A
ajpirc
Guest
How many Catholic traditions did the Second Vatican Council take away? What were they? Why were they taken away?
- Status
G
GloriousOrder
Guest
Well, it’s difficult to speak of any Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church taking away and traditions, given that our very faith is based on the trivium of Tradition, Magisterium, and Scripture! 
We might say that the tradition of having the entire Mass in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew was “taken away”, given that vernacular was allowed. The actual liturgical constitution of the Council does not subtract specific traditions, but gives suggestions.
We might say that the tradition of having the entire Mass in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew was “taken away”, given that vernacular was allowed. The actual liturgical constitution of the Council does not subtract specific traditions, but gives suggestions.
A
ajpirc
Guest
I mean traditions like no meat on any Fridays of the year or any day during Lent and disciplinary traditions that kept us Catholics in line. Today, Catholics complain about doing this and doing that mostly because the Church doesn’t discipline us anymore.
S
Stylites
Guest
The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market place idle. And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just. And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner. But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle? They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard.
And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny. And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good? So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.
-Matthew 20-1-16
And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny. And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good? So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.
-Matthew 20-1-16
J
jonpd
Guest
Vatican 2 did not really remove traditions, what it did was in some cases make them optional or modify them such as not eating meat on Friday which may now be replaced by a different penance. The use of Latin was never removed, it’s that parishes were given the option of using the vernacular. In some cases V2 was silent about certain traditions such as devotions (rosary, benediction, etc.) but in the “spirit of Vatican 2” they were downplayed due to the desire to appear more “up to date” and less “medieval” 
For example, the use of Latin, it is interesting to go read what V2 documents such as Sacrosanctum Concilium say about this. Their intent was actually to preserve use of Latin and allow vernacular for things such as readings, etc. We see how that turned out.
*54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
**Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. **
*
For example, the use of Latin, it is interesting to go read what V2 documents such as Sacrosanctum Concilium say about this. Their intent was actually to preserve use of Latin and allow vernacular for things such as readings, etc. We see how that turned out.
*54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
**Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. **
*
A
ajpirc
Guest
So would it be safe to say that Vatican II tried to make the Church more of a democratic institution by giving the lay people more of a choice to what they want to do rather than what the Church thinks is best for you?Vatican 2 did not really remove traditions, what it did was in some cases make them optional or modify them such as not eating meat on Friday which may now be replaced by a different penance. The use of Latin was never removed, it’s that parishes were given the option of using the vernacular. In some cases V2 was silent about certain traditions such as devotions (rosary, benediction, etc.) but in the “spirit of Vatican 2” they were downplayed due to the desire to appear more “up to date” and less “medieval”
Why do we have to make the Church look up-to-date? Vatican II was probably under the impression that most countries of that day were democratic and so it had to make the Church more of what the lay wanted. In my opinion, I would rather have a medieval hierarchy than an up-to-date democracy in the Church.
J
jpjd
Guest
You seem to be trying to fit the Church into either/or categories of your own contruct: either modern-lay-choice or medeival-what-the-Church-thinks-best. The Church can not be so neatly put into boxes like that. And thinking of the Church in that either/or way is adversarial.
The Church has been, is, and will continue to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Have you actually read the documents of Vatican II? I think you will see the Holy Spirit at work in the documents.
A
ajpirc
Guest
I don’t quite understand what you’re saying. Could you clarify?
L
laszlo
Guest
For Catholics the council IS the living tradition, it defines the tradition.
A
ajpirc
Guest
Then why was the practicing of hundreds of years old traditions stopped after the Council took place? I’d think that if the Council was the living tradition then it would try to reinforce our traditions instead of suppress them.
C
CB_Catholic
Guest
The traditions you refer to are disciplines, not Sacred Tradition. They can and sometimes do change over the course of a 2000 year old history. There have been other customs and disciplines in the Church that were practiced once that we no longer practice, and were not practiced for many years before Vatican II. Things are never static and never will be.
It seems to me that while discipline is good, some disciplines are better if one practices ithem out of one’s heart and free will, rather than being imposed on us. We are adults, not children. Our faith is to be childlike, not childish. That is the reasoning behind the changing of some of the disciplines. People need to mature in their spiritual life, rather than always be told what to do and then doing it automatically or half-heatedly where it really has little to no meaning. It’s not trying to make the Church a democracy (which it isn’t), it’s about people doing things out of love of God.
A
ajpirc
Guest
I disagree. We are children, children of our Mother, the Church. How is a child suppose to learn discipline without a parent teaching it to them? If we are adults and not children, then we could probably be taking care of ourselves and teaching ourselves without the Church.
We are moving more and more toward a Protestant denomination when we have the attitude of “I don’t need the Church, I can do it myself.” This attitude has gotten into our discipline and pretty soon we’re going to be saying that we don’t need the Church for teaching or giving us sacraments. We will be saying, like you said earlier, “I will be interpreting the Bible out of the good of my heart” or “If God see’s the good in my heart as I try to give myself the sacraments, he’ll give me the grace.” We ARE children! We NEED the Church to teach us discipline. Without being taught discipline by the Church, how will our heart know how to discipline us?
C
Cristiano
Guest
Why don’t you study the documents of the Church before making ignorant assumptions. The CCL of 1983 is well before VII and it still call for Friday’s of abstinence during the year. It looks like you are looking for a fistfight without even knowing who might have insulted you or even if anyone insulted you. It is a poor Catholic behavior to go around making such accusations, it is gossip and detraction and they go against one the the ten commandments.
A
ajpirc
Guest
Ok thanks. I love being judged by other people, especially when they don’t have the guts to judge themselves. Didn’t Christ say something about taking the splinter out of your own eye before you take out the splinter in someone else’s? I don’t know. I’ll just assume that he did.
C
Cristiano
Guest
This is not your first post condemning VII. You started before without having a clue of the history and contents of the different catechisms in order to criticize the changes in belief due to VII. First do your homework then come here with references and argue about specifics. As I said before there are plenty of aberrations that are being brought into the Church, but they have to be addressed with specifics. Again I do not judge you but I judge the content of your statements because they are derogatory toward the Church.
A
ajpirc
Guest
Ok, I understand what you’re saying. I’m very sorry about what I said. I’ll do my homework next time. Please forgive me.
C
Cristiano
Guest
I think that you have very good intentions in protecting what is good. The risk is to rush and to throw the baby away with the water. You are showing a sincere interest in what is good about different aspects of the Church and you should not desist from doing that. It is the new generations like yours that will maintain the orthodoxy and evangelize people. My main point is that first we need to learn to walk before we can run. I am afraid that a lot of young people might swing too much in one direction when the Pope invited us to avoid using labels among Catholics. The Church asks us to use reason in whatever we do and thus we should avoid anything new or anything old just out of a knee jerk reaction. I am not trying to discourage you from traditions, because I find them essential for our spiritual growth. I am simply asking you to use reason,and when in doubt stick to the magisterium. You are walking on a difficult path but the right one (Jn. 14:6). Just stay on it and remember that the dangers do not come from only one side.Ok, I understand what you’re saying. I’m very sorry about what I said. I’ll do my homework next time. Please forgive me.
BTW you have not offended me and so you do not need my forgiveness. I have been young and hard headed, you are much more humble than I was at your age.
- Status