How much did Mary know?

[DianaS]

I’m sorry if this is the wrong forum. Feel free to move it. I am reading Frank Sheed’s “To Know Christ Jesus” and he talks about how Mary may have discovered what Jesus would do and who He was. I was just wondering what the Catholic teaching on this is. I know we believe that she knew, but how early? Also, did Satan know how Redemption would be accomplished or was he trying to figure things out? I know that we can never know for sure and should not speculate but it has been bothering me and I just wanted to ask what everyone else thinks. Thanks for any and all responses!

 

[RobbyS]

I’m sorry if this is the wrong forum. Feel free to move it. I am reading Frank Sheed’s “To Know Christ Jesus” and he talks about how Mary may have discovered what Jesus would do and who He was. I was just wondering what the Catholic teaching on this is. I know we believe that she knew, but how early? Also, did Satan know how Redemption would be accomplished or was he trying to figure things out? I know that we can never know for sure and should not speculate but it has been bothering me and I just wanted to ask what everyone else thinks. Thanks for any and all responses!

Can’t speak to Church teaching, but it does raise the question how much We can know. Mary’s mind was certainly not clouded by sin as ours is. In Sheed’s book, he speculates that our lady read deeply in the Torah. If she was not merely a simple peasant woman but a daughter of a priestly family, as the story has it, then she was certainly capable of this, quite apart from her unique personal gifts.

 

[itinerant1]

I can’t cite any sources right now for my view, but I would go a step beyond what Sheed asserts about Mary’s knowledge.

Consider first that Adam and Eve in a state of Original Justice had preternatural gifts, which included infused knowledge (knowledge that was not the result of learning) . How much knowledge were they given? I can only say their infused knowledge was that which was appropriate for their state of existence.

Now, Mary was without Original Sin and chosen to be the Mother of God. Hence, her dignity, by the grace of God, was immensely superior to that of Adam and Eve, who had infused knowledge.

Accordingly, I believe Mary also had the special grace of infused knowledge. She was given all the knowledge that was necessary and appropriate for her most elevated state as the Mother of God. This does not mean she had the Beatific Vision on earth. But we should not underestimate Mary’s knowledge and wisdom, which I think Sheed, the eminent Catholic scholar may have done. This is not a criticism of Sheed by any means because we are dealing with an area that involves mostly speculation.

When was Mary given infused knowledge? I will say it was at the moment she consented to be the Mother of God.

Such are my personal speculations on the matter.

 

[itinerant1]

In regard to Satan’s knowledge of how Redemption would be accomplished, it appears that he was as a total loss to grasp what was happening. That is, in the Gospels we see Satan tempting Judas to betray Jesus to His would be executioners. Satan’s strategy to facilitate Christ’s execution was used by God to Redeem man by His suffering and death on the cross.

Hence, Satan’s strategy totally and irreparably backfired. It’s proof that God has a keen sense of humor.

The CIA have a word for when their plans go horribly wrong and backfire on them. It’s called “blowback”. Satan’s “blowback” spelled the beginning of the end of his dominion over the earth. I have to laugh whenever I think about the cosmic irony of it all.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they went with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. 17 And when they saw it they made known the saying which had been told them concerning this child; 18 and all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19* But Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.

Luke 2:15-20 It would appear that Mary knew much, and learned much more reflecting on what she observed.

 

[Brendan]

Even without infused knowledge, Mary, untainted by Original Sin, would have had a clearer intellect.

Each of the powers of the soul, animation, will and intellect were damaged by original sin. We see corruption of the animative powers of the soul in sickness and death. The corruption of the will we see in concupiscience.

The intellect is damaged in the way we percieve and understand God, especially through prophecy.

An uncorrupted intellect would have enabled her to read the Messianic prophecies more clearly that the rest of us. So, being told that she would bear the Christ, she would have understood that a.) he would be the Son of the Living God b.) would have to suffer a horific death to redeem us c that He would rise to save us.

The specifics of the death and the timing, she probably would not have know (absent infused knowledge). But that all those would happen would have been clear to her.

 

[itinerant1]

Even without infused knowledge, Mary, untainted by Original Sin, would have had a clearer intellect.

Each of the powers of the soul, animation, will and intellect were damaged by original sin. We see corruption of the animative powers of the soul in sickness and death. The corruption of the will we see in concupiscience.

The intellect is damaged in the way we percieve and understand God, especially through prophecy.

An uncorrupted intellect would have enabled her to read the Messianic prophecies more clearly that the rest of us. So, being told that she would bear the Christ, she would have understood that a.) he would be the Son of the Living God b.) would have to suffer a horific death to redeem us c that He would rise to save us.

The specifics of the death and the timing, she probably would not have know (absent infused knowledge). But that all those would happen would have been clear to her.

Sounds good!

 

[RosaryFan]

I’m sorry if this is the wrong forum. Feel free to move it. I am reading Frank Sheed’s “To Know Christ Jesus” and he talks about how Mary may have discovered what Jesus would do and who He was. I was just wondering what the Catholic teaching on this is. I know we believe that she knew, but how early? Also, did Satan know how Redemption would be accomplished or was he trying to figure things out? I know that we can never know for sure and should not speculate but it has been bothering me and I just wanted to ask what everyone else thinks. Thanks for any and all responses!

Hi.

Mary definitely knew of the impending suffering of Jesus, as well as her own suffering along with Hiim. If you are familiar with Our Lady’s Seven Sorrows, you see her sorrow began almost immediately after Jesus’ birth. I’m sure during her flight into Egypt, she could have surmised that she was in for a life of hardship and sadness and a life of fighting against the evil that wanted so desperately to overcome her and her Son. At The Presentation of Our Lord, Simeon sealed her fate by revealing to her the sufferings she and Our Lord would ultimately endure. That is all scriptural. “…and thine own heart a sword shall pierce.” (Luke 2:35)

It has been theorized that satan did know how redemption would be accomplished and that knowledge was a contributing factor of his falling from grace. Again, this is just a theory. Satan’s pride and arrogance did not allow him to accept God’s plan of salvation which would have included satan having to bow down to “a mere human”.

 

[itinerant1]

It has been theorized that satan did know how redemption would be accomplished and that knowledge was a contributing factor of his falling from grace.

Hi RosaryFan,
I must take a contrary view in regard to your statements.

First, I do not know of anyone who has theorized that Satan’s alleged knowledge of the plan of Redemption was a contributing factor in his fall from grace.

Second, I can think of no reasonable explanation as to why any such knowledge regarding Redemption would be a contributing factor to Satan’s fall.

Third, there is no reason to believe or speculate that Satan was given fore-knowledge of the Redemption.

Again, this is just a theory. Satan’s pride and arrogance did not allow him to accept God’s plan of salvation which would have included satan having to bow down to “a mere human”.

On the contrary, God’s plan of salvation does not entail anyone, angel or human, bowing down to “a mere human,” simply because Christ, as we know, is no “mere human.”

Also, there is no reason to beleive that Satan, at any time, had any accurate knowledge concerning the plan of Redemption. Obviously, Satan is not God. He is not omniscient or infallible and so he does not know everything. He make mistakes.

Accordingly, St. Thomas Aquinas said,

“The minds of demons are utterly perverted from the divine wisdom; they at times form their opinion of things simply according to the natural conditions of the same. Nor are they ever deceived as to the natural properties of anything, but they can be misled with regard to supernatural matters. For example, on seeing a dead man they may suppose that he will not rise again, or, on beholding Christ, they may judge him not to be God.” (Summa Theologica; 1:58:5)

 

[RosaryFan]

Hi RosaryFan,
I must take a contrary view in regard to your statements.

First, I do not know of anyone who has theorized that Satan’s alleged knowledge of the plan of Redemption was a contributing factor in his fall from grace.

Second, I can think of no reasonable explanation as to why any such knowledge regarding Redemption would be a contributing factor to Satan’s fall.

Third, there is no reason to believe or speculate that Satan was given fore-knowledge of the Redemption.

On the contrary, God’s plan of salvation does not entail anyone, angel or human, bowing down to “a mere human,” simply because Christ, as we know, is no “mere human.”

Also, there is no reason to beleive that Satan, at any time, had any accurate knowledge concerning the plan of Redemption. Obviously, Satan is not God. He is not omniscient or infallible and so he does not know everything. He make mistakes.

Accordingly, St. Thomas Aquinas said,

“The minds of demons are utterly perverted from the divine wisdom; they at times form their opinion of things simply according to the natural conditions of the same. Nor are they ever deceived as to the natural properties of anything, but they can be misled with regard to supernatural matters. For example, on seeing a dead man they may suppose that he will not rise again, or, on beholding Christ, they may judge him not to be God.” (Summa Theologica; 1:58:5)

I said this is a “theory” - not mine. Just one I’ve heard on several occasions in the past. I’ve heard a talk about this on our local Catholic radio program, as well as have heard priests explain the “theory”. I can assure you I did not make this up. The theory is out there.

Why do you find this hard to swallow? God could have very easily revealed to the angels (before they fell from grace) as much as He wanted to. Satan was considered the most intelligent of the angels, so God could have revealed His plan to him.

I think it makes perfect sense. Is there a better way to explain how satan’s arrogance and pride could have caused his fall?

And, the “mere human” to whom I was referring is Mary.

 

[itinerant1]

I said this is a “theory” - not mine. Just one I’ve heard on several occasions in the past. I’ve heard a talk about this on our local Catholic radio program, as well as have heard priests explain the “theory”. I can assure you I did not make this up. The theory is out there.

Why do you find this hard to swallow? God could have very easily revealed to the angels (before they fell from grace) as much as He wanted to. Satan was considered the most intelligent of the angels, so God could have revealed His plan to him.

I think it makes perfect sense. Is there a better way to explain how satan’s arrogance and pride could have caused his fall?

And, the “mere human” to whom I was referring is Mary.

Thanks for correcting my misinterpretation about the “mere human”.

This particular speculation about Satan’s knowledge is completely new to me. I never suspected that it originated with you, but I have never come across it in the writings of the Church Fathers or Doctors. I did not give all of my reasons for objecting to it, yet I could seriously consider the theory if it was addressed approvingly by a reputable Church theologian or one of the Saints. Let me know if you come across such a reference. Despite my objecting, I am glad to hear an idea that is new to me. So, I am pleased that you mentioned it. Thanks.