How modern or how traditional is my local parish?

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Hi brothers and sisters in Christ 🙂 I’ve been going to my local parish near home since I was born, my parents before that, the church (Our Lady of Good Counsel) opened in 196(3)? But what I’m asking is…how modern is it?? A few years ago we got a new priest after having our old one for more than 10 years, and this new priest, has what people call a “speedy” mass, in the sense that, he says mass in 45 minutes or less, and has removed the ringing of the bell before the consecration, as well as other minor yet traditional parts of the mass, he says they aren’t vital and don’t need to be done, but our old priest had hour + long masses and was very traditional and very Marian, and our new priest doesn’t even live at our rectory? ( not sure if that’s what the little house near the parish is called), but has anyone else experienced this?? A lot of our parish community members always talk about the changes but I don’t think they’ve ever questioned our priest or told him. What do you think?
 
What is the point of this query?

Is one Mass form better than another?
We are not supposed to compare Mass forms on this forum.

Our Pastor didn’t live at our rectory fro a time because they were removing the asbestos from the “little house”.

Don’t presume.
And PLEASE don’t bother the priest with such nonsense,

A good book on Church history might be in order.
 
What is the point of this query?

Is one Mass form better than another?
We are not supposed to compare Mass forms on this forum.
I don’t think the OP is comparing forms like “OF vs. EF”. If I understand it correctly, it seems both priests offer the OF but with varying levels of traditional elements.
 
I don’t think the OP is comparing forms like “OF vs. EF”. If I understand it correctly, it seems both priests offer the OF but with varying levels of traditional elements.
Still, be grateful for a priest.
Many parishes are languishing without one.
 
What is the point of this query?

Is one Mass form better than another?
We are not supposed to compare Mass forms on this forum.
I think the OP is asking a sincere question and you have presumed his/her intention and become unnecessarily defensive. And the rule is one isn’t supposed to compare them qualitatively - if the OP is asking if someone is retained from the 1962 or a pre-1970’s tradition, there’s no issue in identifying that. That’s simply stating facts.

Anyway, length is not necessarily an indication of tradition or no. Speed is speed. I have heard of priests saying 15min. low masses. I’m not quite sure what a “very Marian” priest is. Pertaining to the use of a bell, because of the vaguity of the rubrics of the Novus Ordo there is a certain flexibility or exclusivity however one reads them - some read the rubrics (as they should be read) as necessary and responsible additional or local custom can be accommodated (e.g. bells during the epiclesis and institution narrative), however because they are not mandated by the rubrics they cannot be required. Another group will read rubrics (incorrectly) and say rubrics are exhaustive, i.e. if it is not in the rubrics explicitly it cannot be done (e.g. times one’s breast is struck during the confiteor, how one incenses the altar, how one holds their fingers).

In any case, I don’t think it is prudent to question your priest. You might ask him in a sincere manner (in fact, I think it is quite necessary that one can honestly and respectably speak with their pastor in a candid fashion) and then perhaps he’ll be open to hear your concerns.
 
What a troubling and pointless question. Better asked should be, how Catholic is my parish.
 
and has removed the ringing of the bell before the consecration
That’s a warning flag ought to be explored. One of my chums told of a priest that stopped using sanctus bells. When asked about it he hemmed and hawed through some unsatisfactory answers. Finally he blurted out that he stopped using bells “because nothing special happens at the consecration!”– a response that should cause every Catholic’s jaw to drop to the floor.

While that might not necessarily be the motive here, as they say, where there’s smoke there’s fire.
 
Bring your concerns to your parish council. It is typically their job to advise the Pastor.

When the parish council asks a Pastor for something that isn’t hertical, etc - they often agree and do it (not I said often and not always).

God Bless
 
I find some of the replies here more troubling than the simple question asked.

I fail to see how a yearning for reverence is troubling.

Some people simply don’t adjust well to change. It’s not a fault imo.

That said, someone must have already asked the priest about this since the op indicated he has explained the omissions in question. Really no need to take it further than that. There is no liturgical abuse indicated.

Myself, I would avoid any distraction of these minor issues and focus on a reverent participation at Mass.

And yes, pray for and be thankful for this priest’s service to Holy Mother Church.
 
I see the OP’s question as a bit wistful - he/she liked the Masses he/she was accustomed to, but is not so sure about the style of the new priest.

However, to your new priest, that is the style of Mass that he’s accustomed to! You’re lucky to have had such a long period of continuity with the same priest, by the way. However, they can’t stay forever, they must go where they are sent.

I’m guessing you’ll get used to your new priest in a little while. I’m sure he needs all your support. 🙂
 
minor yet traditional parts of the mass, he says they aren’t vital and don’t need to be done
This is one of the lamest excuses in the book. Sanctus bells do not add any time to the Mass and are no skin off anyone’s back since it’s not the priest that rings them. In the end, there is no good excuse for removing them.
 
That’s a warning flag ought to be explored. One of my chums told of a priest that stopped using sanctus bells. When asked about it he hemmed and hawed through some unsatisfactory answers. Finally he blurted out that he stopped using bells “because nothing special happens at the consecration!”– a response that should cause every Catholic’s jaw to drop to the floor.

While that might not necessarily be the motive here, as they say, where there’s smoke there’s fire.
FYI in my diocese the use of bells is a rarity. There is only one parish to my knowledge that uses them. So far I have yet to find a priest who wasn’t reverent toward the Eucharist. Occasionally I find a member of the laity that I wonder about but of course I am not a mind reader. 😉
 
FYI in my diocese the use of bells is a rarity. There is only one parish to my knowledge that uses them. ** So far I have yet to find a priest who wasn’t reverent toward the Eucharist.** Occasionally I find a member of the laity that I wonder about but of course I am not a mind reader. 😉
Ideally, wouldn’t one way to manifest that reverence be by the simple, pious, and longstanding tradition of ringing the bells at the elevation of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Our Lord?
 
I see the OP’s question as a bit wistful - he/she liked the Masses he/she was accustomed to, but is not so sure about the style of the new priest.
If the priest is to follow the rubrics, why should there be any room for a certain “style”? The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a something which the priest has the authority to offer with his own “flair” or “style”. The priest, when he goes up to the altar to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, should essentially become a “slave” to the liturgy. He leaves himself behind and truly become an *alter Christus *, performing with obedient exactitude that which the Church tells him to do in her Sacred Liturgy. Except for during the homily, the priest’s personality should disappear and there should be no difference between how he or another priest offers the Mass. The priest’s personality or particular “style” should not ever be a factor at Mass.
 
If the priest is to follow the rubrics, why should there be any room for a certain “style”? The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a something which the priest has the authority to offer with his own “flair” or “style”. The priest, when he goes up to the altar to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, should essentially become a “slave” to the liturgy. He leaves himself behind and truly become an *alter Christus *, performing with obedient exactitude that which the Church tells him to do in her Sacred Liturgy. Except for during the homily, the priest’s personality should disappear and there should be no difference between how he or another priest offers the Mass. The priest’s personality or particular “style” should not ever be a factor at Mass.
There will always be “styles” in the liturgy and there have always been “styles”. The conventual Mass of a religious community has always had a different “style” than a parish Mass, than an Episcopal Mass, etc. Even when Gregorian chant had pride of place, in there are differences in “style”. There is the Solesmes school, the Pothier school, etc. I’ve been to a fair number of abbeys in Canada and Europe that still use Gregorian chant and each has its distinct voice and style. The abbey I belong too has a free-standing altar where Mass is concelebrated with the priests in a semi-circle around it. Monte Cassino still has the old altar. For the laity, the mass is celebrated ad orientem, but for the community, it is versus populum, as the altar is between the choir and the nave, and the concelebrants are off to the side in their own pews.

A priest may have a good singing voice, and a not-so-good one and may choose to chant-or not-his parts. The celebrant(s) may have an accent. Yes, even in Latin. Listen to a recording of Gregorian chant from Germany, Italy, France, England and Spain. Each will colour the accent with a particular accent.

In the pre-Gregorian days, between roughly the 12th to the late 19th centuries, Gregorian chant slowly fell out of style and plainchant had its regional flavours, and Mass would sound very different-even in Latin-whether heard in Paris or Rome or other places. Prior to when Gregorian chant was originally composed, there were other chant forms such as Gallican, Old Roman, Mozarabic and Sarum, to name a handful. By the time of Trent, Gregorian chant was well on its decline. It wasn’t revived into widespread use until 1908 as the main form of Church music when Pius X promulgated the Vatican Edition of the Roman Gradual. There probably was more uniformity in Gregorian chant from then on but then every choir would have its own “voice” and distinctive sound, and may interpret chant depending on different schools of thought. As I said different abbeys have different sounds, even with exactly the same Gradual and exactly the same notes. It’s a distinctive characteristic of Gregorian chant.

There are also some very different styles within the Western Church, namely Ambrosian and Mozarabic in current use, the Carthusians have their distinctive liturgy and different orders have their way of doing things.

I have an old 1935 Ceremonial. In it, the introduction speaks of the development of liturgy. It says of the reforms of Pius X (translated from French): “At the same time, he happily reformed ecclesiastical chant, and added to the Rubrics of the Missal many important variations and additions, without however altering the text itself of the Missal”. (author’s italics).

It also states “Towards the end of the 17th century and during the 18th century, reactions in France and in Germany broke the liturgical unity, creating new liturgies (neo-Gallican and others). But these were abolished in the 19th century when the Roman liturgy was reestablished in all of the West”.

Churches also have had different layouts. Different art; some churches very ornate, monastic ones, very sparsely decorated. Polyphony was sometimes used instead of chant.

True the priest’s gestures were fairly uniformly prescribed. But there was plenty of room for “style”, for example if a woman’s schola replaced a men’s schola (permitted for grave reasons… one being that the church was the conventual chapel of nuns!). Moreover some priests indeed, in the pre-Conciliar days, would recite faster than others, be more intelligible than others, have more decorum than others.

The rubrics do allow for some variations (after all the Ceremonial says that Pius X added variations to the Missal), and thus it is normal to expect that some priests will favour one or another of those variations.

So I think your last comment is, with respect, an impossibility to achieve and always has been so.
 
There will always be “styles” in the liturgy and there have always been “styles”…
All I am saying is that the priest should obey the rubrics (proper to the rite of the Mass being offered, of course). When the rubrics are obeyed, the priest’s personality is negated entirely because he is not performing a subjective action, but an action prescribed by the Church. He does not have the liberty to let his own personal tastes and style come through. The Church says “read this prayer in this tone, genuflect at this moment, kiss the altar at this moment, make the Sign of the Cross here, etc.” Unless the rubrics allow for the omission or addition and the proper pastoral requirements for such are met, a Catholic should be able to expect uniformity at Masses offered according to the same rite.
 
All I am saying is that the priest should obey the rubrics (proper to the rite of the Mass being offered, of course). When the rubrics are obeyed, the priest’s personality is negated entirely because he is not performing a subjective action, but an action prescribed by the Church. He does not have the liberty to let his own personal tastes and style come through. The Church says “read this prayer in this tone, genuflect at this moment, kiss the altar at this moment, make the Sign of the Cross here, etc.” Unless the rubrics allow for the omission or addition and the proper pastoral requirements for such are met, a Catholic should be able to expect uniformity at Masses offered according to the same rite.
I can see what you’re saying, but I think the personality of the priest always comes through in the Mass. At my present church, the priest speaks very quickly, that’s how he is all the time. At my last church, the priest was a wonderful singer and often brought extra bits of music into the Mass. In Italy, the priest at my church gives extremely long homilies, every week.

That’s what I meant by “style”.
 
I can see what you’re saying, but I think the personality of the priest always comes through in the Mass. At my present church, the priest speaks very quickly, that’s how he is all the time. At my last church, the priest was a wonderful singer and often brought extra bits of music into the Mass. In Italy, the priest at my church gives extremely long homilies, every week.

That’s what I meant by “style”.
Spot on. Priests are human, the liturgy is not computer-generated. And this was just as true in pre-Conciliar days.

To me it wouldn’t be “liturgy” if the human element was taken completely out of it.
 
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