How Many Pre Vatican Ii Catholics Here?

[Kristina_P]

stanley123:

I was talking more about changing the rules for granting an annulment rather than the change in language. The ground rules were changed after Vatican II, according to which, soft psychological factors and behavioral problems are now allowed for granting the annulment, which were not in place before Vatican II. In my personal opinion, this easing up on the conditions required for the annulment has led to the explosive increase in the number of annulments.
To refute the idea that the high annulment rate is due to we poor catechesis, or the attitudes of the surrounding culture, we read the following excerpt from the Homiletic and Pastoral Review, January 2005,Judging invalidity the American way*
*By Sheryl Temaat

“Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.

But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”?

These words are simple enough that fourteen-year-olds can understand them. However **no one can be perfect enough today to survive a Petitioner’s efforts to have his or her marriage declared null **by most American diocesan tribunals. “

Thanks very much for the explanation. The reason for my objections was that I was very much taken aback by the earlier poster’s assertion that post-Vatican II Catholics were “practicing a different religion” as it sort of implied that I was converting to an heretical Church. If that were the case, why leave the Protestant camp?

 

[stanley123]

Kristina P.:

Thanks very much for the explanation.

Hello Kristina:
You are very welcome. If you are a new convert, I would suggest you read the catechism of the CC, and then study some of the articles here on CA. For example, it is time well spent for someone to go to the home page here (of CA) and read articles of interest in My Rock, and articles of interest in the library. My personal opinion is that these articles present a sound approach to Catholicism.
BTW, the catechism of the CC is online at:
usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm

 

[moosears]

My first experience in the Church was with a pre-V2 parish after disillusionment with the protestant sects. We went to a church with a couple of nuns ( I was intrigued with nuns for some reason) and the priest who flew into town to say the Tridentine Mass explained the whole sede vacante position they held and why. I believed it. It made absolute sense to me at the time but I never took into account that dogme of the Church of the primacy and indefecability of the See of St. Peter. Besides, NO ONE CAN JUDGE THE FIRST SEE.
If one adheres to that dogmatic doctrine then their whole premise about the post V2 popes, Mass and sacraments being invalid falls apart. I finally realized that most of these people are conspiracy theorists and are afraid of any change what so ever. I finally got away from all of that thanks to a priest with the FSSP.

If there are any (EDITED) reading this you will undoubtedly think to yourself that that was Pope John Paul II underhanded plan to attempt to bring (EDITED) back to the “VII” Church. But remember what I said and what the Church has ALWAYS taught “NO ONE CAN JUDGE THE FIRST SEE”. Please for your own sakes think long and hard about this doctrine and try to understand that there is no subterfuge here on the part of the Holy Fathers since the passing of Pope Pius XII. Just a lot of misunderstanding on the part of a lot of people. Sister Lucia of Fatime called it a diabolical disorientation but never criticized the Church or the Popes. She was given special graces by God and is a good example for us to follow.

 

[plato3]

I have enjoyed the Mass from the 1940s until now. I remember people saying their rosary during the Latin Mass. I remember people passing out because of the mandatory fast from midnight. There is no excuse now for people to not understand just what is going on at Mass. There is an opportunity to attend the Latin Mass in most dioceses. I read a great article today that says as a country gets more affluent, Mass attendence goes down. Materialism keeps more folks home than the type of service. In the poorer countries where each day is a struggle, all the Christian Churches are thriving. The “Me First” generation tends to believe that they are in charge and they don’t need God.

 

[mgy100]

Passing out from fasting from midnight? Hmmm, I’ve seen people eat no meat, dairy, oil, things cooked with oil or wine forbidden, no seafood… for weeks and some do this during lent as well. I never saw anyone pass out.
I think the best thing is we actually get to say the Our Father, and response. I’m not big on the responsorial pslam. I think sometimes mass is said too fast and the music is horrid. But I still like one bread one body song… I wouldn’t mind people using some older hymns like veni creator spiritus or so forth.
I can remember this one parish… it was a circle and they totally were the most non-Catholic parish I have ever seen. I am lucky that here, most masses and churces are reverant. I’m neutral on the altar girl thing, but my daughter WILL NEVER be one.
I wish the translation would reflect the Latin.
I’m not old enough to be pre vat… but I came about not long after the 1970 missal was implicated and did suffer through things that were more “hippy.”
I still don’t like guitar masses. I still wish the asperges me was sung on sundays.
I’ve seen the Tridentine Mass. It is awesome, but I think the current mass is too when done with respect and prayer. I think the missal of 1965 would have been a good place to leave it off.

 

[silverwings_88]

I don’t know, I definitely do like both masses, the TLM and the NO. Despite the cheesy music, I love dialogue masses because I can actually respond and pray, and my priest and congregation in the morning does it quite reverently.

I have just recently went to my first TLM this sunday, and my, all I can say it was quite beautiful, and DIFFERENT!! The only problem was that there wasn’t much response as there were latin (which I couldn’t follow, due to unfamiliarity), as I am a favour of the way dialogued masses worked. Compared to all of BC, only one small church in New Westminster here offers the TLM, and I must bus there in order to participate x_x.

 

[Al_Masetti]

One of my concerns is that people are no longer educated in the terminology of Catholicism. For example, the definitions of fast and abstinence.

Abstaining from meat or one food or another is one thing.

A fast means something totally different… nothing by mouth… no thing. (maybe water was allowed)

Nowadays we understand about blood sugar levels and all that… but back then, nothing from supper time until well into the next day… it’s a whole nuther trip. Add some HOT August weather and no airconditioning… packed into a hot room with hundreds of other people… with no air circulation except for a couple of tall fans. Nowadays we might actually be able to measure the temperature of the room.

The ushers used to set out folding chairs in the vestibule of the church and carry out the folks who fainted.

 

[Larry_B]

I am a Pre Vatican II and a Post Vatican II Catholic. My 1stt Holy Communion missal is a hybrid of the Tridentine Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass (IE: prayers at the foot of the altar but in English and priest facing the people).

I say I am both as I accept all of Holy Mother Church’s teachings pre & post. I don’t accept dissent in any flavor even if it looks and tastes like chocolate.

Larry

 

[mosher]

I love reading on hear about the hippie feeling of the mass at one point or another during the 70’s till now at the so called “folk” masses. Remember, I am only 25 so my frame of reference is much different than most here but I still remember as a child younger than 8 not being able to stand the what I called at that age “the hippie band in the corner” and that stupid (I never used stupid back then but it works) tamberine. I just think that it was funny that even at that age my liturgical sensabilities were insulted by modern praxis.

 

[netmilsmom]

mosher:

I am only 25 .

You are extremely wise for your years!
I wish that some of the 50 and up Progressive Catholics could see it your way!

 

[mozier]

I am a Pre-Vatican II Catholic, in my heart and soul.

I do accept the Post-Vatican II church and the Novus Ordo mass. Yet many times, I feel as if I were born 100 years too late. I would have loved to have lived in the actual Pre-Vatican II church, with its beautiful Latin liturgies, deep devotions to the Blessed Mother and The Saints, and most importantly, the absolute certainty that we are the One Truth Religion, instead of “just another denomination,” as our church’s attitude seems to be these days. So though I may go to the Novus Ordo (with no problems), I practice my private prayers and devotions as they once were done.

 

[netmilsmom]

mozier:

I am a Pre-Vatican II Catholic, in my heart and soul.

I do accept the Post-Vatican II church and the Novus Ordo mass. Yet many times, I feel as if I were born 100 years too late. I would have loved to have lived in the actual Pre-Vatican II church, with its beautiful Latin liturgies, deep devotions to the Blessed Mother and The Saints, and most importantly, the absolute certainty that we are the One Truth Religion, instead of “just another denomination,” as our church’s attitude seems to be these days. So though I may go to the Novus Ordo (with no problems), I practice my private prayers and devotions as they once were done.

Well, as I said before, some people need to realize that just because one is allowed to have a Charismatic mass, doesn’t mean that I feel like a Catholic there.
God Bless you Friend!

 

[lagin]

At age 56, I, too, am a Pre Vatican II Catholic. I remember the Mass in Latin, attending daily Mass with the rest of my class, and the way the Diocese of Buffalo, NY ushered in the changes in the Mass, giving way to the Novus Ordo.

There are some things that bother me but I take them as being a misinterpretation of what Vatican II was striving for. The parish I belong to does not have kneelers in the main body of the church and we stand or sit during the Mass. I try to do so reverently. I would kneel during the Consecration, even on the cold, hard floor, but my arthritis makes getting up and down THAT far next to impossible.

Some of the music delights my soul and draws me closer to God. A good bit of it irritates me.

HOWEVER, there is one thing I am eternally grateful for and that is the opportunity to pray the Mass in English. I am more focused during Mass than I ever was when it was all in Latin. Frankly, I found the Latin distracting. Even with the help of a Missal, I could not concentrate. Perhaps I’m dyslexic or something. To hear the words of the Consecration in a language that I can understand is a grace and a blessing and I thank God that I was born when I was so that I could witness this change.

ginny

 

[stbruno]

Our son took four years of Honors Latin and then two more years at the U of Illinois…achieving a perfect score on his placement entrance exam. He is not majoring in Latin, but he has enjoyed minoring in it. He is pursuing a study of science and it seems to be helping him somewhat. His mother calls him when she needs help with her crossword puzzle Latin questions

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

stanley123:

…Homiletic and Pastoral Review, January 2005,Judging invalidity the American way* *
**By Sheryl Temaat

“Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.

But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”?

*These words are simple enough that fourteen-year-olds can understand them. However **no one can be perfect enough today to survive a Petitioner’s efforts to have his or her marriage declared null ***by most American diocesan tribunals. “

Well, they are easy to understand.

Yet, some people never intend to keep them when they pronounce them. Some people are incapable of keeping them because of an impediment that missed detection during the marriage preparation. Some people are just liars in a culture that discounts lies as something we all do, or some sort of psychological cover-up.

For these reasons, an innocent party does not need to suffer for the rest of his or her life.

And despite the number of people seekign anullments, there are some who are turned down for one, who don’t meet the cirteria.

 

[space_ghost]

…i am one… and i believe only now are we really starting to understand and appreciate the ramifications of Vatican II…

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

I am a proud pre-Vatican II Catholic.

 

[BayCityRickL]

robertaf:

So… when I read posts written by folks who love (or don’t love) the ways and customs (head coverings, etc) of the Pre-Vatican II days, it makes me curious how they formed their opinions.

I was about 15 when the Council ended and the changes in the Mass started.

At the parish level, the school was still staffed with nuns. You could have nuns for 12 years of education, as I did. They did not seem happy. You could do a lot of favors for the nuns, but if you did one thing wrong, it was like they never forgot it.

I was an altar server, and lighting the candles before Mass was a big challenge. The tip of the candles seemed to be about 10 feet off the ground, because they were tall. and, it was a challenge to light them. The altars were decorated magnificently by the nuns.

The music in church was formal at the high Mass, with a full choir and organ. compared to the current piano accompaniment, the modern music sounds more like a dance hall. The full organ and choir made you feel like you had been at a concert, and lifted to great heights, as if at a concert.

The Mass in Latin did not seem to phase me, and I took it in stride. The Mass books that we had put the translation right there, so it was no big deal to me. Saying all the Latin verses correctly as an altar server was a big challenge. I did not have the enough training.

But, much of the grandeur of the Latin Mass was lost in the translation the the “vernacular” English. somehow, the guitar music got a foothold in the music liturgy. But, the quality was transitory, like popular music you hear today.

In the Latin Mass, the music can get skunky and dull. You get the feeling if you watch some of the EWTN Masses. There’s really a large amount of great music for the Mass, and I wonder why EWTN gravitates to the monotone melodies that sound like a dirge. That music gives you a feeling why it was changed. After all, everything doesn’t have to sound like a funeral, right?

The biggest change seems to be the loss of the nuns and a lot of the priests. With the right music, the Mass can be a real celebration and emotionally lifting. Let’s face it: The music doesn’t have to be dragged down to the level of untrained singers, like the congregation is.

In the U.S., the loss of catechesis has been due to the loss of the ranks of the teaching sisters. They really carried the ball on catechesis. For a long time, there were lay teachers who seemed to feel they weren’t qualified to teach “religion.” And, so, there has been a meltdown of catechesis, and now they say there are two generations of Catholics who don’t know their faith. More people don’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and it shouldn’t be that way. And, a lot of Catholics don’t attend Mass.

In addition to the loss of thousands of teaching sisters, the loss of priests who left the church for one reason or another (maybe disillusioned one way or another), and the sex scandal, the Council is credited for a lot of non-orthodox teaching in the Church. This is very widespread and the Catechism is not supported in my diocese. There is widespread rejection of it. The Catechism is forcing doctrine down the throats of priests and nuns and others who have found it more convenient to make up their own doctrines.

The biggest problem in the Church today is the problem of so many people making up their own doctrines and passing them off as Church doctrines. That has been the real problem since Vatican II. It takes many forms.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

mosher:

I love reading on hear about the hippie feeling of the mass at one point or another during the 70’s till now at the so called “folk” masses. Remember, I am only 25 so my frame of reference is much different than most here but I still remember as a child younger than 8 not being able to stand the what I called at that age “the hippie band in the corner” and that stupid (I never used stupid back then but it works) tamberine. I just think that it was funny that even at that age my liturgical sensabilities were insulted by modern praxis.

Mosher I might be slightly older but have only been in Church two years. When I visit my parents who are non-C I dislike the way their Calvinist liturgy has become modern at warp speed. I love my Catholic parish - with the kneelers, patens, tabernacle, crucifix, bowing, genuflecting. It takes work to understand all this stuff It’s a spirtual and mental excercise and at times physical. I naturally am resistiant to change and always have been. Since I have been “raised” with the new mass I don’t understand the old. I thought I was the only postVat II here.

 

[moosears]

I voted “other” because my family and I converted ten years ago but, we converted at a Traditional Parish which had broke communion with the Holy See over the changes. This was the first catholic church we went to. After a chain of events that I prefer not to talk about anymore, I started taking a hard look at the post Vatican II Church. Now I enjoy the Mass whether it is the new or the old. They both offer the same spiritual benefits while also presenting the faithful with a different exterior tone to inspire at different levels depending on one’s disposition.
Before I recieved almost all of my info about the pre-Vatican II Church from others in the parish or from books that were recommended to me. Now I see a literal goldmine of information to both explain our Holy Faith and inspire us to go out and make converts, all in modern language that is not so high and mighty that I can’t understand it. So to put it in simple terms I love the Church whether it is post or pre.
May God Bless everyone on this board and draw us ever closer to Himself, so that we may be one in Him who lives and reigns forever and ever, amen.