How much can you trust psychology?

[CopticChristian]

My job (and my life for that matter) has kept me in contact with many mentally ill people.

I have yet to see a psychologist that does not have a psychiatrist on hand for prescription authority.

I don’t think they could function if they couldn’t prescribe their precious “Zoloft”.

It’s worse than that though. In many cases it’s not even Psychologists that are prescribing; it’s “Therapists”, people who don’t have the schooling to be able to call themselves Psychologists; or worse, the general practitioners are doping up people left and right.

When my dad died, I took my mom first to a Psychiatrist who was cruel to her; so I took her to a Therapist who put her on several meds. She acted strangely from the start and we tried to “tweak the cocktail” for 6 weeks with the willing participation of her GP. When her behavior became alarming, I took her to a Neurologist who had a fit over the prescribed meds. He went on an hour long rant against Psychologists stating that there was no way for them to have the level of understanding of the impacts of these medications let alone the intricacies of the interactions they have with all the others.

Mind you he was not in the least opposed to medication administered properly under proper supervision; he concluded that in this world both of those states are impossible to reach. I mean, just look at Michael Jackson. Even with direct, hands-on supervision, his doctors (as I understand he went through alot of them) couldn’t get things “right”.

There is no drug; there is no thing that could ever fill the void in us that is a separation from God. Sure we can numb the pain; but for me, I’d rather just fill that void with God through prayer. That is instead of applying Band-Aids to a gaping wound, I’d rather heal it.

CopticChristian, sorry to misunderstand you. Thank you for clarifying.

Carol,

I have no love for the DSM IV and have mentioned somewhere William Glasser MD. He has a website somewhere. He has written “Choice Therapy” and fostered what is called “Reality Therapy”…I believe he would agree with you and you may find what he says consistent with Catholic thought, ie sin, free will…a la Aquinas…Glasser does not know that he is espousing Aquinas.

I suggest you look at CBT. This is short term therapy intended not to engage you with drugs and not intended to be long term…a forever and a day patient/client. It too is about choice and understanding that you are not your behavior.

I agree that the field of mental health has been guided by taking people out of institutions and graduating them to medications and the community model of frequent visits. Psychiatrists no longer do psychotherapy, since it has little value, and they do dispense meds. They also relegate the therapy to Social Workers and Nurses and technicians.

Psychologists administer tests and spend time listening and talking.

The problem with the mental health field unlike the practice of medicine in general is this. If you get pneumonia and you are treated…there is a SOAP method of analysis. Subjective, Objective, Analysis, Plan…in the plan the problem is often resolved and you having once had pneumonia can be cured and it is resolved.

In the mental health field once you are labeled with a DSM IV diagnosis then you may as well have the Scarlet Letter on your chest because forever and a day you are never cured and it is never resolved…it is a bad system…

 

[CatholicSheila]

Is this thread about psychology or psychiatry? The OP mentions diagnoising mental illnesses, and another poster talks about dolling out drugs. Both of which are done by psychiastrists, but not by psychologists. They’re linked in that both deal with the mind, but psychology and psychiatry are not interchangeable.

edit: Missed the second page as I was reading. Glad it has already been bought up.

 

[CatholicSheila]

I have yet to see a psychologist that does not have a psychiatrist on hand for prescription authority.

Mine doesn’t. I have had the same psychologist for 3 years. Psychiastrist for a bit longer. My psychiastrist might inform my psychologist if she changes my meds, but only if there is something major she wants my psychologist to know about which isn’t med related. The med changes are just an add on. My psychologist has never played any role in my medications, other than to encourage me to take them, or talk to my psychiastrist if I’m having issues with them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mine doesn’t. I have had the same psychologist for 3 years. Psychiastrist for a bit longer. My psychiastrist might inform my psychologist if she changes my meds, but only if there is something major she wants my psychologist to know about which isn’t med related. The med changes are just an add on. My psychologist has never played any role in my medications, other than to encourage me to take them, or talk to my psychiastrist if I’m having issues with them.

You lost me, I believe thats exactly what Carol was saying. They work in conjunction when need be. Maybe on-hand was simply phrased wrong, it doesn’t change the equation though.

They are one of the same, one is an advancement in study of the other. Your Psychologist can go back to school and eventually prescribe meds. Many are simply content usually.

Your psychologist may not play a role in your being on meds, however this doesn’t mean that they can’t, for example is if they come across a client who is unstable on meds. The process would then work in reverse, and often does depending on the situation. They just cannot prescibe meds.

Or if for example they encounter an individual beyond their capacity to treat do to the need for medication. So too the reverse would come into play.

Usually its a clinical “team” the end result being the selected clients in dire need, referred to psychiatry,

However, I believe what Coptic states above is very relevant today and lacking. IMHO, for many different reason’s, none good from what I see.

In other words reality therapy is lacking today, and to quickly replaced with a quick usually inaccurate diagnosis/prescription, and this puts the individual on the Hamster Wheel. Counterproductive, but not as profitable I would assume. We took a step backwards IMHO, not foward.

Which isn’t indictive of your treatment, may well be the best in the world.

 

[Sixpence]

You can trust psychologists if they can demonstrate that they know what they’re talking about, as well as the limits of their knowledge. This can be done no matter what religion- CBT, for example, was developed by atheistic anti-Christian individuals who were nevertheless most influential in helping people quite effectively. The least of these in particular.
As far as infallibility, they only have it in the sense that they have certitude. Certitude can be gained as a result of expertise, and that’s how it always tends to work. The infallibility of a bishop is not a normal thing, you know. It’s an anomaly. A convenient loophole in the natural order, if you will.

 

[CopticChristian]

You can trust psychologists if they can demonstrate that they know what they’re talking about, as well as the limits of their knowledge. This can be done no matter what religion- CBT, for example, was developed by atheistic anti-Christian individuals who were nevertheless most influential in helping people quite effectively. The least of these in particular.
As far as infallibility, they only have it in the sense that they have certitude. Certitude can be gained as a result of expertise, and that’s how it always tends to work. The infallibility of a bishop is not a normal thing, you know. It’s an anomaly. A convenient loophole in the natural order, if you will.

Six,

So what you are saying is that you must be an educated consumer. The question is how do you know what to look for? How do you know when they know what they are talking about? How do you know when they are the limits of their knowledge. Who are the athiests you speak of for CBT?

I really do not follow your logic of infallibility and certitude. You can have certitude and somehow you tie this into infalliblity and a Bishop calling it an anomaly. Can you help me out here with where your train of thought went here. I have no certitude as to what you speak about. Explain for me what a loophole in the natural order is. Take your time.

I believe a loophole in the natural order is…

Examples would be:
Let me know…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Psychology is a science, not a religion, and not all of it is related to such matters as sexuality or the subconscious.

Not all practices and theories in the field of psychology are scientific. Psychotherapy wasn’t considered a science at all until the field grew and people started using the scientific method, especially in regards to studying the brain and nervous system in relationship to human behavior, and integrating that research into the field of psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy is still part art part science. Intuition, relational knowledge, experience and even motivation are factors in how an individual therapist will treat someone.

 

[CopticChristian]

Not all practices and theories in the field of psychology are scientific. Psychotherapy wasn’t considered a science at all until the field grew and people started using the scientific method, especially in regards to studying the brain and nervous system in relationship to human behavior, and integrating that research into the field of psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy is still part art part science. Intuition, relational knowledge, experience and even motivation are factors in how an individual therapist will treat someone.

You might want to look at this book…The Death of Psychotherapy…In my experience Psychotherapy is a dying art with little science.

amazon.com/The-Death-Psychotherapy-Abductions-ebook/dp/B000QXDASA

Review
“The Death of Psychotherapy skillfully presents a badly needed message: much of therapy lacks scientific backing. In tackling the sad lack of experimental confirmation of clinical findings, Eisner is sure to become a force for change.”-Elizabeth Loftus, Ph.D. Past-President, American Psychological Society

Product Description
Psychologist-attorney Eisner puts psychotherapy on trial by critically examining its effectiveness through the lens of the scientific method. From psychoanalysis to cognitive-behavior therapy as well as the 500 or so other psychotherapies, there is not a single experimental study that supports the effectiveness of psychotherapy over a placebo or religious healing. Using both case examples and clinical research, this book challenges the conclusion that there is empirical support for the notion that psychotherapy is effective.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You might want to look at this book…The Death of Psychotherapy…In my experience Psychotherapy is a dying art with little science.

amazon.com/The-Death-Psychotherapy-Abductions-ebook/dp/B000QXDASA

Yeah, in my psych101 course we covered the psychotherapy debate, art or science. The prof. said quite frankly that it isn’t a science. It is only the use of scientific research of the brain, and applying that to human behavior, that has given psychotherapy any credence at all. It is the basis behind every medication that is prescribed by therapists. The rest is: art, and probably a dying art. Becoming much more clinical, which in some ways, is unfortunate. There something to be said for the art of understanding human behavior.

 

[onthisrock]

I get REALLY disgusted with today’s programming, so I record on my DVR “Life is Worth Living” with Bishop Fulton Sheen. He had a wonderful episode that he did that was done in the 60’s during all of the free love, and civil rights activisms going on.(I even saved it!) He stated there were two types of mental illness…one Psychosis, which is biological, and needs to obviously be treated by a doctor. Then he spoke of the neurosis…the mental illness that we (mostly Americans) brew up ourselves. It causes anxiety, self esteem issues, discontentment…basically being “bored” He goes into Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs, and that Americans don’t have to worry so much about the Physical needs, that they are so focused on those upper tear problems known as “self actualization” He is saying we make ourselves basically crazy out of boredom. Makes total sense. I personally have an actual biological mental illness. I get so hurt when people joke about “funny farms” and “rubber rooms” how we should be taken off the streets etc. However, My psychiatrist is a wonderful Catholic. I would always bump into him at pro-life rallies before I moved two hours north (since I only go every 3 months, I kept him since he’s so normal, and doesn’t have me jacked up on this that and the other…To get into psychotherapy…I have to say…If you have a specific goal, that is measurable with a care plan of action as in marriage counseling…then it could be of use. BUT Cognitive Behavioral therapy, is basically paying someone to let you vent…yet doesn’t stop your conversation when you are talking about something immoral They are big on helping gay people "come out and “feel accepted in their community”. This is their GREAT downfall…It is based in the religion of moral relativeity…what “feels” good, “is” good. CBT can go on for years and years…they NEVER cut you off, because you are their money. There is also Dialectical Behavioral Therapy( DBT) which has a specific goal, and again, a designed length in time, and a curriculum of sorts. I would say that if you are one of the people like Bishop sheen spoke of with neurosis, from your own discontent and boredom, don’t waste your money to get pat on the back for breaking your own set moral laws. However, like with marriage counseling, and DBT which have an actual game plan and is measurable, I would say that is OK…Once therapy has gone on to the point you feel as though your psychotherapist is somehow your friend…it is toast from then on…and probably always was, if the therapist allowed it. Like I said, My number one treatment is a Catholic Physician who prays for me, and tells me of religious books to read instead of pushing another pill…He’s a class act! Psychology is big business, and many don’t even take insurance. It’s quite the racket!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Everyone wants a quick fix today in this high tech world. And yes that includes your treatment for whatever this unknown manifested behavior may be.

The question becomes how do you know your being properly treated? Time becomes of essense, thus it becomes apparent, usually in your ability to first identify, then properly respond to your own feelings.

Always comes around to those “feelings”.

You see yourself correcting your own behavior, from a clinical aspect they are merely pointing out their observations of You, to You. If you follow the advice you correct the behavior quicker, if you assume they are wrong then you apply incorrect denial. This too becomes self evident but takes much longer to treat.

The “known” comes in seeing yourself grow through mature responsible change in behavior. Short-Cuts? I don’t even know what that is. Literally you need to be “observed” over a period of time. So this so-called behavior is witnessed manifesting itself thus comes the unlocked secret as to “how” it happens. Medication is “always” the very last resort not the first.

As far to what moral-ethical mode the clinic deems relevant? Well for me modern-psychology is fine when supported by “Bible”. In fact its confirmed for me what I did not see since I found myself “constantly” reverting to it. HONESTY, self-honesty oh the Bible becomes imperative in a drug free treatment plan. I just never used the word religion or Bible. I used the Biblical teachings like Honesty.

Personally now from what I’m seeing in NYC and elsewhere the Catholics are not even playing this sublime treatment today. They are outright teaching the Bible as part of treatment now. Especially with addiction. Its behavior is self-deception thus living a LIE.

What I see working is what has always worked, long-term, reality therapy, based in sound spiritual teaching. I don’t believe in “recovering” addicts etc. I believe in “resolved” issues. And yes relapse is part of recovery through never an excuse.

Look at “any” twelve step program for example? Based directly on Church teaching all twelve steps. They are nothing but a “church” replacement, thus a “support group”

Support groups can be many things, like “church” family, friends, positve social activity, health etc.

Oh it just goes on and on out here with every single issue you can bring up. Bi-Polar, sexual abuse which often leads to sexual disorientation. Trans-Gender is so common today its simply astounding. Its so rare your about as likely to hit Mega-Lotto on your first try as to see a legitimate case of this.

DSM-IV? Listen I don’t even know ya, and could talk to you for an hour and fit you somewhere in that manual. Medicated…Done Deal, Hamster Wheel.

Don’t take insurance? Listen you might want to use those “first” on a sliding pay scale. The insurance is where all the folly reside’s. Money motivated. Those who see money as simply a means to an end is where the real help resides.

Yes Bishop Sheen was a bright light who missed very little in observation.

Psychotherapy works with specific behaviors very well, in particular Anger, better termed Rage, Hostility, thus for example Sounding Boards or Encounter Groups become a valuable tool. These Gang Bangers you see, that is likely the fastest solution to resolve with them. Usually they grew in some survival of the fittest ghetto, where violence was a key tool to survival. They simply do not know how to behave or deal with their feelings. Thus they deal with anger in literally barbaric ways. Oh I’ve seen these guys scream and foam at the mouth for months on end, till they exhausted that pool of pent up hostility, walking time bombs is what they are. The facilitys to correctly deal with this today are seriously lacking, and these individuals are not treated and likely incarcerated.

I mean realistically how are you going to deal with 20 years of pent up hostility? By calmly discussing it? Medicating it? Its a real issue today. You need a combination of encounter then personal and group therapy. Groups are effective because they work through the philosophy of each other seeing there own behavior in the others, a mirror so to speak. Thus the groups run themselves, you just re-direct them when they lose focus, like Eric does with the threads.

Family and Couples issues through the dynamics of family issues is also very effective, well it could be. Some people just shouldn’t be together either.

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

I know some things in psychology are valid. I just don’t think a psych should view themselves as someone with all the knowledge and perfection. They cannot play God.
I know when you are dealing with a secular psych you can expect them not to believe in spirtual things. For example, the psych docs and nurses at the hospital say demons do not exist. I think they can be an issue, not necessarily for everyone with a mental disorder.
When I first became ill, I would hear voices inside of my head. They took opposing sides for and against Christ. Sounds like spiritual warfare to me. The docs prescribed meds that helped quiet the voices, but the opposition is definetely still there. And I worry I will never be “cured” as long as the doctors deny there are demons out there.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I know some things in psychology are valid. I just don’t think a psych should view themselves as someone with all the knowledge and perfection. They cannot play God.
I know when you are dealing with a secular psych you can expect them not to believe in spirtual things. For example, the psych docs and nurses at the hospital say demons do not exist. I think they can be an issue, not necessarily for everyone with a mental disorder.
When I first became ill, I would hear voices inside of my head. They took opposing sides for and against Christ. Sounds like spiritual warfare to me. The docs prescribed meds that helped quiet the voices, but the opposition is definetely still there. And I worry I will never be “cured” as long as the doctors deny there are demons out there.

Have you been in a psych unit at the “Catholic Hosp” for a few day evaluation in your area? Or is this all out-patient? In your area without doubt is also “Catholic Family Services” for out-patient health care. They do exist by you I assume? IMHO I would go this path if secular is a concern. Which as I suppose you see may be an issue. many in this field just think clinical. I get that.

Anyone who has been to all Catholic schools is clearly aware of this realm we live in, I assure you of this. That said many case’s as yours “usually” fall in the area of, wrong meds, no-meds, or mis-medicating by not following multiple med schedules.

May not be your issue. My prayers are with you.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.

 

[CopticChristian]

The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.

Robert,

I am going to disagree with you here. Love self. Love neighbor. There are people that do not regard themselves as worthy of love. To love yourself you must recognize your inherent value. See what love the Father has that he calls us to be children of God and so we are. To value yourself as a child of God is part of self esteem that allows you to regard others as yourself.

It depends on how you spin “self esteem”. There is nothing inherently wrong with this notion.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

And I think psychology does stress too much that a certain symptom links a person to an illness.

Bingo! That’s exactly the problem. They were taught to be “objective” and “unbiased” so the new ones especially like the darned interns in the psych ward, basically go down a checklist if if you get more than 6 checks in this column, you are schizophrenic. If you get more then 5 in that column, you are manic. It’s how they do it with lab rats. They cannot comprehend a word you say so if you ask them why they’re asking, they’ll write, “refused to answer,” and up your medication.

I have a great psychiatrist who know that only symptoms, not root causes, can be treated with medication. So he refrains from a label. If I’m manic, I get tranquilizers to sleep and maybe antipsychotics. If I’m overly anxious he gives me something that calms me down.

He looks at medicine like a cast on a leg. It only helps hold a person together; the cast, nor the psychiatric medicine, actually does the healing. (Healing is from the Holy Spirit.)

I guess what I mean is we are humans who cannot understand everything that goes on in the mind of other people. So is becoming too interested in psychology safe? Some psychiatrists believe themselves to be infallible, and is that a good thing? And where does this infalliability or wisdom come from?

I heard an excellent lecture on the infallibility of “important” psychiatrists. It’s a bunch of baloney. They just do what they can to help keep social order through control of “deviants” of behavior for a high amount of money.

The ones that are wise are the ones who listen and respond to your questions. The ones who don’t mind explaining why they’re giving you this medicine and not that, and how to know if something is wrong and we need to call him. Our psychiatrist is available for emergencies, though we never abuse it, by pager service. He will call us back in two minutes on a Sunday afternoon and based on what we tell him, he will give us instructions what to take tonight and when to come into his office or even call a prescription out for us.

I don’t know how many of those kind of psychiatrists there are, that are accepting new patients.

Alan

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert,

I am going to disagree with you here. Love self. Love neighbor. There are people that do not regard themselves as worthy of love. To love yourself you must recognize your inherent value. See what love the Father has that he calls us to be children of God and so we are. To value yourself as a child of God is part of self esteem that allows you to regard others as yourself.

It depends on how you spin “self esteem”. There is nothing inherently wrong with this notion.

You sound indoctrinated by psychologists who say that self-esteem is good. It isn’t.

Another example, look at how many times love is mentioned in psychology and compare that to the amount of LOVE in the NT. Follow Love and you will see that short-comings characteristic in psychology. Don’t trust anything in the media that lacks LOVE.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.

I’ll have to disagree Robert. Not sure how you conclude this. Why in the world would someone want to twist truth to a lie, who is actually trying to help you? In fact as I described above its exactly opposite. Is this the opinion of an extravert?

Self Esteem is what our unconscious believes to be true about how worthy, lovable, valuable, capable we are…simply worded. Course from there its a deep sea diving class.

The question is HOW did you get to the point of sitting in a clinic regardless of high or low self esteem. How does one arrive at that point. Well,some are rescued, others realize something just isn’t right, but can’t pin it down. Others reluctant participants in there own well being, for whatever reason, court pressure etc.

Image may well play a factor simply because you may really believe you actually are the image you created and look at daily in the mirror. In other words your living a lie, and I do agree you probly will not want to hear the truth. I’m sure most of the Hells Angels MC really believe they “are” that image for example. They have me convinced anyway. But are they?

We are talking the apparent result of a total emotional and motivational state in the present moment, which is a result of individual feelings dealt with in a productive manner moment by moment, or not, thought by throught. However you surpassed the first steps and have the process in reverse.

What Self Esteem did Jesus have for example? A King taking on the presence of a Servant, how did he behave? He didn’t say, come on guys the drinks are me tonight because I’m king? Lets head to Babylon?

If your basing your conclusion on Self Esteem, what about Low Self Esteem? Well lets look at both.

My point is obviously high self esteem doesn’t diminish negative behavior, may well be a factor in it. Easy situation to see above, the “I earned the right to behave this way” “I’m doing so great, I ‘deserve’ to break the rules a ‘little’ bit” “I earned this right, and feel so good about myself, I’m going out and [fill in the folly]” Everyone knows this individual now don’t we? They are so full of themself they actually believe “somehow” their presence we are so graced with is of more value than anothers. And they do not have to be an extravert. If fact I would say an introvert who thinks as such is even more dangerous.

The exercise is to challenge the thoughts in your head seperated from the feelings understood moment by moment. The process is to be able to “identify” exactly how you feel at all time and understand where these feelings are coming from. So called “normal” people of the world do this without thought. You probly do it without thought which is why you don’t see the process. I did it without thought once upon a time.

Ok, then you state; “Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem” Ok, lets look at that.

So then, what do you do with the 13 yo young girl just dropped off at your office, just raped and hospitalized, abused for years, who’s sitting legs crossed, arms folded, can’t but help stair at the floor and simply can’t look up, and, as you talk you realize she derives “good feelings” from cutting herself now and again “just a little” cause it “feels good”. See how quickly senerios change.

Whats the cure, a shot of High Self Esteem? Wheres that precribed at?

You don’t wind up in someones office by “chance” one day. Obviously there’s a reason your sitting is “anothers” chair.

The problem is this, when I say how do you feel? And you truly do not know. That blank look appears which equates to “lost”. Often the problem resides in this realm. High self-esteem and success to not equate to emotionally stable individuals. Course again we would have to define success. There resides many different lifestyles you may find appauling.

Talking about what is going on with yourself is never going to hurt you. Though it may seem like its pulling teeth.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If you want proper self-esteem, seek God-esteem instead and you will get there a lifetime faster.

Alan

 

[Robert_Sock]

If you want proper self-esteem, seek God-esteem instead and you will get there a lifetime faster.

Alan