How much did Adam and Eve know about God?

[iohannes13]

And that’s my answer I have never seen any publications that say that… We do say Satan is in control of this world and of false religion… But that’s what every other religion would say too, just like how you would say about our Bible… What’s interesting and maybe you don’t know it I said this before and I’ll say it again we have and do use other Bibles even when preaching to people… The claims you make are not new remember that. We once came to a Catholic and this lady was so sure that our Bible is wrong because her church leader said so, she musn’t listen to us we put God’s name in the Bible and blah blah blah… We kindly asked her did you read our Bible before? She said no, did you read your Bible before she said not really, so why do you just believe the church leader,asked her to bring her own Bible, she brought the good news Bible not sure if Catholics use that but ya… How surprised she was when we showed her God’s name in her own Bible… Speechless… Then another occasion we come across a church pastor can’t remember which faith he belonged to he also didn’t want us showing anything from our Bible, we said fine bring your Bible then he had the king James version, again we showed him from his own Bible what it says what could he say… So just like you believe our Bibles are different and has been changed, so do we share the same sentiments about other Bibles, since God’s name has been removed out of all of them it’s something we too question. It’s like Sirach2 said most Catholics aren’t well educated in the Bible and that goes for protestants too… We study the Bible not just ours we are well educated on other Bibles too. But for someone that’s biased and that wont believe anything a JW says we encourage them to check up with professors like Jason BeDuhn… There are many more unbiased professors like him who said the same about the NWT

Still, I asked you whether or not the Watchtower teaches that all the other Bibles are corrupted by the Satanas. I’ll ask it differently. Do you believe that the non-Watchtower Bibles are not corrupted by Satan and are the inerrant word of God?

 

[ChosenOne7]

Still, I asked you whether or not the Watchtower teaches that all the other Bibles are corrupted by the Satanas. I’ll ask it differently. Do you believe that the non-Watchtower Bibles are not corrupted by Satan and are the inerrant word of God?

And I said I have never seen any publication of ours teach or say that… I think it would be ironic for us to believe that because the new world translation was only created in 1961 which means that witnesses back then had to use other translations to go about there preaching and teaching work even then with those Bibles we still did not believe Jesus to be GOD, or in hell fire, or in the immortality of the soul. Often the claim is that our bibles are different and made to support out beliefs but professors still would say our Bible is most closest to original scripts and most unbiased compared to well known ones like the kjv. Who am I to argue with professors… In short no I don’t believe that

 

[iohannes13]

And I said I have never seen any publication of ours teach or say that… I think it would be ironic for us to believe that because the new world translation was only created in 1961 which means that witnesses back then had to use other translations to go about there preaching and teaching work even then with those Bibles we still did not believe Jesus to be GOD, or in hell fire, or in the immortality of the soul. Often the claim is that our bibles are different and made to support out beliefs but professors still would say our Bible is most closest to original scripts and most unbiased compared to well known ones like the kjv. Who am I to argue with professors… In short no I don’t believe that

I’m still not clear. So you do not believe that the non-Watchtowers are corrupted by the Devil and that they are the inerrant word of God?

 

[iohannes13]

And I said I have never seen any publication of ours teach or say that… I think it would be ironic for us to believe that because the new world translation was only created in 1961 which means that witnesses back then had to use other translations to go about there preaching and teaching work even then with those Bibles we still did not believe Jesus to be GOD, or in hell fire, or in the immortality of the soul. Often the claim is that our bibles are different and made to support out beliefs but professors still would say our Bible is most closest to original scripts and most unbiased compared to well known ones like the kjv. Who am I to argue with professors… In short no I don’t believe that

Chosen, don’t forget to give me a writing from Russell teaching that Jesus is St. Michael and that He should not be worshipped.

 

[iohannes13]

Who am I to argue with professors… In short no I don’t believe that

Chosen, Would you argue against Professors that claim the Bible is a fairytale?

 

[iohannes13]

Chosen,

These are still some of my questions that you haven’t answered.

1. I just want to be clear, do you believe that my non-Watchtower Bible is the inerrant word of God and has not been corrupted by el Chamuco (Satanas)?
2. Are you a cradle JW or a convert?
3. Who pays for the books that JWs hand out (the hard cover books)? Does the Watchtower give them to you for free to hand out?
4. What is your weekly quota (hours) to evangelize?
5. Does online evangelization count towards your weekly quota?
6. Why are you not one of the 144,000?
7. Would you argue against a Professor that writes that the Bible is a fairytale (there are plenty that do)?

I have a lot more questions but let’s resolve these first. Oh, and please don’t forget to provide me writings from Russell stating that Jesus is St. Michael and that he should not be worshipped.

 

[iohannes13]

I’m sorry Chosen, I missed one last question.

1. If we cease to exist at death, what is point of God bringing us back at the final judgement?

 

[iohannes13]

For decades, Jehovah’s Witnesses used, printed, and distributed various versions of the Bible. The reason we upgrade our Bible is because languages change over time, and many translations contain obscure or obsolete expressions that are difficult to understand - like for example we don’t speak English the way people in those days spoke like the Shakespearean English and words used then had different meanings to similar words used today, that’s the way the KJV Bible was written, so we translate it into the modern English language so that anyone who reads it will understand. Also, more ancient manuscripts that are more accurate and closer to the originals have been discovered, resulting in a better comprehension of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Doesn’t mean that we can’t use your Bible hence I asked you what Bible do you use so I can use it too, since we are bearers of God’s name we prefer using one that has not removed God’s name from it as most bibles have done.

Jason David BeDuhn, Ph.D. is an historian of religion and culture, currently Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University. Jason BeDuhn holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, an M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloomington.

Based on his analysis of nine major English translations, Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies, wrote: “The NW [New World Translation] emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.” Although the general public and many Bible scholars assume that the differences in the New World Translation are the result of religious bias on the part of its translators, BeDuhn stated: “Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation of the original expressions of the New Testament writers.”—Truth in Translation, pages 163, 165.
I like what he says and I quote

There are also many reviews about the book if you want to you can check it out I’ll provide the link - amazon.com/gp/aw/review/0761825568/R3E9J7CCXLY4W9/ref=cm_cr_dp_aw_rvw_2?ie=UTF8&cursor=2
One reviewer says and I quote

I don’t know much about that but I went through the book Jason BeDuhn wrote… Maybe you guys can do the same. I think that is why we can’t get to common ground on certain beliefs because of the translations.

Tsk Tsk Tsk Chosen. I’m very disappointed in you. Did you actually read this book or are you simply quoting what the Watchtower booklet told you? That author really likes the Catholic NAB version very much. Did you know that? He also wrote on page 165 “The NW and NAB are not bias free, and they are not perfect translations”. Incidentally, This quote starts the next paragraph following what you quoted from page 165.

 

[iohannes13]

Chosen,

Please answer my other questions and provide me the documents from Russell before we address this book and professor.

 

[iohannes13]

Chosen, your my guy or gal lol. If you want to talk about that book you recommended, I would like you to play a little game first that will highlight some things. It’s word association really. But it’s a small attempt to guage the nuance of perception and understanding. Deal? My first word is “virgen.” Don’t tell me the dictionary definition or some scriptural definition. Tell me what images and feelings this word triggers in you when you see it or hear it. Then I’ll tell you my side ok?

 

[ChosenOne7]

Chosen, don’t forget to give me a writing from Russell teaching that Jesus is St. Michael and that He should not be worshipped.

Alot of questions… I’ll try to deal with them as briefly as possible… With regards to CT Russell which is contrary to popular belief, he was the founder of Zion’s Watch Tower in 1879 and the Watch Tower Society in 1881. He was NOT the founder of Jehovah’s Witnesses nor of any of the current Russellite sects. After his death in 1916 many Bible Students did not want to support the new leadership, they wanted to stay frozen in time with only Russell’s teachings. Others, wanted to work with the new president and make changes, so in 1931 they embraced the new name Jehovah’s Witnesses.

He grew up in a Presbyterian church and was very religious, at 13 he left the church to join the congregational church. After having discussions with an acquaintance and being unable to defend both the Bible and Christianity, Russell began to question his faith. He briefly left the church, he then investigated various other religions, but concluded that they did not provide the answers he was seeking from the bible. Until age 18, when he attended a presentation by the Adventist preacher Jonas Wendell. It’s their where he started to renew his faith we can say, but also didn’t agree with some teachings and decided to leave an started a Bible study group. Russell had no intention of starting any new religions. he started a Bible Study group (made up of Adventists, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc) with the goal of studying what the Bible really taught. These men spent many hours studying the Bible together having the same goal, and not accepting anything as doctrine unless it was proved to be a teaching of the Bible.

They did not get everything correct. It is easy to say that from our viewpoint some 120 years later. They did many things we know today to be wrong from the Bible. It must be remembered by all that they were all coming out of many different religions. Since the Baptists believed in Jesus being Michael the archangel it could be here through their Bible study that Russell adopted that belief. Russell was considered to be a pastor at 25, he preached in streets and churches and many other places he then started getting followers who done the same it’s then when what is known today still the “Bible student movement” came into place. Joseph Franklin Rutherford became Russell’s successor, and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society that we still have today, although under the name coined by Rutherford, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who adopted that name long after Russells death in 1931 which by then many “Bible students” had already left the organization because after Russell died it’s like they were lost because they were under the impression they were going to heaven Russell died in 1916, although the Jehovah witnesses continued to use much of Russell’s teachings, they also dismissed a portion of them as incorrect. Hence you see some changes in belief from what Russell said, like before before they used to celebrate Christmas aswel up until 1919 after his death. Also remember that Russell could not touch on every topic in the Bible at the time he could only deal with the ones that the churchs was teaching them, like immortality of soul, the trinity, hell fire etc - our beliefs on that has not changed. Today a much smaller group, under the previously used name of Bible Students, continues to follow Russell’s teachings and to publish his works.
Today just like Russell we continue to do a deep thorough study of the Bible. As you study the Bible truth gets brighter, like you might read it now but only understand a meaning clearer years later as you grow older and more wiser in knowledge. God reveals things for us at the right time. And many who do that (study the Bible) today sometimes realise that what the Bible says and what is being taught does not link up. He was phenomenal because he did not just accept what he was taught.
Russell was challenged to a 6 day debate by E.L Eaton on the Bible infront of a large crowd he won all 6 days. Many of El Eaton’s members left his church because of that, he won other debates after that top. That is why church leaders hated him because he exposed many false teachings of them.
Today those groups that adopted some of Russells teachings still exist, many are not well known compared to JW’s that number well over 8.2 million today.

 

[iohannes13]

Since the Baptists believed in Jesus being Michael the archangel it could be here through their Bible study that Russell adopted that belief.

Also remember that Russell could not touch on every topic in the Bible at the time he could only deal with the ones that the churchs was teaching them, like immortality of soul, the trinity, hell fire etc - our beliefs on that has not changed.

Ok ,now thanks to this I have a lot more questions. But for now I’m only going to stick with what I asked for. So tell me truthfully, Are you or are you not going to provide me literature from Russell teaching that Jesus is St. Michael and that He should not be worshipped? The other day you said that you would provide me this literature but you havn’t?

Clearly, above you admit that Russell believed that Jesus is St Michael. As to the possibility of him not addressing that teaching in his literature because it may not have been a pressing issues or something like that? Really? You wrote that he would have focused on questions like the Trinity. Now how would he address the Trinity without mentioning that there is no Trinity because Jesus is St. Michael?

 

[ChosenOne7]

1. I just want to be clear, do you believe that my non-Watchtower Bible is the inerrant word of God and has not been corrupted by el Chamuco (Satanas)?

No bible today is inerrant, including ours we do not claim infallibility. We are all imperfect men. It’s like Jason BeDuhn said the NWT is “most accurate” he did not say it’s perfect.

1. Are you a cradle JW or a convert?

a cradle Jw. But I was not always always a follower of the faith or we can say I did not practise and agree to there teachings. I was confused as to which religion was the truth.y family consists of many different faiths, I would spend time and visit them all. I then too visited many other churches not in the family line, spent lots of time with Muslims went to the mosque for a while because I liked the way they were so devoted and followed everything which the old testament basically said. I really had a deep love to find truth I too did not accept this if not proven from the bible. But it’s only when I started to really really study the Bible that I could see the difference and things started making much sense to me, it’s then when I came back to the organisation. That’s why like many other JW’s today who have also really studied the Bible and do not just believe what is said you will find it hard to change there views because of that, most of the time the JW’s who leave the organisation is like me who grew up in it but didn’t take time to study the Bible and wasn’t happy and left. Not so often you hear a Muslim or Catholic or protestant come into the faith and then go back to there old beliefs.

1. Who pays for the books that JWs hand out (the hard cover books)? Does the Watchtower give them to you for free to hand out?

The simple answer to that is…No. There is not price tag on any literature or services Jehovah’s witnesses perform. If you want to donate, you can, it’s not asked for or required as some claim, this is simply not true. Some just like to know this information as they feel uncomfortable taking for free and want to. If you don’t want to, you still get the bible no obligation. Jehovah’s witnesses follow the principle found in the bible at: 2 Corinthians 9:7 - “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
For this reason, funds are Not solicited, No tithe, Nor are they asked for by way of a church plate at the meetings or by way of payment for any literature in any way shape or form. All we have in each hall is an anonymous box at the back for which those who want to give… can, no one knows who gave what, it is between them and God. Voluntary donations pay for any expenses incurred by Jehovah’s witnesses including literature. All witnesses value each piece of literature or bible and therefore do not take them for granted even if they don’t come with a price tag. As the entire organisation is made up of volunteers (including those who make the literature), it keeps the cost of producing such things as the New Edition of the New World Translation low.
I work with the literature and the books in the congregation, if people want any book and it’s available I give it to them. Free

 

[ChosenOne7]

1. What is your weekly quota (hours) to evangelize?

As a baptised witness you basically made the vow to live for God and not for yourself so it’s important that you follow Jesus example of preaching about God’s Kingdom.
There is no specific number of hours a publisher has to give, each of us must do what we can, God only what’s us to give our best. Some do 2 hours a week, others can do 10 it doesn’t matter. But as a baptised brother in the cong it’s important that we re visible in the ministry so as to be examples for others in the cong. But we go preaching out of love not because we have to - out of love for God an his commands since this the 1st commandment that we love God. And 2nd we do that for love of neighbor - regardless of the negative responses we get from them. We doing this for God and for them not for ourselves.

1. Does online evangelization count towards your weekly quota?

No it doesn’t. This is not one of our forms of preaching to people

1. Why are you not one of the 144,000?

That’s a good question. The apostle Paul, wrote: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (Romans 8:16, 17) The operation of God’s spirit changes the entire outlook of such a person, so that his thoughts and prayers are centered upon serving God with the heavenly hope in view. Being with Christ in heaven is more important to him than any earthly ties. I am not one of them because I have a string desire t live on earth forever as a perfect human. I want what Adam and Eve lost in the garden of eden. Those of the 144,000 do not have such a desire they have a desire to go to heaven.

Palms 37:29 - “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.”

1. Would you argue against a Professor that writes that the Bible is a fairytale (there are plenty that do)?

That’s like speaking to an atheist hey, they have so much knowledge in the Bible that they can easily quote verse that seems to be contradictory. Many of them came out of religion and left because they did not agree with the churches teachings and because the church could never answer there questions from the bible, even so there are people who are going to church that are confused and want answer that doesn’t leave. Just like I can preach to someone that studied theology and I didn’t I can still show him what the Bible says. So yes any Christian should be able to show a professor that the Bible is not a fairytale, and I feel I have too much knowledge in the Bible to just believe one like that

1. If we cease to exist at death, what is point of God bringing us back at the final judgement?

Jesus compared death to sleep… When his friend Lazarus died he said at John 11:11 - Then he said, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up.”
The apostles believed the same. Paul spoke of some who had died after Christ appeared to the 500 as “fallen asleep.” 1 Corinthians 15:6 - “After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.”
Paul shows that the only hope of their being delivered from this condition of having fallen asleep was the resurrection, and that, if there is no resurrection, then “they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.” (1 Corinthians 15:18) Paul had the hope of resurrection at Acts 24:15 he says - “I have the same hope in God as they themselves have that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.”
The resurrection is when one wakes up from that sleep(death). Same like when Jesus resurrected Lazarus from as he referred to it his sleep and brought him back to life

 

[truetofaith]

It looks like everybody dropped out of this JW confrontation!

 

[fhansen]

It looks like everybody dropped out of this JW confrontation!

Got kinda off topic and less interesting. JWs are just one more sola scriptura group that proves that the doctrine of SS is a joke. For that reason alone it doesn’t even matter which bible version one uses.

 

[ChosenOne7]

It looks like everybody dropped out of this JW confrontation!

I can’t see why you saying “JW confrontation” when I merely came to comment on this thread and was confronted by Sirach2 and Johannes. Did you not see all the questions they kept asking me about my beliefs and yet you still say JW confrontation. Lol. I have not questioned any of your Catholic beliefs, put yourself in my shoes for a change and think about how you would feel

 

[iohannes13]

I can’t see why you saying “JW confrontation” when I merely came to comment on this thread and was confronted by Sirach2 and Johannes. Did you not see all the questions they kept asking me about my beliefs and yet you still say JW confrontation. Lol. I have not questioned any of your Catholic beliefs, put yourself in my shoes for a change and think about how you would feel

It’s not a confrontation. But be fair Chosen, your posts on other topics show that you are not an innocent bystander at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[iohannes13]

No bible today is inerrant, including ours ……………… It’s like Jason BeDuhn said the NWT is “most accurate” he did not say it’s perfect.

So if no Bible is the inerrant Word of God, that means that they all contain errors? But the prophets and psalmists said, “Jehovah’s Word will last forever,” and (addressing Jehovah) “All your words are true.” This doesn’t apply to the Bible?

Let’s put professor BeDuhns quoted comments into context. The quotes that you provided from the book are combined to paint a picture that the NWT version is the best Bible. However, you didn’t mention that professor BeDuhn also endorsed the Catholic NAB version. So the quotes that you provided only tell half the story. Here are professor BeDuhn’s comments regarding the NAB version of the Bible on page 163 of his book, “Holding a close second to the NW in its accuracy, judging by the passages we have looked at, is the NAB. ………….Despite their distinctive doctrinal commitments, the translations managed to produce works relatively more accurate and less biased than the translations produced by multi-denominational teams, as well as those produced by single individuals.” Two pages later professor BeDuhn is still holding up the NAB version. On page 165 of his book, “The NW and NAB are not bias free, and they are not perfect translations.” Notice how he is holding up both the NW and NAB versions on par. And stating that they both contain bias and are not perfect means that that they contain mistranslations and errors.

Also, the professor cannot claim that the NW version is the most accurate among all the English version Bibles, as the quote is implying, because he did not test all the English version bibles. I counted over 30 different English versions of the Bible being issued since the year 2000. There must be hundreds of different English versions in existence that predate the year 2000. Professor BeDuhn only tested a total of eight or nine bibles. If he didn’t test them all, how can he possibly know and claim that the NWT is the “most accurate” of the entire population? So it stands that there can me a version “more accurate” by his measures than the ones that he compared. All he is claiming is that the NWT version is the “most accurate” among the eight or nine that were compared. But even this assertion does not elevate the NWT above the others. I’ll explain with an example.

The Car and Driver magazine reviews nine SUVs. The magazine editor finds that on average, eight of the nine SUVs compared give 11 miles per gallon. The magazine (per the editor) endorses the Ford model because it is the “most efficient” since it gives 15 miles per gallon. Does being labeled the “most efficient” elevate the Ford SUV above the rest and make it king? Technically, the editor is correct. The Ford model is the “most efficient” SUV among the ones that were compared. But in reality, it’s still an SUV. So by all measures it is still a wasteful and inefficient vehicle and in the end no better than any other SUV. In the final analysis, it is not worth the purchase. Just the same, if all the bibles contain bias mistranslations and errors, what makes one better than the other? They are still all wrong? [Jehovah] “All your words are true.”

Chosen, did you actually read the book by professor BeDuhn? I didn’t get the impression that you did based on what you wrote, “I went through the book Jason BeDuhn wrote.” That is not a positive affirmation that you read it. Did you simply flip through the pages and went straight to pages 163 and 165 to read the quotations that the Watchtower highlighted? Why didn’t you tell me that professor BeDuhn endorsed the Catholic NAB version in the book as well and only highlighted the endorsement for the NW version?

 

[iohannes13]

a cradle Jw.

Cool. Are you multilingual? If so what languages do you know?

I really had a deep love to find truth I too did not accept this if not proven from the bible.

I appreciate the closing remarks of the quote that you provided me from the “random” online customer endorsing professor BeDuhm’s book: “Of course, many will be disappointed by BeDunh because he proves that many of the famous Bible versions are inaccurate and mislead their readers.” You (or the Watchtower) held up this quote so it must hold some validity. Unfortunately, this comment does not exclude the Watchtower version of the Bible. Professor BeDuhn’s endorsement does not absolve the NW version of the Bible of its “imperfections.” Both you and he agree that the NW version contains bias, mistranslations, and errors just like the other eight or seven Bibles that were compared correct? So it stands that if the other eight or seven bibles are misleading people because of their “imperfections,” so is the NW version.

Please explain how then will you find the truth in and for it to be proven in the Bible if all the Bibles contain bias, mistranslations, and errors? How then do you know that what you are believing is Jehovah’s truth? How do you know that your beliefs are not being influenced by a mistranslated passage in the Bible because of some bias that translator had? How then do you know that another person’s belief that disagrees with yours is not Jehovah’s real truth? How then can you place your trust of salvation on a book that has errors, bias, and mistranslations and as a result may be misleading you away from Jehovah to the second death? Has the Watchtower ever taught anything that was later found to be scripturally incorrect?