood’s “liturgies” never did. I might add that God has also blessed me by leading me to several priests in my diocese who say the new Mass with reverence and dignity and aren’t afraid to preach the Truth from the pulpit. I’m still still struggling with the new Mass (pray for me again), mainly because I still associate it with the idiocy of my childhood. But as I study it more I realize what an astounding miracle it is, regardless of Rite. And, I think the new English translations will do wonders to further distance in my mind today’s Mass from what I suffered through in childhood.

I am right with you on the anger part. Not only for me, but for all of my classmates who never really knew right from wrong. Mom and Dad could teach what they want, but the modern nuns, modern priests and lay teachers, undid all that.
After watching my parish go downhill from same kind of Catholics who screwed up so many my age, to the point that I was unteaching with the help of a St. Joseph Cathechism book, all that my two daughters were learning in “Religious Formation”, I escaped to an “Old Tyme”, “traditional”, “conservative”, “correct Post VII” (whatever one calls it) parish.
In some ways I still have heartache about the children I left behind. I assisted in “Religious Formation”. I know what they are learning. When the Ash Wednesday class is a celebration of Mardi Gras and when the First Grade teacher asks the class who the Pope is and a child answers “Pope John” and told he is right. Never a mention of the miracle of the Eucharist to the First Communicants until Feb (and then it’s a meal), no big ceremony, just pick a mass. Any First Communicant who make it together standing around the Altar for the Consecration, putting the Alleluia away for lent with bells and cheers in the main. The place slid down in the five years I was there.
And do you know what the biggest heartache is to me? I could escape. I could go to that very reverent parish. Hundreds of thousands of Catholics go every Sunday, empty. Yes it is valid, yes there is nothing illicit, but they feel nothing but an obligation. That breaks my heart.
I don’t care if you want a lively mass, with guitars, swaying, holding hands, anything goes, but offer those of us who want the reverence and silence our place too.
And it would be very helpful if those in charge got over the fact that just because we don’t like a Charismatic Mass, does not mean that we are not being Christian. We just don’t feel Catholic there.
/rant off/

 

[MrS]

puzzleannie:

Am I the last surviving person who had 4 years of Latin in my Catholic high school?

nope…I did too…what a wonderful experience:nerd:

 

[MrS]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I don’t care if you want a lively mass, with guitars, swaying, holding hands, anything goes, but offer those of us who want the reverence and silence our place too.
And it would be very helpful if those in charge got over the fact that just because we don’t like a Charismatic Mass, does not mean that we are not being Christian. We just don’t feel Catholic there.
/rant off/

amen to that…as Scott Hahn has said “Catholics will agree that there is probably a place in the Catholic Church for the charismatic movement…Charismatics often feel there is a place for the Catholic Church in the Charismatic movement.”

 

[MrS]

Dr. Bombay:

You took the words right out of my mouth, James. :tiphat:

Banal, ugly and offensive so aptly describes the majority of Masses I’ve attended. As well as insipid, puerile…well, need I go on? I’m praying that when the gray beard 60’s and 70’s hippie priests finally retire and die off, a new crop of young priests will restore reverence and dignity to our Masses. I’m encouraged by what I’ve seen so far, in just my limited experience.

And it is already happening…

They need to be strong, and they will be if we pray more now than ever before for these newer priests.

A local pastor already is being attacked after only a few months in his assignment…both with secret meetings to try and oust him, and with direct verbal confrontations after Mass. He is orthodox, zealous, and devoted. He will succeed by teaching and by example (he prays in front of the tabernacle before each Mass…and the crowd noise is beginning to lessen already).

 

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I am right with you on the anger part. Not only for me, but for all of my classmates who never really knew right from wrong. Mom and Dad could teach what they want, but the modern nuns, modern priests and lay teachers, undid all that.
After watching my parish go downhill from same kind of Catholics who screwed up so many my age, to the point that I was unteaching with the help of a St. Joseph Cathechism book, all that my two daughters were learning in “Religious Formation”, I escaped to an “Old Tyme”, “traditional”, “conservative”, “correct Post VII” (whatever one calls it) parish.
In some ways I still have heartache about the children I left behind. I assisted in “Religious Formation”. I know what they are learning. When the Ash Wednesday class is a celebration of Mardi Gras and when the First Grade teacher asks the class who the Pope is and a child answers “Pope John” and told he is right. Never a mention of the miracle of the Eucharist to the First Communicants until Feb (and then it’s a meal), no big ceremony, just pick a mass. Any First Communicant who make it together standing around the Altar for the Consecration, putting the Alleluia away for lent with bells and cheers in the main. The place slid down in the five years I was there.
And do you know what the biggest heartache is to me? I could escape. I could go to that very reverent parish. Hundreds of thousands of Catholics go every Sunday, empty. Yes it is valid, yes there is nothing illicit, but they feel nothing but an obligation. That breaks my heart.
I don’t care if you want a lively mass, with guitars, swaying, holding hands, anything goes, but offer those of us who want the reverence and silence our place too.
And it would be very helpful if those in charge got over the fact that just because we don’t like a Charismatic Mass, does not mean that we are not being Christian. We just don’t feel Catholic there.
/rant off/

I’ve been pondering the phrase, “It’s better to light a candle than curse the darkness” lately. I guess I’m cautiously optimistic. Mainly because of our good new bishop. Even though he’s only been in charge a few months, he’s already dumped McBrien from the diocesan newspaper, which is getting more and more orthodox every week. He’s appointed faithful priests, religious and lay people to some key positions in the chancery office, he’s encouraging Adoration and just last Sunday he announced he was giving our Latin Mass Community our very own church. No more “borrowing” someone else’s altar!

My spiritual director is a young priest from another diocese who says Mass reverently (and in Latin every 1st Saturday) and loves the Faith. The neigboring archdiocese has a solid archbishop and a thriving Latin Mass Community of it’s own, as well as a huge number of Adoration Chapels. Then I remember watching EWTN after the election of Benedict. All those young seminarians who were just glowing with excitement and love for the Church.

Oh, we’ve got problems. And it does bother me too to know that there are still children being taught nonsense instead of the True Faith. But maybe the tide is turning? Oremus.

Like Mr. S says, we need to pray for our priests and let the good ones we encounter know we appreciate them.

 

[netmilsmom]

MrS:

And it is already happening…

They need to be strong, and they will be if we pray more now than ever before for these newer priests.

A local pastor already is being attacked after only a few months in his assignment…both with secret meetings to try and oust him, and with direct verbal confrontations after Mass. He is orthodox, zealous, and devoted. He will succeed by teaching and by example (he prays in front of the tabernacle before each Mass…and the crowd noise is beginning to lessen already).

OH God Bless HIM!!!
We have a group of ladies that get together every second Thursday of the month to pray for good traditional priests and to help those priests who are bombarded by the secular world.
I will be able to go back and join them for a full rosary next month when my girls go back to GS. I will remember him!

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

I’ve been pondering the phrase, “It’s better to light a candle than curse the darkness” lately. I guess I’m cautiously optimistic.

I am with you.
I see our parish 750 families and growing while the “Happy Catholic” Communities are folding.
God Bless Fr. Ben and all our priests!

 

[Kristina_P]

stanley123:

I see two problems with your reasoning:

1. The number of divorces has not experienced the explosivbe increase as the number of annulments in the USA. It is nowhere close. The annulment rate has gone from 9 in 1930 to more than 61,000 in 1989, this is an increase of more than 500,000 percent over a 70 year period. The number of divorces in the USA has not increased at this same rate.
2. A divorce is not the same as an annulment. According to the Catholic teaching, when an annulment is given, it is a confirmation that there never was a Sacramental marriage in the first place. This is not the same as a divorce, where the couple say that they were married, but the marriage didn’t work out, and so they decide to end it and break up and start anew. In the Catholic case, which I don;t think is paralleled in any other Church, the number of invalid marriages has shot up from 9 in the year 1930 to more than 61,000 in 1989. The people have gone through the ceremony, but the mariage never happened Sacramentally.

Thank you for your response. I agree with you in part. Still, my original objection holds. Correlation does not prove causation. I don’t think one can put the blame solely on the second Vatican Council. Increasing outside hostility to Catholic values could very well have an influence on people inside the Church. Changing the language of the liturgy, etc. doesn’t necessarily mean that people are going to go out and have non-sacramental marriages.

 

[stanley123]

Kristina P.:

Changing the language of the liturgy, etc. doesn’t necessarily mean that people are going to go out and have non-sacramental marriages.

I was talking more about changing the rules for granting an annulment rather than the change in language. The ground rules were changed after Vatican II, according to which, soft psychological factors and behavioral problems are now allowed for granting the annulment, which were not in place before Vatican II. In my personal opinion, this easing up on the conditions required for the annulment has led to the explosive increase in the number of annulments.
To refute the idea that the high annulment rate is due to we poor catechesis, or the attitudes of the surrounding culture, we read the following excerpt from the Homiletic and Pastoral Review, January 2005,Judging invalidity the American way*
By Sheryl Temaat

“Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.

But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”?

These words are simple enough that fourteen-year-olds can understand them. However **no one can be perfect enough today to survive a Petitioner’s efforts to have his or her marriage declared null *by most American diocesan tribunals. “

 

[rwoehmke]

puzzleannie:

Am I the last surviving person who had 4 years of Latin in my Catholic high school?

No Annie, my 27 classmates from Holy Cross High, Marine City Michigan all had 4 years and are all still kicking. My wife who is four years younger than I and attended Holy Redeemer in Detroit had four years. I skipped ninth grade in a Catholic School and was not allowed or required to take latin when I switched back as a sophomore.

Vatican II was a low point in my life. I was totally angry about having had to live in the old ways. Today I am gratefull for how well I was grounded in our Faith, but would not want to go back. In my opinion those young folks who came after me in CCD and RFP or whatever after Vatican II really got totally short changed.