How Many Pre Vatican Ii Catholics Here?

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hilde the dog:
Mosher I might be slightly older but have only been in Church two years. When I visit my parents who are non-C I dislike the way their Calvinist liturgy has become modern at warp speed. I love my Catholic parish - with the kneelers, patens, tabernacle, crucifix, bowing, genuflecting. It takes work to understand all this stuff It’s a spirtual and mental excercise and at times physical. I naturally am resistiant to change and always have been. Since I have been “raised” with the new mass I don’t understand the old. I thought I was the only postVat II here.
I would suggest reading the documents on the liturgy from Trent till now (major documents only) I think that it will help bring about a deeper understanding of the rich heritage that comes with the Liturgy. Recall that it is in and through the Liturgy that we are to expereince the Sacra Doctrina. It is how the Early Church Fathers speak to us today and how the Gospel becomes alive and present. A study of the liturgy is not just a study of praxis but it is the study of the faith lived and experienced and it is in and through the Liturgy that the line of causality reaches from the Logos in the begining to us here today.

A few books to own and read are:

“Spirit of the Liturgy” by Romano Guardini
“Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
“Looking at the Liturgy” by Fr. Aidann Nichols
“The Lambs Supper” by Dr. Scott Hahn

There are many other more difficult reads but these are a great begining apart from the actual documents (for all of them I would refer you to www.adoremus.org for a complete listing) for a deeper study and refelction on our faith lived in and with and through the Liturgy of the Church.
 
Having been born in 1934 - I am definitely a pre-Vatican II Catholic.Furthermore, I attended the falsely so-called “Tridentine Mass” (In whatever Rite - the Mass is the Mass, is the Mass and, in fact, there was no such Missal issued EVER called the Tridentine Missal) for approx. 59 of my 71 years.

Inasmuch as I am a revert from the SSPX schism (an adherent from 1973 to 1997) and am fully reconciled to Holy Mother Church and attend the normative rite of the Church at my local parish - then, I am also a post-Vatican II Catholic.

Glory and thanks be to God for His boundless mercy.
 
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mosher:
I would suggest reading the documents on the liturgy from Trent till now (major documents only) I think that it will help bring about a deeper understanding of the rich heritage that comes with the Liturgy. Recall that it is in and through the Liturgy that we are to expereince the Sacra Doctrina. It is how the Early Church Fathers speak to us today and how the Gospel becomes alive and present. A study of the liturgy is not just a study of praxis but it is the study of the faith lived and experienced and it is in and through the Liturgy that the line of causality reaches from the Logos in the begining to us here today.

A few books to own and read are:

“Spirit of the Liturgy” by Romano Guardini
“Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
“Looking at the Liturgy” by Fr. Aidann Nichols
“The Lambs Supper” by Dr. Scott Hahn

There are many other more difficult reads but these are a great begining apart from the actual documents (for all of them I would refer you to www.adoremus.org for a complete listing) for a deeper study and refelction on our faith lived in and with and through the Liturgy of the Church.
Mosher Thanks for the reply I have read “Spirit of the Liturgy” by PBXVI and Scott Hahn’s book. I’ve got my own little library of about 25 books on Catholicism since I joined. Some days I wonder if my Church has a library. Hilde the dog
 
Al Masetti:
Nowadays we understand about blood sugar levels and all that… but back then, nothing from supper time until well into the next day… it’s a whole nuther trip. Add some HOT August weather and no airconditioning… packed into a hot room with hundreds of other people… with no air circulation except for a couple of tall fans. Nowadays we might actually be able to measure the temperature of the room.

The ushers used to set out folding chairs in the vestibule of the church and carry out the folks who fainted.
I think you’re perhaps a little misleading here. The rule was nothing from midnight until one made one’s communion; and there were plenty of very early Masses, both Sundays and weekdays. People who went ‘well into the next day’, and heard Mass at, say, 10 or 11 o’clock, often didn’t receive Communion - there was no stigma about that, and those around simply assumed that the non-receivers had broken their fast.

Don’t you feel it’s gone too far the other way? One hour before Communion, reduced to 15 minutes for those who have problems: it just means not eating from about the Gospel onwards! The three-hour fast introduced well before VII was a reasonable compromise, I’ve always thought - not medically unwise (even for diabetics), but enough to make one realise that one is fasting just a little. Heavens, I’ll refrain from food for most of the day if I’m going to eat out in a good restaurant: can’t I do far less than that to honour our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament?

On the overall question: I don’t know whether I’m a pre- or post-VII Catholic because of my odd religious background. Briefly: I’m Jewish by birth, but was attracted to Catholicism from the age of 12, and secretly attended Mass, read Catholic books, etc, without my parents’ knowledge - that was from 1965 - but when I was 16, fell in love with a boy who was ‘converted’ to Evangelical Protestantism in his first term at Cambridge, so I obediently became an Evangelical too. After 28 years as an Evangelical, married to a guy I’d met through the Oxford Christian Union, I had a sudden and rather extraordinary conversion to Catholicism.

The Mass as I’d known it was ‘Tridentine’, but always dialogue - I don’t think I ever attended a High Mass; in Latin, obviously, but I did seven years of Latin at school, and that wasn’t a problem. When I was received, in 1998, it was all Novus Ordo. My parish doesn’t go in for abuses on the whole, and although I missed the Latin and thought that much of the ICEL version was rather poor, I didn’t immediately realise what was going on in the wider church, so to speak. That took time. Meanwhile, an elderly friend with no transport needed to go to the Indult Masses which took place at times in our area, and I would take her. Initially I was very puzzled by the old rite - no dialogue, so much silence…I remember being horrified that the Elevation took place before I’d even realised that the Host had been consecrated! However, it grew on me - I’d now go quite a long way for an traditional Mass. (In fact, when we were in the USA on holiday earlier this month, I drove across Chicago, where we were staying for two days, to get to the 6.30 am Mass at St John Cantius, which is in the old rite.)

So where do I fit in? I certainly was attending Mass and reading Catholic stuff before 1969, when the rite was changed; but I’m not really a pre-Vatican II Catholic, as when the Council started, I was about 8! My spiritual nourishment these days is about 60% pre-VII stuff, though there are a lot of good books out there written more recently: we had to buy an extra suitcase to hold all the books - largely Ignatius Press - which I’d bought in the States!

There - I’ve obeyed the instruction ‘Please explain’, and I’m sorry if it’s gone on too long.

Sue
 
Actually, it seems that the census information should provide the answer. Anyone older than about 40 is a pre-vatican II Catholic. That would be somewhat over 3/4 of the population. Of course the wording of the poll could cause some confusion and erroneous results.
 
All of these pre-Vatican II Catholics - post-Vatican Catholic labels seem quite sad to me. How about Catholic? This whole thread reminds me of Theodore Roosevelt’s “Hyphenated Americans” speech.
 
there si no such thing as Pre Vatican II or post-Catican II. Its all one Chucrth. Perhapes I am just to young to knwo the diffence, but arn’t we all loyal to the same pope? Shoundn’t we take the alws as si?

IPeople call tehmselves Pre Vatican II or Post Vatican II, because they ahve all taken it the wrong way. tehre is a term used called the “spirit of Vatican II”, people lvoe tot ake that Council and put words in Our Holy FAthers mouth, and use it as an exscuse to disobey teh Faith. Meanwhile because of that, other people thing taht somehow Vatican II was false, because they don’t understand what Vatican II really was.
 
I think that the purpose for this poll was not to be devisive but to get a feel for where each of us on one or the other side of Vatican II come from in our faith formation. This tends to be a very important factor in ones formulation of their positions on particular issues.
 
Al Masetti:
A fast means something totally different… nothing by mouth… no thing. (maybe water was allowed)
NO, WATER WAS NOT ALLOWED! The teaching sisters would warn us to be very careful when brushing out teeth on Sunday mornings!

Sorry, I remember hot weather masses, but have never witnessed fainting. I remember the fans, and was grateful for them, and for the short sermons on those days. The masses were speeded up somewhat, but the reverence was still there!
 
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bear06:
All of these pre-Vatican II Catholics - post-Vatican Catholic labels seem quite sad to me. How about Catholic? This whole thread reminds me of Theodore Roosevelt’s “Hyphenated Americans” speech.
They are not labels, they are classifications.
I may be Catholic, but I don’t attend a Charismatic or Traditional mass.
It’s a way to find like minded people.
 
I’m about 20 years too young to have been born a pre-vatican II Catholic!
 
Al Masetti:
He said that the only indiginous American musical instrument is the banjo.
Actually, the roots of the banjo are in West Africa and came to this country with the slave trade along with okra and peanuts and a number of other things.

The only indiginous instruments are the drums, flutes, rattles and whistles used by many Native America Catholics in their Masses.

hope this helps…
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
They are not labels, they are classifications.
I may be Catholic, but I don’t attend a Charismatic or Traditional mass.
It’s a way to find like minded people.
And yet, it tends to be so divisive. I really doubt you can find even one thread where people are “classifying” themselves as pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II that hasn’t digressed into a thread in which one of these groups is bashing the beloved Mass of another.
 
Im only 17 and I’ve never attended the old mass. I hear my granparents talk about how it was. I love to read their old missals, which are BEAUTIFUL!

My Grandpa talks about the old mass with a nostalgia similar to that of then Cardinal Ratzinger in his book Memoirs. He is upset about changes, but he still is Catholic and did not run off to a schismatic sect.

My grandpas quote, “its their train, let 'em run it.”
 
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puzzleannie:
Am I the last surviving person who had 4 years of Latin in my Catholic high school?
I passed Latin at “O-Level” (16 yrs old) - not sure how that compares to USA. So I grew up in pre-vatican II Latin Mass days.
I would never want to go back to that.
 
I went through nine years of Catholic school back in the 70s and some changes had already occurred while others were in the process. The organ and choir had already been replaced by some guy with a guitar so I don’t remember how it was before. What I do remember is when they started offering the Eucharist in the hand instead of directly in the mouth. This was quickly followed by laypersons handing out Communion.
I could never quite take the Catholic Mass seriously for some reason and I didn’t understand this until relatively recently. Though my parents sent me to Catholic school, I was baptized and raised in the Greek Orthodox Church. I always knew that the Orthodox service was unique and different from the Catholic Mass but the difference was never more apparent to me than when I started dating my wife (who is Catholic).
I hadn’t been to a Catholic Mass in about twenty years and I was stunned, disappointed and saddened by my experience when I returned. I understand that the individual church community has a lot of influence on the church environment, but my experience was virtually the same at each Catholic church we attended. Let me give a quick rundown of the things that stood out to me:
  • Overall, the lack of reverence at the churches was beyond belief. And it all starts with the way people are dressed. Every time we attend a Catholic Mass, I’m the only person wearing a suit. Jeans, shorts, t-shirts, sweatshirts, and gym shoes were typical attire. At one church, the guy up there playing the guitar was wearing a football jersey! I felt especially bad for the kids. They didn’t know any better, they were just mimicking their parents.
  • And did I miss something, or has the priest become increasingly irrelevant to the Mass? Most of the time he is sitting off to the side while others (laypersons) are up reading scripture, or giving sermons and such. When the priest finally does take a more active role he is speaking and not singing/chanting. If a priest chooses to speak instead of sing/chant that is fine with me but I feel he should be consistent. At the point of transubstatiation, and after only speaking his lines up to this point, the priest will sing and raise his arms in a symbolic fashion. But after cleansing the entire Mass of any symbolism beforehand this attempt at symbolism feels forced, uncomfortable and out of place.
  • I understand now that some churches are allowing alter girls. One church we attended had only girls. I’m sure this is an outward attempt to get girls more involved but what I really feel it is is an attempt by activists to eventually get their parish to ordain women priests. If you think I am overreacting consider that one Catholic church we attended announced on their marquee their times for “gay” Mass.
  • One last thing, and this goes back to the whole “reverance” and “relevance of the priest” issue. When I go to an Orthodox service and receive Communion I know that I will be receiving it directly form the priest with an alter boy assisting. And when I receive the Antidoron, it is usually directly from the priest as I (respectfully) kiss his hand. At every Catholic Mass I’ve been to recently, Communion looks like a free-for-all. Sure, the priest is giving Communion but then so is the guy with the guitar, and the usher and the lady sitting next to me. What’s next? Self-serve, Eucharist vending machines?
I know not all Catholic churches are like what I described, but far too many of them are. I have a tremendous respect for the Catholic Church and what it teaches. My problem is with the culture of many of the indiviual parishes. I cried (tears of relief and joy) when Pope Bendict XVI was presented to the world. I’m praying that he use his power and influence to reverse these cultural trends and save these parishes from turning in to so many feel-good, do-whatever-you-want, figure-out-the-Bible-yourself, watered-down, Protestant denominations.
 
AHA!!! See, I’m not the only one who realizes that girl altar boys were foisted on us by man-hating radicals as part of their political agenda. What really bugs me about the idea of girl altar boys is that it started as an abuse. Then, after a while, Rome approved. Communion in the hand also began as an abuse, primarily in the Scandanavian countries, before Rome caved. So, today’s liturgical abuse becomes tomorrow’s approved liturgical option.

Can’t wait til the Holy See issues that indult “allowing” hand-holding during the Our Father. :nope:
 
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bear06:
And yet, it tends to be so divisive. I really doubt you can find even one thread where people are “classifying” themselves as pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II that hasn’t digressed into a thread in which one of these groups is bashing the beloved Mass of another.
They are divisive because of the people in control, ie, Bishops who refuse to give an indult or Liturgical Commitees who “Don’t understand people like that” who don’t want a happy Catholic mass.

I’m sorry friend, people need somewhere to vent. Otherwise they lose it and walk away.
Maybe someone needs to listen to the whole debate and solve the problems (thank you Pope Benedict).
But if we constantly are Thesaurus’, dancing around what people are because it might offend them, we end up wasting more time on being politically correct than solving the problems.

Ya know, I’m Polish and short. I’m not a Certain Ethnic, verically challenged person.
 
Dr. Bombay:
AHA!!! See, I’m not the only one who realizes that girl altar boys were foisted on us by man-hating radicals as part of their political agenda. What really bugs me about the idea of girl altar boys is that it started as an abuse. Then, after a while, Rome approved. Communion in the hand also began as an abuse, primarily in the Scandanavian countries, before Rome caved. So, today’s liturgical abuse becomes tomorrow’s approved liturgical option.

Can’t wait til the Holy See issues that indult “allowing” hand-holding during the Our Father. :nope:
And this, My Friends is exactly why I get flipped out about the Hand Holding/Orans Issue!!!
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
They are divisive because of the people in control, ie, Bishops who refuse to give an indult or Liturgical Commitees who “Don’t understand people like that” who don’t want a happy Catholic mass.

I’m sorry friend, people need somewhere to vent. Otherwise they lose it and walk away.
Maybe someone needs to listen to the whole debate and solve the problems (thank you Pope Benedict).
But if we constantly are Thesaurus’, dancing around what people are because it might offend them, we end up wasting more time on being politically correct than solving the problems.

Ya know, I’m Polish and short. I’m not a Certain Ethnic, verically challenged person.
Hey, I never said that people couldn’t debate. It’s one of my favorite hobbies. I only thing it’s extremely sad that we can’t just consider ourselves Catholic instead of hyphenated this or that.

Have you read that Theodore Roosevelt speech? It’s very logical about where hyphenation leads us in America. You can draw similar lines with the Church except for the comparison stops at full destruction.
 
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