How much can you trust psychology?

[Robert_Sock]

I’ll have to disagree Robert. Not sure how you conclude this. Why in the world would someone want to twist truth to a lie, who is actually trying to help you? In fact as I described above its exactly opposite. Is this the opinion of an extravert?

Self Esteem is what our unconscious believes to be true about how worthy, lovable, valuable, capable we are…simply worded. Course from there its a deep sea diving class.

The question is HOW did you get to the point of sitting in a clinic regardless of high or low self esteem. How does one arrive at that point. Well,some are rescued, others realize something just isn’t right, but can’t pin it down. Others reluctant participants in there own well being, for whatever reason, court pressure etc.

Image may well play a factor simply because you may really believe you actually are the image you created and look at daily in the mirror. In other words your living a lie, and I do agree you probly will not want to hear the truth. I’m sure most of the Hells Angels MC really believe they “are” that image for example. They have me convinced anyway. But are they?

We are talking the apparent result of a total emotional and motivational state in the present moment, which is a result of individual feelings dealt with in a productive manner moment by moment, or not, thought by throught. However you surpassed the first steps and have the process in reverse.

What Self Esteem did Jesus have for example? A King taking on the presence of a Servant, how did he behave? He didn’t say, come on guys the drinks are me tonight because I’m king? Lets head to Babylon?

If your basing your conclusion on Self Esteem, what about Low Self Esteem? Well lets look at both.

My point is obviously high self esteem doesn’t diminish negative behavior, may well be a factor in it. Easy situation to see above, the “I earned the right to behave this way” “I’m doing so great, I ‘deserve’ to break the rules a ‘little’ bit” “I earned this right, and feel so good about myself, I’m going out and [fill in the folly]” Everyone knows this individual now don’t we? They are so full of themself they actually believe “somehow” their presence we are so graced with is of more value than anothers. And they do not have to be an extravert. If fact I would say an introvert who thinks as such is even more dangerous.

The exercise is to challenge the thoughts in your head seperated from the feelings understood moment by moment. The process is to be able to “identify” exactly how you feel at all time and understand where these feelings are coming from. So called “normal” people of the world do this without thought. You probly do it without thought which is why you don’t see the process. I did it without thought once upon a time.

Ok, then you state; “Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem” Ok, lets look at that.

So then, what do you do with the 13 yo young girl just dropped off at your office, just raped and hospitalized, abused for years, who’s sitting legs crossed, arms folded, can’t but help stair at the floor and simply can’t look up, and, as you talk you realize she derives “good feelings” from cutting herself now and again “just a little” cause it “feels good”. See how quickly senerios change.

Whats the cure, a shot of High Self Esteem? Wheres that precribed at?

You don’t wind up in someones office by “chance” one day. Obviously there’s a reason your sitting is “anothers” chair.

The problem is this, when I say how do you feel? And you truly do not know. That blank look appears which equates to “lost”. Often the problem resides in this realm. High self-esteem and success to not equate to emotionally stable individuals. Course again we would have to define success. There resides many different lifestyles you may find appauling.

Talking about what is going on with yourself is never going to hurt you. Though it may seem like its pulling teeth.

My observation are in clinical psychology and I find a great reliance on self-esteem. They will defend it to no end. Again, my contention is that certain types of esteem are superior to self-esteem. To have high self-esteem is to be a true introvert.

 

[meltzerboy]

The field of clinical psychology is filled with lies and deception. Truths get twisted for lies. Take self-esteem for example, I tend to think that self-esteem is evil. Think about it: self-esteem is introverted and caters to the self. Contrast that with simple esteem that is directed outward instead if inward; for example, esteem towards life, esteem towards friends, and esteem toward religion. This is what it means to be a true extrovert.

Want emotionally stable individuals; promote high esteem as opposed to high self-esteem.

The media, of course, is extreme with self-esteem, and psychologists will tell you that self-esteem is very healthy and necessary for proper development. I say hogwash! In psychology, if someone is having problems, self-esteem is the first place psychologist look. Raise self-esteem and you will diminish negative behaviors. The problem is that we are addicted to self-esteem. Let something bad happen to self-esteem and look out, the individual crashes emotionally. Self-esteem leads to pride and other sins; esteem leads to LOVE and other virtues.

Robert, why does self-esteem have to be considered in an all-or-none fashion? I think a certain level of self-esteem is necessary; but, on the other hand, exaggerated self-esteem may be harmful. One of the alternative meanings of self-esteem is our ability to evaluate honestly both our strengths and our weaknesses. People who cannot do this, because they exaggerate either their weaknesses or their strengths, have, according to this definition, low self-esteem. By contrast, people who are able to measure accurately both their strengths and their weaknesses have high self-esteem. I think the latter is essential to psychological well-being.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think “self-esteem” is too vague a term for most uses, because it can connote too wide a range of things to really be something that can be discussed independent of context.

From thesaurus.com, we have these synonyms:

definition: pride

synonyms: amour propre, conceit, confidence, dignity, egotism, morale, narcissism, self-assurance, self-content, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, vanity, worth

Some of these things are considered good things, some bad. You can’t just use the term without significant context or narrowed definition. We argue about words all the time and about meaning too infrequently.
:hug3:

Alan

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, why does self-esteem have to be considered in an all-or-none fashion? I think a certain level of self-esteem is necessary; but, on the other hand, exaggerated self-esteem may be harmful. One of the alternative meanings of self-esteem is our ability to evaluate honestly both our strengths and our weaknesses. People who cannot do this, because they exaggerate either their weaknesses or their strengths, have, according to this definition, low self-esteem. By contrast, people who are able to measure accurately both their strengths and their weaknesses have high self-esteem. I think the latter is essential to psychological well-being.

Hi;
I believe that it is maladaptive to measure oneself relative to others. I contend that with proper esteem, one does not need self-esteem in order to be mentally healthy.

I wish I could say I came about this conclusion by “science,” but it was not. I merely came about this through personal observation. I realize I’m the underdog in terms as taking on APA and that most every clinical psychologist will argue otherwise. Mine is a religious journey and as such, it allows me to see self-esteem and esteem in a different light.

Self-esteem is considered by some to be the quick fix in clinical counseling. Whatever the problem, raise their self-esteem and you will lower “neurotic” symptoms. But the fix is usually short-lived and the patient soon returns.

Self-esteem is also harmful because it too easily turns to pride.

 

[graciew]

All in all I find that a child or adult with a low overall appraisal of what they are worth,do not perform in a balanced way and suffer as well.
I believe that being/feeling worthy as children of God,if you wish,is a healthy stand.
My experience with psychologists has been more than valuable,and has at all times been aligned with my beliefs.
So I do not understand why there is so much issue with psychologists,unless somebody has had a bad experience.They can be very helpful with your everyday life as in crisis.
Can´t see why prayer has to do away with therapy or even medicine when it is necessary.Sounds even as defying to me.

 

[graciew]

QUOTE=.

Self-esteem is also harmful because it too easily turns to pride.

I frankly disagree with this.Self esteem has to do with an overall appraisal that one is worthy is you wish.That is respect,dignity,and has little to do with pride.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I frankly disagree with this.Self esteem has to do with an overall appraisal that one is worthy is you wish.That is respect,dignity,and has little to do with pride.

Neither “self-esteem” not “esteem” are even found in the Catholic Enclyclopedia, so I look to dictionary.com:

self-es·teem   [self-i-steem, self-]

noun

1. a realistic respect for or favorable impression of oneself; self-respect.
2. an inordinately or exaggeratedly favorable impression of oneself.

So it can go either way, unless like I suggested, you specifically narrow the context and agree upon it for purposes of the discussion. Otherwise meaningful discussion will be prevented.

Alan

 

[graciew]

Neither “self-esteem” not “esteem” are even found in the Catholic Enclyclopedia, so I look to dictionary.com:

self-es·teem   [self-i-steem, self-]

noun

1. a realistic respect for or favorable impression of oneself; self-respect.
2. an inordinately or exaggeratedly favorable impression of oneself.

So it can go either way, unless like I suggested, you specifically narrow the context and agree upon it for purposes of the discussion. Otherwise meaningful discussion will be prevented.

Alan

ok.I see your point.

 

[CopticChristian]

You sound indoctrinated by psychologists who say that self-esteem is good. It isn’t.

Another example, look at how many times love is mentioned in psychology and compare that to the amount of LOVE in the NT. Follow Love and you will see that short-comings characteristic in psychology. Don’t trust anything in the media that lacks LOVE.

Sock,

You error. How do you define Love?

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi;
I believe that it is maladaptive to measure oneself relative to others. I contend that with proper esteem, one does not need self-esteem in order to be mentally healthy.

I wish I could say I came about this conclusion by “science,” but it was not. I merely came about this through personal observation. I realize I’m the underdog in terms as taking on APA and that most every clinical psychologist will argue otherwise. Mine is a religious journey and as such, it allows me to see self-esteem and esteem in a different light.

Self-esteem is considered by some to be the quick fix in clinical counseling. Whatever the problem, raise their self-esteem and you will lower “neurotic” symptoms. But the fix is usually short-lived and the patient soon returns.

Self-esteem is also harmful because it too easily turns to pride.

You are prejudicing your discussion by what you mean self esteem to mean. You are jaded by your own filters.

Rather than argue about what you think self-esteem means and what the establishment thinks it means…the question is what does it mean in the context of a discussion.

I think that for me self-esteem is just thinking I am OK and I do. If you want to argue with me about that then I think you are not OK and that is your problem and not mine. Take your lack of understanding elsewhere.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi;
I believe that it is maladaptive to measure oneself relative to others. I contend that with proper esteem, one does not need self-esteem in order to be mentally healthy.

I wish I could say I came about this conclusion by “science,” but it was not. I merely came about this through personal observation. I realize I’m the underdog in terms as taking on APA and that most every clinical psychologist will argue otherwise. Mine is a religious journey and as such, it allows me to see self-esteem and esteem in a different light.

Self-esteem is considered by some to be the quick fix in clinical counseling. Whatever the problem, raise their self-esteem and you will lower “neurotic” symptoms. But the fix is usually short-lived and the patient soon returns.

Self-esteem is also harmful because it too easily turns to pride.

Sock,

I have a quick fix for you. This is what you believe. I can live with that. What you believe is not what the world believes and nothing you can do will change that.

Your contention is a proposition that is defined and implemented by you based on your experience and understanding and I can live with that. You cannot translate that to “well I am so glad you taught me something here”…It is your opinion.

Your admission of your understanding should cause you to pause and understand that to argue about something that has no relationship to what others understand is key. We haven’t been on your journey. You have. Bless you.

Your notion about self esteem as a quick fix is certainly foreign to my way of thinking. In a counseling setting I may think…wow this kid thinks poorly of themselves…my first thought is not…let’s raise their self-esteem…my first thought is …I wonder what is going on here and why…

Tell my how you believe that someone can raise self-esteem as you say it is done. Outline for me the particulars as you understand them. Say…you over there with low self-esteem…here is what you need to do to fix it…now this is a short lived thing but here is what you do…tell me.

I pray you have no self-esteem so that you will not be bothered by this idiom.

 

[Holly3278]

I think that we can trust psychology a lot. I have a psychiatrist and of course he studied a lot of psychology in college/university since that is why psychiatry is all about. If we didn’t have psychiatry, a lot of people with mental illness would be in a lot of trouble.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Robert, why does self-esteem have to be considered in an all-or-none fashion? I think a certain level of self-esteem is necessary; but, on the other hand, exaggerated self-esteem may be harmful. One of the alternative meanings of self-esteem is our ability to evaluate honestly both our strengths and our weaknesses. People who cannot do this, because they exaggerate either their weaknesses or their strengths, have, according to this definition, low self-esteem. By contrast, people who are able to measure accurately both their strengths and their weaknesses have high self-esteem. I think the latter is essential to psychological well-being.

I agree, and I thought about what you said earlier. Also we have to consider exactly what area this hypo psychologist is involved with, which may be one of serveral. Its another point you mentioned earlier which cannot be over looked.

For example high functioning behavior units in Mental Retardation or Mental Health state facilitys. Still dealing with behavior but a very different approach. Often self-esteem isn’t the passing thought here. Its how do I resolve this behavior ASAP, since the welfare of everyone, staff and residents is at stake with violent abusive residents who are usually also self-abusive.

 

[Robert_Sock]

People are thinking the same old way about self esteem. How can any psychologist honestly say that self-esteem is more important than loving esteem is beyond me.

Self-esteem is from Satan. Satan says self-esteem is good and people believe it as a part of “science.” The concept of self is an illusion and it is evil! We are the temples of the Holy Spirit where “self” has no place.

Bottom line: People who look at the world through the eyes of high esteem are going to be better adjusted than people bogged down with the evils of self-esteem.

 

[GaryTaylor]

People are thinking the same old way about self esteem. How can any psychologist honestly say that self-esteem is more important than loving esteem is beyond me…

I don’t know than anyone is saying this. Self Esteem correctly understood is involved and is “self” understanding. One may understand Love in a very confused way. The self does exist for its self evident. Seeing the self for what it truly is, is another issue. No doubt one can live in a complete state of illusion. There is your inner self, and your physical outward self which everyone immediately see’s. To confuse the later as the previous is a folly which is also self evident through time.

Self-esteem is from Satan. Satan says self-esteem is good and people believe it as a part of “science.” The concept of self is an illusion and it is evil! We are the temples of the Holy Spirit where “self” has no place…

No Robert, self esteem is no-more than a window of understanding. Through this window we are viewing an individuals unconscious and what it believes to be true about how worthy, lovable, valuable, capable they are. It certainly helps to realize the center in everyones life should be God, since much of folly is eliminating God and following a strick guideline of modren psychology. One should compliment the other and this is what I have come to believe. And yes I have seen individuals change there life without using the Bible but just modern psychology.

Bottom line: People who look at the world through the eyes of high esteem are going to be better adjusted than people bogged down with the evils of self-esteem.

Robert look at what you state in your other paragraph? Robert self esteem is from satan. There is nothing evil as a general rule with high self esteem or low self-esteem. Either could well be a redeeming quality or a path in negative behavior.

Yes Love correctly understood is a great value. If we all view each other “first” as a son or daughter of God. Then proceed in individual relationships in responsible Love and Concern. It would go a long way in society and human progress.

 

[meltzerboy]

People are thinking the same old way about self esteem. How can any psychologist honestly say that self-esteem is more important than loving esteem is beyond me.

Self-esteem is from Satan. Satan says self-esteem is good and people believe it as a part of “science.” The concept of self is an illusion and it is evil! We are the temples of the Holy Spirit where “self” has no place.

Bottom line: People who look at the world through the eyes of high esteem are going to be better adjusted than people bogged down with the evils of self-esteem.

When you say the concept of self is an illusion, I know this is not in accord with Judaism and believe it is also contrary to Catholic teaching. It sounds more like part of Hindu philosophy. And adding that the concept of self is also evil does not sound like any religion I know of. Perhaps Catholicism points out the inappropriateness of focusing only on the self (as does Judaism), and even approves of self-denial, but does not state, according to my understanding, that the self is evil. Evidently, this is your own way of thinking, which is fine with me, but at least now we can better understand where you’re coming from.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think that we can trust psychology a lot. I have a psychiatrist and of course he studied a lot of psychology in college/university since that is why psychiatry is all about. If we didn’t have psychiatry, a lot of people with mental illness would be in a lot of trouble.

Exactly Holly, even case’s like trauma and abuse as I mentioned above. Could these Souls find their way out alone? Sure they could with a great effort. In fact they are the one’s putting in the work so to speak, just like you are with your Doctor. The clinic is simply guiding them along until the light goes on in their mind. So they are constantly confronted with what is the issue, instead of a distraction which may lead one away for another couple years etc. Yes this may be uncomfortable to the individual, Not a mystery I understand this. But if this comfortability is literally hurting you on a emotional level? I’d say be uncomfortable to obtain the desired goal. In other words the need to change is seen and acknowledged, now how does your desire fit into this known?

Its like this, if someone tells you Holly [not that I think you do at all] you have a serious problem with Anger. You may think they are wrong and absolutely crazy and dismiss the thought immediately. OK, if another person states; “Holly you should take a look at your anger issue.” You may say; “I know, someone else said the same, however I am good with my overall behavior”. Well, if another individual arrives and states; “Holly, your anger is an issue?” Sooner of later it has to dawn on you they are not “all” wrong. Maybe you have an issue with anger you should take a look at? Or I would have to conclude you are in denial.

Just Saying.

 

[GaryTaylor]

When you say the concept of self is an illusion, I know this is not in accord with Judaism and believe it is also contrary to Catholic teaching. It sounds more like part of Hindu philosophy. And adding that the concept of self is also evil does not sound like any religion I know of. Perhaps Catholicism points out the inappropriateness of focusing only on the self (as does Judaism), and even approves of self-denial, but does not state, according to my understanding, that the self is evil. Evidently, this is your own way of thinking, which is fine with me, but at least now we can better understand where you’re coming from.

You read my mind, I just didn’t go there with Hindu/Buddist etc.

 

[graciew]

People are thinking the same old way about self esteem. How can any psychologist honestly say that self-esteem is more important than loving esteem is beyond me.

Self-esteem is from Satan. Satan says self-esteem is good and people believe it as a part of “science.” The concept of self is an illusion and it is evil! We are the temples of the Holy Spirit where “self” has no place.

Robert,I just do not want to go back to the time people with mental illnesses had to be locked up in a room because nobody knew what to do with them,and probably many thought they were possessed.It would be going back to Galileo´s trial with psychologists instead. These we know now can be just minor chemical disfunctioning.
Self esteem is not from Satan, Would you advice a son to let be bullied or a woman to be battered cause they deserve it if they do not believe they are worthy of respect at a minimum?What is that then?
If you are posting by experience with psychoogists,I am sorry for you have endured.If it is hearsay,you are not helping those who may need the loving help of a science that has tons of observable evidence that has been very beneficial.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Robert,I just do not want to go back to the time people with mental illnesses had to be locked up in a room because nobody knew what to do with them,and probably many thought they were possessed.It would be going back to Galileo´s trial with psychologists instead. These we know now can be just minor chemical disfunctioning.

“Chemical imbalance” is a cliche for alleged causes of many types of mental illness that are without physical damage to the brain. It makes it seem like the people who become psychotic, like me, just do so randomly because of some “chemical imbalance.” Well I’ll tell you, when you go through a kind of hell that gets you very upset – such as dealing with idiots on all fronts – and don’t hardly sleep, THEN you get a chemical imbalance.

Self esteem is not from Satan, Would you advice a son to let be bullied or a woman to be battered cause they deserve it if they do not believe they are worthy of respect at a minimum?What is that then?

I call it the result of a lifetime with verbal abuse. Many of us are taught, especially in religion, (at least a few years back) that they were basically worthless scum and we don’t deserve anything, blah blah blah. In that case, I’d call it “toxic religion,” not lack of self-esteem.

If you are posting by experience with psychoogists,I am sorry for you have endured.If it is hearsay,you are not helping those who may need the loving help of a science that has tons of observable evidence that has been very beneficial.

It’s a science, but it’s also an industry – greedy and ruthless as any industry. Many individual doctors are great, but the industry is not designed to question itself and do a better job on behalf of patients. I can tell you from personal experience that the industry is full of lies and deceit, and they don’t even follow their own published standards for patient treatment – and I found this out in just one “visit” to the hospital in 2001. The worst thing that could happen to psychology and psychiatry is that there is a cure that does not require medicine or long term professional counseling. Even the thought of it, and whoever said it is burned at the stake.

Alan