How many will be saved?

[MidnightSun12]

This has been debunked on CAF a number of times now, but there will come a poster like yourself to spread an unverifiable vision from an “unknown ARCH-deacon” who is not even a priest, who has not been canonized, nor whose vision has been held up by the Church to be authentic. It is all hearsay. One part says he appeared to his bishop, yet he addresses him as “Monsignor.” This is absolute nonsense. There is no way to substantiate that vision as being truthful and sent by God.

There are about 50+ quotes from various Saints that further support the point made in that quote. To quote St. Thomas Aquinas: “a select few will be saved”.

Deny the words of the Saints at your own risk.

 

[Ron_Conte]

144,000 give or take

the Book of Revelation speaks of the 144,000 who are given some special gift by God. But then the text discloses that a great crowd, which no one could number, are also saved.

[bibledrb]Revelation 7:9[/bibledrb]

So the text about 144,000 (a symbolic number) can’t be used to support the idea that few are saved.

 

[Sirach2]

Ron,
Knowing fhansen’s personality, I believe he was joking. It was a funny bit of irony in response to those who try to put numbers on those who are saved.

Your reference to Rev. 7:9 is a very good scriptural proof. I would add the numbers quoted to Abraham that say his decendants are like the sands of the sea. Can we imagine how great that number is when it is impossible to count each speck in a whole cup of sand, let alone a seashore?

 

[Sirach2]

There are about 50+ quotes from various Saints that further support the point made in that quote. To quote St. Thomas Aquinas: “a select few will be saved”.

Deny the words of the Saints at your own risk.

The problem is that they made these comments while they were alive, perhaps in isolated letters, or verbal communication. When they were canonized, people wrongly assumed their words suddenly became infallible. They are not, of course, but they may have been their personal reflections just like yours are here before you are canonized. It is most likely a far different story when we get to heaven and see the reality.

Suppose you die and are canonized, and someone from CAF remembers that you think only a few will be saved. Will that make it true because you said it now?

We must never trust these unprovable comments as gospel just because a saint said them. I don’t think the Church has ever pronounced upon this, and that is where we must place our fidelity to truth.

Shin, the one who posted the sayings, may have pulled these isolated comments into a list in order to prove his point. There is no way to be certain a saint said what he claims, for there is no source given. I am a Carmelite and have read several of St. John of the Cross’s works, and never saw the statement alleged by Shin. {He was at the top of the list] Etc. We only have the word of a traditionalist who would like us all to believe that very few go to heaven. What a despoiler of hope!

Two years ago, I had a lengthly debate with Shin over the St. Leonard quote (5 out of 30,000). Yet he continues to post this unreliable, unsubstantiated material, despite the fact that it is not approved by the Church. Go figure?

 

[steve_b]

We need to be careful not to destroy the hope (a theological virtue) of anyone by browbeating them with the horrors of hell, rather than incline them to love of God and virtuous living. Does fear have the impetus for goodness? Never!

That’s true. It seems to me, today there is an absence of fear, because teaching has gone the other way, where no consequences are talked about. That’s a greater problem IMV. We shouldn’t ignore the fact of hell, or that Jesus talked more about hell than anyone.
S:

The gospel (GOOD NEWS!) was not brought to the multitudes by the apostles and missionary saints by such a method, and it should not be something we should embrace either.

Good news wouldn’t be good news unless there was also bad news. That’s why the following was taught

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being *self-condemned. *
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that *no *fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), *has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. *
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, *will not inherit heaven *
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10* no* sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Today,

• it seems all this teaching is avoided, because heaven forbid, we don’t want to upset anyone’s peace of mind who is in these sins or use it to discourage one falling into these sins.
• it seems that if one is in these sins, they don’t feel it’s a big deal because hell is not talked about anymore. And certainly a loving God would not send THEM to hell for fornication, adultery etc etc etc. Obviously these sins ARE a big deal. If one dies in these sins, by definition it’s bad news for them.

S:

I saw on EWTN this week a brief clip noting that the Divine Mercy sisters spend 24-hour adoration praying for the dying. ***Each Hail Mary we pray ***also asks Mary to pray for us [plural] “sinners” at the hour of our death. We never know the vast effect of such prayers, even though, as St. Faustina wrote, there is no outward evidence in these sous when they pass.

True.

 

[Sirach2]

Steve, I don’t have any problem with your quotes, and it is true that these sins will cause one to lose heaven. Try to keep in mind the pagan society that St. Paul was delivering this message to. His was a mission to gentiles, pagans, people without a shred of faith or knowledge of God and virtuous living. Naturally, his words were absolutely essential to bring them out of debauchery.

That is not really the situation today. We are a christian nation with full media at our fingertips. Hardly a soul exists that does not know these things are damnable. Yet evil ravages society, not for lack of knowledge, but for willful indulgence despite knowing the truth. Many just don’t care, and prefer their own selfish wills. How do we reach them? Not by fear of hell, for they already know the consequences and ignore them.

What I am upset about is for scrupulous souls who find sin in every corner to come across this type of thread. It is just enough to send them into despair, thinking they haven’t got a snowball’s chance to make it, since they find sin in every tiny detail. Surely, there is a better way to evangelize.

When I converted, it was not from a fear of hell, though I knew full well that my sins deserved it. No, it was finding Christ Jesus, and discovering His absolute love for me, that put me into such love and gratitude that I never wanted to offend Him ever again. I longed for holy communion, and never missed a Sunday to receive Him after my reversion. LOVE, alone, was my draw. May it be true for the rest of mankind.

 

[Sirach2]

Ron Conte, you did not respond that you are the person who owns Catholic Planet. Usually, silence is indicative of yes. If you don’t want to acknowledge publicly, could you PM me?

 

[Sirach2]

Doesn’t our faith move us to the Church’s teachings so we can understand God’s truth? Has anyone read a single document that …

• Identifies the number of saved, whether few or many?
• Exhorts bishops/clergy to evangelize using concepts about hell?
• Validates the words/visions of saints to require belief that few are saved?

On the contrary, Pope Benedict in 2007 approved and ordered this document for publication. It is an important statement showing the authentic manner of evangelization.
2. The term evangelization has a very rich meaning. …] In any case, to evangelize does not mean simply to teach a doctrine, but to proclaim Jesus Christ by one’s words and actions, that is, to make oneself an instrument of his presence and action in the world.

1. “This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3).

As in any other field of human activity, so too in dialogue on religious matters, sin can enter in. It may sometimes happen that such a dialogue is not guided by its natural purpose, but gives way instead to deception, selfish motives or arrogance, thus failing in respect for the dignity and religious freedom of the partners in dialogue. For this reason, “the Church severely prohibits forcing people to embrace the faith or leading or enticing them by improper techniques;
[Let’s include those who preach using words of hell-fire and damnation.]
by the same token, she also strongly defends the right that no one be deterred from the faith by deplorable ill treatment”.

The primary motive of evangelization is the love of Christ for the eternal salvation of all. "From the very origins of the Church, the disciples of Christ strove to convert men to faith in Christ the Lord; not, however, through coercion or tactics unworthy of the Gospel, but above all by the power of the word of God".

Love impels the followers of Christ to proclaim to all the truth which saves". Such love is the sign of the authentic presence of the Holy Spirit who, as the principal agent of evangelization, never ceases to move people’s hearts when they hear the Gospel, by opening them to receive it. It is a love which lives in the heart of the Church and from there, as burning charity, radiates out to the ends of the earth, as far as the heart of every human being.

The entire heart of man awaits the encounter with Jesus Christ.

 

[Shannon9791]

Ron Conte, you did not respond that you are the person who owns Catholic Planet. Usually, silence is indicative of yes. If you don’t want to acknowledge publicly, could you PM me?

I’m not Ron, so I won’t answer for him, but I do believe it is the same person who owns Catholic Planet. My question, though, is why should that matter?

 

[paul_c]

I think this question can most adequately be answered in context of true Catholic teaching:

To enter heaven, you must be in the state of Grace at death

To enter the state of Grace, you normally need to be validly baptized, although the Church teaches that there are exceptions:

• invincible ignorance (for those souls who led moral lives without hearing of the need to be baptized
• baptism of desire (for catechumens who die prior to being baptized)
• baptism of blood (for martyrs who die for the faith without being water baptized)
  (and of course the Church recognizes that God is not restricted by his sacraments)
  → This factor would certainly limit those in heaven

Once baptized, To stay in the state of grace, you must love God and Neighbor and avoid mortal sin. If you do commit mortal sin, you can be reconciled if you partake of the sacrament of reconciliation. But if you fail to do so, you will be condemned
Clearly this is another limiting factor in terms of salvation since the majority of baptized Catholics regularly commit mortal sin by missing mass and never reconcile sacramentally.
And of course, most other non-Catholic Christians don’t even recognize the need for sacramental confession and lose out on its restorative value.

Staying in the state of grace is a choice to love and partake of the sacraments and God in his mercy will accept you back through reconciliation right to the moment of your death. We should all be working to get as many people as possible to recognize this sure and simple path to salvation. But alas, it is clear that in this day and age that the majority reject this teaching and will ultimately pay the consequences. We contribute to this problem when we allow people to think that they can be saved without the benefit of the sacraments that were put in place for exactly that reason.

 

[Randy_Carson]

A chilling read, but I guarantee that this page of quotes will do nothing except make you into a better Catholic.

Here is one of the most powerful quotes that I have ever read on this subject that I believe every Catholic must read and meditate on:

“The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer … relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, 'Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, thirty-three thousand people also died. Out of this number, Bernard and myself went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell.’”

-St. Leonard of Port Maurice (source: olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml )

Isn’t this how we are supposed to approach our salvation? I mean, we’re dealing with eternity here… this life’s our only chance to get to heaven and we don’t get another kick at the can if we end up in hell. What these quotes teach us is that we truly must strive for 100% perfection in how we live our lives. I mean, who goes into an exam room only planning to answer 80% of the questions?? Why then do so many of us choose to live our lives this way?

Hmmm…

33,000/hour x 24 hours = 792,000 people dying per day
792,000/day x 365 days/year = 289,000,000 people dying per year

At this rate, roughly 1 billion people would die every 3.5 years.

Since the population of the entire world did not reach 1 billion until 1800 or so, it does not seem plausible that 33,000 would die at the same hour as St. Vincent Ferrer.

 

[Sirach2]

To enter heaven, you must be in the state of Grace at death
Agree.

Once baptized, To stay in the state of grace, you must love God and Neighbor and avoid mortal sin. If you do commit mortal sin, you can be reconciled if you partake of the sacrament of reconciliation. But if you fail to do so, you will be condemned
Clearly this is another limiting factor in terms of salvation since [the majority of baptized Catholics regularly commit mortal sin] by missing mass and never reconcile sacramentally.
Disagree, where is your proof of “majority?”

And of course, most other non-Catholic Christians don’t even recognize the need for sacramental confession and lose out on its restorative value.
Disagree. God is not bound by the sacraments. “A humble, contrite heart, O God, thou will not despise.” [Ps. 51:17] We ought not to presume on the grace of final penitence, however.

We contribute to this problem when [we allow people to think that they can be saved without the benefit of the sacraments] that were put in place for exactly that reason.
Disagree. Who are the “we” in this statement? That may be true of a few who misunderstand the Church’s teaching, but I doubt it is a prevalent situation.

 

[steve_b]

Steve, I don’t have any problem with your quotes, and it is true that these sins will cause one to lose heaven. Try to keep in mind the pagan society that St. Paul was delivering this message to. His was a mission to gentiles, pagans, people without a shred of faith or knowledge of God and virtuous living. Naturally, his words were absolutely essential to bring them out of debauchery.

Sirach, Paul was addressing the Church in all those locations. Paul’s audience already had faith, and he was making sure they fly right, not crash and burn. All people, not just some, need to hear the whole story, not just the good part. That there are ALSO grave consequences to the life style he mentions.
S:

That is not really the situation today.

I beg to differ
S:

We are a christian nation with full media at our fingertips. Hardly a soul exists that does not know these things are damnable.

baptism qualifies one to be called Christian, but as we know, Christians still need to live a Christian life and that’s not happening in this country…

For example

• We’re told, ~25% of Catholics go to mass faithfully every Sunday which means ~75% don’t. That’s a huge number of “Catholics” walking around in mortal sin. No one knows the day or the moment of their death. We just know death is inevitable, it’s 1 for 1. And one who dies in mortal sin won’t go to heaven.
• A majority of Catholics didn’t vote pro life in the last 2 elections. They had a choice between a pro life candidate and a pro abort candidate both times and 51% voted for the pro abort candidate and all that vote means. which means
• they voted for abortion at any stage of development
• they voted for no born alive infant protection on botched abortions
• they voted for $500 million/yr of taxpayer dollars going to Mexico for their abortion industry
• they voted for relentless attacks on Religious institutions like the Catholic Church to provide in their hospitals and insurance policies, abortiions, abortifacient drugs
• etc etc etc

That’s clearly voting against what the Church teaches, and in turn they participate in all these horrible acts.
S:

Yet evil ravages society, not for lack of knowledge, but for willful indulgence despite knowing the truth. Many just don’t care, and prefer their own selfish wills

True. That’s why I previously said, there is no fear of God. That brings all sorts of bad consequences by itself.
S:

How do we reach them? Not by fear of hell, for they already know the consequences and ignore them.

It’s not either/or. Jesus warned people about Hell because it needed to be taught. Re: all those passages I quoted from Paul, because the HS inspired Paul to write that, it means that’s what Jesus taught. John 14:26

The topic is, “how many will be saved”. That we don’t know. But God told us, who won’t be inheriting heaven if they die in certain sins. Therefore those passages are important to know, and be reminded of, because it’s what Jesus taught.
S:

What I am upset about is for scrupulous souls who find sin in every corner to come across this type of thread. It is just enough to send them into despair, thinking they haven’t got a snowball’s chance to make it, since they find sin in every tiny detail. Surely, there is a better way to evangelize.

I doubt scrupulosity is the problem here.

What’s upsetting is, ~75% of Catholics not living as Catholics, ignoring the height and summit of our faith, the Eucharist.
S:

When I converted, it was not from a fear of hell, though I knew full well that my sins deserved it. No, it was finding Christ Jesus, and discovering His absolute love for me, that put me into such love and gratitude that I never wanted to offend Him ever again. I longed for holy communion, and never missed a Sunday to receive Him after my reversion. LOVE, alone, was my draw. May it be true for the rest of mankind.

very good. All I’m saying, let’s not lose sight of the one who IS love, also taught, that if one truly loves Him they will keep His commandments, …all of them, and He taught us what happens if one doesn’t obey those commandments and dies in that state. That’s all I’m pointing to.

My premise began with, many have no fear of God. For whatever reason, that’s not okay.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom [Prov 1:7, 9:10, & Ps 111:10]

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach, Paul was addressing the Church in all those locations. Paul’s audience already had faith, and he was making sure they fly right, not crash and burn. All people, not just some, need to hear the whole story, not just the good part. That there are ALSO grave consequences to the life style he mentions.

It is true that he addressed the converts in many locations where he or others had ministered, bringing the faith. As new converts among pagan societies yet unconverted, it was a heavy concern to keep them on the straight and narrow. Why are you assuming these towns were overflowing with converts? Church history will disprove your theory if you have studied it.

As for the rest of your response, no comment. I’m just not in the frame of mind to debate any more on this issue. :bowdown2: I cede your right to hold your opinion, and you already heard mine. Amen.

 

[paul_c]

paul c;10128587:

To enter heaven, you must be in the state of Grace at death
Agree.

good

Once baptized, To stay in the state of grace, you must love God and Neighbor and avoid mortal sin. If you do commit mortal sin, you can be reconciled if you partake of the sacrament of reconciliation. But if you fail to do so, you will be condemned
Clearly this is another limiting factor in terms of salvation since [the majority of baptized Catholics regularly commit mortal sin] by missing mass and never reconcile sacramentally.
Disagree, where is your proof of “majority?”

CARA reports that only 24% of US Catholics go to mass at least weekly and in France the number is 8%. 45% of Catholics never go to confession. cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

And of course, most other non-Catholic Christians don’t even recognize the need for sacramental confession and lose out on its restorative value.
Disagree. God is not bound by the sacraments. “A humble, contrite heart, O God, thou will not despise.” [Ps. 51:17] We ought not to presume on the grace of final penitence, however.

What are you disagreeing with? My statement was that most non-Catholic Christians don’t recognize the need for sacramental confession. I think this is obviously factual.
If you are disagreeing with the need for sacramental confession yourself, then you put yourself at odds with the Church. If you are making the argument for perfect contrition, then recognize that this situation is exceptional and should not be considered the norm.

We contribute to this problem when [we allow people to think that they can be saved without the benefit of the sacraments] that were put in place for exactly that reason.
Disagree. Who are the “we” in this statement? That may be true of a few who misunderstand the Church’s teaching, but I doubt it is a prevalent situation.

The “we” would be anyone who misleads someone into thinking that the sacraments aren’t necessary for salvation, thus dissuading them from getting the necessary graces. And are you really of the belief that there aren’t many people outside the church and even within it that actively peddle the fact that if you are a “good” person, or even have simply claimed the divinity of Christ, that you will go to heaven irrespective of the sacraments? From page 62 of the Cara report attached above:
–>A majority of Catholics of all levels of Mass attendance agree at least “somewhat” that
they can be a good Catholic without celebrating the sacrament of Reconciliation at least once a year.
–>Catholics attending Mass less than weekly are generally less likely than weekly attenders to be in agreement with Church teachings regarding the sacrament of Reconciliation. This is especially the case for those attending Mass a few times a year or less often.

 

[Sirach2]

What are you disagreeing with? My statement was that most non-Catholic Christians don’t recognize the need for sacramental confession. I think this is obviously factual.
If you are disagreeing with the need for sacramental confession yourself, then you put yourself at odds with the Church. If you are making the argument for perfect contrition, then recognize that this situation is exceptional and should not be considered the norm.

Agree, and I mentioned this at the end of my comment, that one should never presume upon final penitence (perfect contrition). Actually, other christians do not even have a sacrament of confession, so they are dependent on the grace of a contrite heart I mentioned in the Psalm, as was St. Dismas.

And are you really of the belief that there aren’t many people outside the church and even within it that actively peddle the fact that if you are a “good” person, or even have simply claimed the divinity of Christ, that you will go to heaven irrespective of the sacraments? From page 62 of the Cara report attached above:

I’ve seen informed articles that say Cara is not reliable, so that is not going to carry much weight with me. Polls and statistics need to state where the polling took place, the age groups chosen, and how widely the representation was across the states. It doesn’t.

 

[Shin]

Hmmm…

33,000/hour x 24 hours = 792,000 people dying per day
792,000/day x 365 days/year = 289,000,000 people dying per year

I wasn’t certain this was something to even reply to…

Besides numerous other problems with such an approach that should be obvious beforehand and so prevent such a statement being made, that’s not how to measure hours before the common use of clocks with minutes.

They weren’t sixty minutes each hour back then, each hour of the day was a different length depending on the season of the year, and the location of the person.

 

[steve_b]

It is true that he addressed the converts in many locations where he or others had ministered, bringing the faith. As new converts among pagan societies yet unconverted, it was a heavy concern to keep them on the straight and narrow. Why are you assuming these towns were overflowing with converts? Church history will disprove your theory if you have studied it.

I wasn’t advancing any theory.

When you responded to me as follows

“Try to keep in mind the pagan society that St. Paul was delivering this message to. His was a mission to gentiles, pagans, people without a shred of faith or knowledge of God and virtuous living”.

My response back to you was meant to show, Paul’s letters were sent to the Church in those locations, not sent to pagans, but people of faith.

 

[Zosimus41]

Fr. Barron thinks that very few go to Hell.

Michael Voris says that very few go to Heaven, and “the vast majority of people to go Hell”.

Ralph Martin has an intermediate opinion, many go to Hell but most are saved.

Monsignor Charles Pope agrees with Martin and disagrees with Fr. Barron.
blog.adw.org/2012/12/hurts-and-hopes-regarding-the-recent-debates-on-hell/

My opinion is that many souls die unrepentant from actual mortal sin, and are sent to Hell. The majority of persons die in a state of grace and go to Heaven by way of Purgatory. Very few persons die and go straight to Heaven.

I think that in over all humanity the number of people from start to finish in comparison most will go to hell. Matthew 7:13

The path to hell is paved with good intentions Saint Bernard of Clairvaux who wrote, “L’enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs” (hell is full of good wishes and desires).

You can go to mass and witness for yourself its full of self serving people. Thunderous applause,extra ordianry Eucharistic ministers every single mass, folks throwing out the orans posture having NO idea what it is or why they do it, alter girls, no alter rails.Confused EOEM just try taking communion on the tongue instead of in your hand seems to throw them for a loop…etc

The bible states if your luke warm God will spit you out. There is only one other option if God doesnt want you and it aint pretty.

Too many folks use Jesus as a get out of hell free card.

I suggest reading what Paul wrote (an enemy if you will of the liberal and feminist ideas) He was a tell it like it is type of guy.No sugar coating.

Paul wasnt even sure of his salvation are we to be so self-assured? I am sure many will have a rude awaking.

 

[Sirach2]

When you responded to me as follows

“Try to keep in mind the pagan society that St. Paul was delivering this message to. His was a mission to gentiles, pagans, people without a shred of faith or knowledge of God and virtuous living”.

My response back to you was meant to show, Paul’s letters were sent to the Church in those locations, not sent to pagans, but people of faith.

I see that I worded it incompletely. What I meant to say was that St. Paul had a number of converts living among gentiles and pagans, having barely been converted from that lifestyle. It would be so easy for them to revert back, so he kept vigilance over them, and even told them to disassociate themselves from brothers who indulged in pagan practices. Some of us today would not fall under such a strict ban from associating with sinners, but in those days, it was necessary. They were brand new baby converts amidst a pagan society.