How many works?

[Elzee]

I don’t understand the mice part…?

 

[wcknight]

Ignatius:

The question is based on a false premise. Tell here so. It is not a “quantity”, it is a quality. We must put on Christ. Ask to read James 2:20 in the KJV.

There is no James in the KJV. That is one of the books prots chose to leave out.

wc

 

[wcknight]

Elzee:

…: As long as we don’t commit a deadly sin after we are baptized (the word ‘deadly’ is used in John so I use that instead of ‘mortal’ with her), we will go to heaven.

We are NOT working our way towards salvation as no amount of works will get us there. In that the protestants are correct. BUT we have to perform good works and have faith also, because it is God’s commandment that we love both God and our neighbors, and we show and have proof of that love by doing good deeds…sort of like the Boy Scouts -practice random acts of kindness

It is the love of God shown in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus that save us, and it is our response in love shown in our good works that shows that we have accepted God’s grace.

We can still go to Heaven if we happen to commit a deadly sin. We may have to spend quite some time in Purgatory, but if we are truly sorry and make reparations, we may still get to Heaven eventually.

BTW the good work of the thief on Calvary, was his acknowledgement that Jesus was God, and that Jesus did not merit suffering and death. Plus he admitted his guilt and accepted his own death. It was an act of kindness to rebuke the other thief in defending the rightgeousness of the Lord.

wc

 

[Elzee]

ServusChristi:

When you do good works through grace your righteousness increases. Your heavenly reward becomes greater. Jesus speaks of this as building up treasure in heaven.

Can you tell me where in the bible Jesus says this? Thank you!

 

[ServusChristi]

The following passages demonstrate that God judges men according to their works and rewards or punishes them accordingly.

Proverbs 11:18 A wicked man earns deceptive wages, but one who sows righteousness gets a sure reward.

Proverbs 24:12 If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not requite man according to his work?

St. Matthew 6:19-20 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.”

St. Matthew 16:26-27 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.

St. Matthew 19:21Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

St. Matthew 25:34-36 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

St. Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.

St. Luke 14:13-14 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

Romans 2:6-7 For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

1 Corinthians 3:8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

Colossians 3:23-24 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.

Apocalypse 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

Apocalypse 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.”

 

[ServusChristi]

The idea of building up treasure in heaven makes little sense in the Protestant construct of salvation. The increase of reward spoken of by Jesus Christ is a result of an increase in justification. That is one reason we should always seek to grow in righteousness.

 

[Philthy]

Elzee:

I hope someone can help me answer a question from a fundamentalist friend of mine after I explained to her my understanding of our Catholic view of justification (initially justified through baptism, we ‘grow’ in justification through obedient faith, living our faith out in love, etc. therefore works play a part in our salvation because they help us grow in our justification. This is the ‘quantity’ of our justification as I think Jmmy Akin would say.)

Her question was, how do you know when you’ve done enough works to be completely justified?

Several ambiguities in the phrasing of the question:

• "How do you know" You don’t until you die and are judged - otherwise there would be no judgement, no?
• **“enough works” **No amount of works alone completes justification
• “completely justified” Again, complete justification happens after this life, at God’s discretion, based on the merits of Christ.

Elzee:

Can someone ever be completely justified before they die (aside from someone who has just been baptized or gone to confession). I didn’t know how to answer this.

You two better make sure you know what each of you means when you use these words. What is the difference, for example, between being completely justified and being in a state of grace?

Elzee:

I think her point was going to be that when the bible says we are called to ‘be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect’, that we are to realize we can’t do this and that is why we have to have the ‘righteousness of Christ’ cover us (not transform us).

And what exactly is her point? That since we can’t do it PERFECTLY we shouldn’t do it at all? Or that since we can’t do it completely that it has no effect at all? Totally illogical. You need to ask her, “How much faith we must have in order to claim that we “believe” in Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour?” Is it enough to BELIEVE THAT WE BELIEVE? Or must we walk the walk ourselves? I submit it’s the latter. " By their fruit you shall know them" Not only can we judge others by the good works they perform (see James Chapter 2) but I believe it is no different for ourselves. Judge yourself by the fruit you produce, not what you claim to believe.
Finally, look at the life of Jesus Christ. He was completely righteous and he never sinned. Did he not sin because he was righteous or vice versa? The answer is both because complete righteousness does not exist alongside sin. He couldn’t sin because of his righteousness; he had to be righteous because of his sinlessness. Failing to do a good work is sin.

Phil

 

[martino]

She thinks that as soon as your “saved” a bell is supposed to go off and you can go on telling everbody that you were saved on Jan. 15th 1987 at precisely 5:36 Pm. Like when you hit the jack pot in Vegas or something.

Why is it so important for them to know the exact moment they were saved? Would the live any differently once given this knowledge?

How superficial that view of salvation really is!!!

 

[jimmy]

Elzee:

I hope someone can help me answer a question from a fundamentalist friend of mine after I explained to her my understanding of our Catholic view of justification (initially justified through baptism, we ‘grow’ in justification through obedient faith, living our faith out in love, etc. therefore works play a part in our salvation because they help us grow in our justification. This is the ‘quantity’ of our justification as I think Jmmy Akin would say.)

Her question was, how do you know when you’ve done enough works to be completely justified? Can someone ever be completely justified before they die (aside from someone who has just been baptized or gone to confession). I didn’t know how to answer this. I think her point was going to be that when the bible says we are called to ‘be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect’, that we are to realize we can’t do this and that is why we have to have the ‘righteousness of Christ’ cover us (not transform us).

Can someone help me with the ‘how many works’ question? Thank you!!!

It does not matter how many works you have done. What matters is whether you are willing to do these works. If you are put into a situation where you have a chance to do good, you must do good. The number is meaningless because it is about becoming like Christ.

James says that faith without works is dead. Without having works, what does our faith mean? Who says we have faith if we have not showed the faith we have? You have to show your faith through works in order to be saved.

 

[Elzee]

I’ll see if I can answer some of these questions based on my understanding of her beliefs. Her beliefs seem very Baptist to me, but her church isn’t part of any denomination. It’s a ‘stand-alone’ church.

She believes in once saved always saved. The moment you believe in Jesus you are saved forever (John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 are the verses she often quotes). Tim Staples has some ‘Nuts and Bolts’ discussions on these verses that have been very helpful to my understanding of the relationship between ‘believe’ and ‘obey’, and ‘confess with your mouth’ (it’s an on-going confession, not a one-time thing), but I haven’t yet had the chance to share them with her.

The term ‘state of grace’ isn’t in her vocabulary, so that doesn’t make much sense to her, although I found a verse I really like, Galations 5:4, which talks about being severed from Christ and falling away from grace, which should both help with the OSAS aspect (you can’t be severed if you were never joined) and the ‘grace’ terminology. I don’t like verse-slinging, but unless I back up my explanations with some verses, she doesn’t take them seriously.

As far as ‘works’, she believes that if you are truly saved, good works will naturally flow, but they do not ‘secure our salvation’. (her words). I agreed - we don’t earn/secure our salvation by works. But, I also replied, based on what I learned by reading ‘Not by Faith Alone’ by Sungenis, that works don’t necessariliy automatically flow - it requires cooperation of our free will. This makes sense to me. It’s the constant battle of the spirit and the flesh (Romans 7 I believe) . I asked her what if someone was ‘saved’, lived a life that ‘showed’ it for 20 years, but then later fell into serious sin (adultery, murder), or turned to a non-Christian religion. Is this person still saved? Were they never really saved but just thought they were? She said the answer to this was complicated and would have to get back to me.

So, that’s kind of where she is coming from. I’m obviously not explaining the role of works very well to her, and the replies on this post will help me a lot. I think MY confusion comes from the fact that sometimes I hear works are required for salvation because that is how we grow in righteousness and therefore grace and therefore we are less likely to fall into mortal sin, but other times I hear works are not required for salvation - we just have to stay out of mortal sin (which to me means liviing a life that includes good works…). Then I find myself going in circles. My analytical mind gets the best of me.

 

[robert_ambrose]

Elzee:

I hope someone can help me answer a question from a fundamentalist friend of mine after I explained to her my understanding of our Catholic view of justification (initially justified through baptism, we ‘grow’ in justification through obedient faith, living our faith out in love, etc. therefore works play a part in our salvation because they help us grow in our justification. This is the ‘quantity’ of our justification as I think Jmmy Akin would say.)

Her question was, how do you know when you’ve done enough works to be completely justified? Can someone ever be completely justified before they die (aside from someone who has just been baptized or gone to confession). I didn’t know how to answer this. I think her point was going to be that when the bible says we are called to ‘be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect’, that we are to realize we can’t do this and that is why we have to have the ‘righteousness of Christ’ cover us (not transform us).

Can someone help me with the ‘how many works’ question? Thank you!!!

 

[robert_ambrose]

Elzee:

I hope someone can help me answer a question from a fundamentalist friend of mine after I explained to her my understanding of our Catholic view of justification (initially justified through baptism, we ‘grow’ in justification through obedient faith, living our faith out in love, etc. therefore works play a part in our salvation because they help us grow in our justification. This is the ‘quantity’ of our justification as I think Jmmy Akin would say.)

Her question was, how do you know when you’ve done enough works to be completely justified? Can someone ever be completely justified before they die (aside from someone who has just been baptized or gone to confession). I didn’t know how to answer this. I think her point was going to be that when the bible says we are called to ‘be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect’, that we are to realize we can’t do this and that is why we have to have the ‘righteousness of Christ’ cover us (not transform us).

Can someone help me with the ‘how many works’ question? Thank you!!!

Just read up on the beatitudes

 

[jeffreedy789]

‘Yes, it is, and be careful of the mice!’

thank you.

I don’t understand the mice part…?

we can’t TELL you the answer, but if you read everything written by douglas adams (especially the 5 books in his space trilogy), your life will be richer. oh, and you’ll know what we’re talking about.

 

[juno24]

Elzee:

I don’t understand the mice part…?

Both the # 42 and the mice are in reference to The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, by douglas adams. You have to read all of the books. I can’t tell you what it means, though, as it would spoil things for anyone who might want to read the books.

 

[Tiffse]

wcknight:

There is no James in the KJV. That is one of the books prots chose to leave out.

wc

Where did you get your information? Here is a link to an online KJV from the University of Virginia with James: etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html

I’m making cross Easter cards and I went searching for the best resurrection verses to include on them. I found these quite interesting:

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made live by the Spirit. I Peter 2:24 (yes, Peter!)

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior. Titus 3:5,6

I found many more like that.

I’ve been thinking about this for awhile. I have been trying to figure out exactly what extroardinary works we must have done to deserve God coming to earth, suffering, and dying so that we could be with him in Heaven. What does the church say prompted such a glorious and loving act? Wouldn’t it make sense that we would want to focus our attention on whatever we did to merit such an incredible reward? I want to do or be whatever the people Jesus came for at the time were doing or being – it seems like it worked out perfectly.

My guess is though, that it didn’t have anything to do with what we were doing.

 

[ServusChristi]

Tiffse,

Your understanding of Catholic soteriology is erroneous. Nowhere does the Church teach that any works merit the initial outpouring of God’s grace. No amount of works merited Christ’s sacrifice or our regeneration in His blood. This is the free gift of God.

What we are speaking of is works done in grace after initial justification. For Christians, works derive their merit from the grace through which they are done.

God bless,
Ryan

 

[Elzee]

To tag on to what Ryan says above, Titus 3:5-7 is talking about our initial justification through baptism (‘the washing of regeneration’), through which ‘we are justified by his grace so that we may become hers in hope of eternal life’. It’s a hope because we can lose our justification after baptism by rejecting God via mortal sin and not repenting. At least that is how I’ve always understood this verse to be interpreted.

 

[Malachi4U]

Elzee:

I hope someone can help me answer a question from a fundamentalist friend of mine…Her question was, how do you know when you’ve done enough works to be completely justified?..

This question from Protestants and or anti-Catholic biggots is typical of those who have been lied to or misslead on the true meaning of works and its part in our salvation.

Here is the easy answer - though anti-Catholics will still not “see” it due to the “scales” over their eyes. "F"aith is everything we believe in as Catholic Christians. Small cap "f"aith my only include one thing like believing Jesus is one person of God or that He rose from the dead. Many religions have faith in Jesus that He was a good man or became an adopted son of God or became a God or was a prophet, etc… Catholic Christians have "F"aith in Jesus and all that he said and all that He taught and all that He commanded. Our "F"aith is displayed everyday in all that we do and all that we are. We live our "F"aith every breath we take. Because we have "F"aith we perform good works out of our "F"aith. Works come from Faith like water from a waterfall. Works can not give us Faith nor can they be substituted for Faith. Without works there is also no Faith. Our Faith is proven by our works just like Jesus said when talking about the fig tree without fruit.

No works equals no Faith. Works does not make Faith.

True Faith causes us to perform good works. Good works come from true Faith.

By the way, in Protestant bibles like the NIV or KJV you will find words used like ‘doing’ or ‘does’ instead of the word ‘works’ when the verse supports true theology (i.e. Catholic theology). When the verse taken ‘out of context’ would seem to support the Protestant opinion then the word ‘works’ is used. Just a ploy the writters of the Protestant bibles use to try and include their opinions in their abridged and edited versions of Scripture. Many Protestants don’t even notice the words ‘doing’ or ‘does’ in the context of ‘works’ untill you point this deception out to them.

 

[adnauseum]

We have no assurance of salvation.

Evangelical sects think they do.

We work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

That is your answer.