How much did Adam and Eve know about God?

[Sirach2]

One more scripture that I don’t think has been shared in the thread above, which in all probability will receive the same cold shoulder of unbelief.

Hebrews 1:1-6. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Please take notice that the scripture JW’s Founder has rewritten for John 1:1, says here, in addition, that Jesus, the Word, was present at the foundation of the world, together with the Father.

CO7, this is very grievous to me spiritually, that nobody is able to get a single admission from you as to the truths we share. As I said before, and may God remind me, I am done communicating with you, as it is a losing battle. You have been very much programmed by your WT and Kingdom Hall associates. But kindly stop trying to be a sales rep for JW’s here on a Catholic Forum. We do not enter your arena to proselytize OUR beliefs, so I ask for the same courtesy here. Amen. God bless!

 

[ChosenOne7]

:banghead: I trust you recognize how frustrating this is, since you revert right back to your own belief, no matter how much others share with you. I addressed this here:

AND HERE:

So who is not sharing scriptures of what Catholics believe, CO7?

Like I’ve said before and I’ll say it again… Whenever I’m on a thread like this I have more than one person I have to comment to and all of them using different verses, it does get difficult to keep up and reply to everyone - it’s almost like being in a room and everyone is asking questions at the same time all wanting to get an answer, you fortunate that no one else questions what you saying so you basically only have me to reply to… Even on this thread there are people I have not responded to which I’m well aware of but I respond to the ones I think it’s most important… Like the question of me being a cradle jw or not… I don’t see the importance of that answer whether I am or not wouldn’t matter.

 

[Sirach2]

Like the question of me being a cradle jw or not… I don’t see the importance of that answer whether I am or not wouldn’t matter.

Yes, it does matter. See our CCC on this:

2089 *Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

And scripture:
Pt. 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

If you were baptized and have denied the faith, it is very much a serious matter.

For the record, too, your Founder was only 18 years old when he established his ‘religion’ … hardly a mature believer. alwaysbeready.com/jehovahs-witnesses?id=118#jwunbiblicalteachings

 

[iohannes13]

Like I’ve said before and I’ll say it again… Whenever I’m on a thread like this I have more than one person I have to comment to and all of them using different verses, it does get difficult to keep up and reply to everyone - it’s almost like being in a room and everyone is asking questions at the same time all wanting to get an answer, you fortunate that no one else questions what you saying so you basically only have me to reply to… Even on this thread there are people I have not responded to which I’m well aware of but I respond to the ones I think it’s most important… Like the question of me being a cradle jw or not… I don’t see the importance of that answer whether I am or not wouldn’t matter.

It’s important to me that’s why I asked it.

 

[Sirach2]

We are seriously off-topic, giving audience exclusively to the beliefs of JW’s. I respectfully ask that this thread be closed or split. Mea culpa!

 

[iohannes13]

You are highly mistaken… Do you really think I know who I’m going to go preach to when I go preaching door to door? Do you really think I can see who is behind that door that people are depressed? Lol… Little knowledge of what we do… Your claims are just like everyone else’s trying to make us look bad… We have never been partial when it comes to our preaching work because the command is that everyone should hear the message not the poor and sick an depressed only… We preach to people of all religions aswel, we also preach to people of all religions like Muslims, Mormons, all those different protestant religions too… Most of the time we don’t even know what religion the person is in until they tell us… And yes we do come across church leaders, pastor’s, priests, imams, we preach to many people who has studied theology… So I don’t see where you get your claims from… And lastly we are trained to use the Bible we have 5 meetings a week, at each meeting we make use of the Bible and study it… We go in depth with studying the Bible maybe that’s why we can use the Bible so well … Please don’t think we target Catholics we just doing it for everyone

Uuuhhhmmmm issue after issue the Watchtower booklet focuses on some Catholic teaching to discredit it. Tell me, when was the last time that the Watchtower booklets talked about what Joel Osteen teaches?

 

[iohannes13]

YOU say " life had existed millions of years before man existed ", the Bible doesn’t back you up!

Truth backs me up bro

 

[iohannes13]

We are seriously off-topic, giving audience exclusively to the beliefs of JW’s. I respectfully ask that this thread be closed or split. Mea culpa!

Sirach2, I think we’ve been off topic since page 2 and

 

[iohannes13]

Like I’ve said before and I’ll say it again… Whenever I’m on a thread like this I have more than one person I have to comment to and all of them using different verses, it does get difficult to keep up and reply to everyone - it’s almost like being in a room and everyone is asking questions at the same time all wanting to get an answer, you fortunate that no one else questions what you saying so you basically only have me to reply to… Even on this thread there are people I have not responded to which I’m well aware of but I respond to the ones I think it’s most important… Like the question of me being a cradle jw or not… I don’t see the importance of that answer whether I am or not wouldn’t matter.

My questions didn’t require you to pull Bible verses. For instance, I asked whether you denied that the Watchtower teaches that the non-Watchtower Bibles are corrupted by the Satanas.

 

[ChosenOne7]

One more scripture that I don’t think has been shared in the thread above, which in all probability will receive the same cold shoulder of unbelief.

Hebrews 1:1-6. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Please take notice that the scripture JW’s Founder has rewritten for John 1:1, says here, in addition, that Jesus, the Word, was present at the foundation of the world, together with the Father.

See this is the problem sometimes you mention and quote too many verse to try to make a point, you 1st mentioned Colossians and now you speak of Hebrews an at the same time mention John 1:1. It would be so much easier to stick to one verse and discuss it… I normally don’t jump between verses like that

 

[iohannes13]

I asked whether you denied that the Watchtower teaches that the non-Watchtower Bibles are corrupted by the Satanas.

???

 

[Sirach2]

My questions didn’t require you to pull Bible verses. For instance, I asked whether you denied that the Watchtower teaches that the non-Watchtower Bibles are corrupted by the Satanas.

In one of our apologists’ tracts here at CAF, we find these words, alleging that it is not only the bibles (although that may also be their belief), but also all Christian denominations: I guess only the JW’s will attain salvation, and only the WT teaches absolute truth…

(A side note here: The Witnesses believe that all Christian denominations are demonic in origin, and they maintain Christianity as a whole went apostate—that is, entirely abandoned the true faith—starting all the way back in the latter portion of the first century A.D. From their perspective, this alleged apostasy actually fulfills predictions in the New Testament that a mass falling-away will occur. The main problem with this reasoning is that while the New Testament does speak of an apostasy, it refers to the falling away of large number of believers near the end times, not to the defection of the Church as an institution at any time.)

 

[iohannes13]

In one of our apologists’ tracts here at CAF, we find these words, alleging that it is not only the bibles (although that may also be their belief), but also all Christian denominations: I guess only the JW’s will attain salvation, and only the WT teaches absolute truth…

(A side note here: The Witnesses believe that all Christian denominations are demonic in origin, and they maintain Christianity as a whole went apostate—that is, entirely abandoned the true faith—starting all the way back in the latter portion of the first century A.D. From their perspective, this alleged apostasy actually fulfills predictions in the New Testament that a mass falling-away will occur. The main problem with this reasoning is that while the New Testament does speak of an apostasy, it refers to the falling away of large number of believers near the end times, not to the defection of the Church as an institution at any time.)

Sirach, that statement is completely true. The Watchtower booklets clearly teach this. And in the JW’s eyes, none is worse than the Whore of Babylon - The Roman Catholic Church.

I’ve attended JW meetings/gatherings (your religious reunions), so I know from first hand experience Chosen.

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach, that statement is completely true. The Watchtower booklets clearly teach this. And in the JW’s eyes, none is worse than the Whore of Babylon - The Roman Catholic Church.

I’ve attended JW meetings/gatherings (your religious reunions), so I know from first hand experience Chosen.

Ah, I see where you get your info now. Maybe Chosen is using CAF as his mission territory on behalf of the JW’s.

 

[iohannes13]

Ah, I see where you get your info now. Maybe Chosen is using CAF as his mission territory on behalf of the JW’s.

The ones I dealt with always reveled and were drunk in their smugness that everyone else has it wrong (and were damned) and only they have the truth and the knowledge to salvation. There is some psychology (but I don’t remember the details) of how this type of view helps keep the group together and tight knit. There is a strong chance Chosen may be here only to satisfy his own ego. But he might be using his time on CAF to meet his quota of hours that he has to put in per week “evangelizing.”

Chosen, does “evangelizing” online now count to meet your weekly quota?

 

[Sirach2]

The ones I dealt with always reveled and were drunk in their smugness that everyone else has it wrong (and were damned) and only they have the truth and the knowledge to salvation. There is some psychology (but I don’t remember the details) of how this type of view helps keep the group together and tight knit. There is a strong chance Chosen may be here only to satisfy his own ego. But he might be using his time on CAF to meet his quota of hours that he has to put in per week “evangelizing.”

Chosen, does “evangelizing” online now count to meet your weekly quota?

That is really very sad, and I am not kidding when I say my spirit is grieving for the lost. I do pray for them, but I see how futile it is to try and dialog with them.

Gotta wonder about John 14:21 if they have ever received a manifestation in their spirit of the triune God, attendant with all the exaltation and joy that brings. I always give daily thanks to God that He allowed me to be born into a Catholic family, though I have done nothing to deserve His mercy.

 

[Sirach2]

I suppose a good closing prayer for us Catholics would be this from Phil. 3:8.

"I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him . . ."

And as a final admonition using Christ’s words from Isaiah 6:9:

Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; 12 so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”

My closing remarks for this thread.

 

[ChosenOne7]

My questions didn’t require you to pull Bible verses. For instance, I asked whether you denied that the Watchtower teaches that the non-Watchtower Bibles are corrupted by the Satanas.

For decades, Jehovah’s Witnesses used, printed, and distributed various versions of the Bible. The reason we upgrade our Bible is because languages change over time, and many translations contain obscure or obsolete expressions that are difficult to understand - like for example we don’t speak English the way people in those days spoke like the Shakespearean English and words used then had different meanings to similar words used today, that’s the way the KJV Bible was written, so we translate it into the modern English language so that anyone who reads it will understand. Also, more ancient manuscripts that are more accurate and closer to the originals have been discovered, resulting in a better comprehension of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Doesn’t mean that we can’t use your Bible hence I asked you what Bible do you use so I can use it too, since we are bearers of God’s name we prefer using one that has not removed God’s name from it as most bibles have done.

Jason David BeDuhn, Ph.D. is an historian of religion and culture, currently Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University. Jason BeDuhn holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, an M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloomington.

Based on his analysis of nine major English translations, Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies, wrote: “The NW [New World Translation] emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.” Although the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation are the result of religious bias on the part of its translators, BeDuhn stated: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation of the original expressions of the New Testament writers.”—Truth in Translation, pages 163, 165.
I like what he says and I quote

I have to say that most of the ‘scholars’ quoted are not ‘scholars’ at all, but highly biased and ill-informed critics of the JWs as a ‘cult’, whose sole purpose is to attack the JWs, warn people to stay away from them, and try to win JWs from their community. I have no interest at all in modern denominational conflicts in Christianity. I am a historian and a linguist whose only interest in this matter is to see the New Testament translated in a way that accurately reflects the thinking and culture of its ancient authors.

There are also many reviews about the book if you want to you can check it out I’ll provide the link - amazon.com/gp/aw/review/0761825568/R3E9J7CCXLY4W9/ref=cm_cr_dp_aw_rvw_2?ie=UTF8&cursor=2
One reviewer says and I quote

By Basileios Tsialas - January 1, 2005
I am Greek, I have been raised in Greece, I have studied Classical Greek for two years in high school (Classical Greek is much more complicated than koine, or Common Greek) and I have been studding the original Greek text of the Bible for about 10 years. Having this background, I responsibly say that this book presents quite right, well documented and reliable linguistic information. Yes, its writer must be considered adequate as regards his knowledge of the Biblical Greek. So, this book sheds plenty of light about subjects of whitch the common English reader has no idea. For example: English readers often claim that NW is false in Jonh 1:1. Trinitarians in Greece have never used this specific verse to claim that the New World Translation (NW) is wrong, since all the Orthodox versions read actually the same with the greek version of the NW. And this happens because the wording of this verse is very clear for the Greek reader, and there is no place for debate. I am sorry to say this, but for a Greek it is rediculus to debate on John 1:1.

Of course, many will be disappointed by BeDunh because he proves that many of the famous Bible versions are inaccurate and mislead their readers.

I don’t know much about that but I went through the book Jason BeDuhn wrote… Maybe you guys can do the same. I think that is why we can’t get to common ground on certain beliefs because of the translations.

 

[iohannes13]

For decades, Jehovah’s Witnesses used, printed, and distributed various versions of the Bible. The reason we upgrade our Bible is because languages change over time, and many translations contain obscure or obsolete expressions that are difficult to understand - like for example we don’t speak English the way people in those days spoke like the Shakespearean English and words used then had different meanings to similar words used today, that’s the way the KJV Bible was written, so we translate it into the modern English language so that anyone who reads it will understand. Also, more ancient manuscripts that are more accurate and closer to the originals have been discovered, resulting in a better comprehension of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Doesn’t mean that we can’t use your Bible hence I asked you what Bible do you use so I can use it too, since we are bearers of God’s name we prefer using one that has not removed God’s name from it as most bibles have done.

Jason David BeDuhn, Ph.D. is an historian of religion and culture, currently Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University. Jason BeDuhn holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, an M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloomington.

Based on his analysis of nine major English translations, Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies, wrote: “The NW [New World Translation] emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.” Although the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation are the result of religious bias on the part of its translators, BeDuhn stated: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation of the original expressions of the New Testament writers.”—Truth in Translation, pages 163, 165.
I like what he says and I quote

There are also many reviews about the book if you want to you can check it out I’ll provide the link - amazon.com/gp/aw/review/0761825568/R3E9J7CCXLY4W9/ref=cm_cr_dp_aw_rvw_2?ie=UTF8&cursor=2
One reviewer says and I quote

I don’t know much about that but I went through the book Jason BeDuhn wrote… Maybe you guys can do the same. I think that is why we can’t get to common ground on certain beliefs because of the translations.

Wow, thanks for all this info but you still didn’t answer the question. Do you deny that the Watchtower teaches that all non-Watchtower Bibles are corrupted by the Devil and only the WatchTower Bibles are reliable?

Chosen, who did you say pays for the books that JWs hand out (the hard cover books)? Does the Watchtower give them to you for free to hand out?

 

[ChosenOne7]

Wow, thanks for all this info but you still didn’t answer the question. Do you deny that the Watchtower teaches that all non-Watchtower Bibles are corrupted by the Devil and only the WatchTower Bibles are reliable? I’ve asked this question four times I think now.

And that’s my answer I have never seen any publications that say that… We do say Satan is in control of this world and of false religion… But that’s what every other religion would say too, just like how you would say about our Bible… What’s interesting and maybe you don’t know it I said this before and I’ll say it again we have and do use other Bibles even when preaching to people… The claims you make are not new remember that. We once came to a Catholic and this lady was so sure that our Bible is wrong because her church leader said so, she musn’t listen to us we put God’s name in the Bible and blah blah blah… We kindly asked her did you read our Bible before? She said no, did you read your Bible before she said not really, so why do you just believe the church leader,asked her to bring her own Bible, she brought the good news Bible not sure if Catholics use that but ya… How surprised she was when we showed her God’s name in her own Bible… Speechless… Then another occasion we come across a church pastor can’t remember which faith he belonged to he also didn’t want us showing anything from our Bible, we said fine bring your Bible then he had the king James version, again we showed him from his own Bible what it says what could he say… So just like you believe our Bibles are different and has been changed, so do we share the same sentiments about other Bibles, since God’s name has been removed out of all of them it’s something we too question. It’s like Sirach2 said most Catholics aren’t well educated in the Bible and that goes for protestants too… We study the Bible not just ours we are well educated on other Bibles too. But for someone that’s biased and that wont believe anything a JW says we encourage them to check up with professors like Jason BeDuhn… There are many more unbiased professors like him who said the same about the NWT