How much disagreement does the church tolerate?

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Hello all,

[Disclaimer: I’m a newbie! Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum, or if this is a subject that we’re not allowed to discuss on CAF.]

Leaving our personal opinions aside, I’m wondering how much one can be in disagreement with the church regarding social issues and still be Catholic?

For the sake of conversation let’s use the example of someone who believes that same sex partners should be extended the same legal rights of married couples outside of the church. Or a person who votes for a liberal candidate who, in their opinion is superior in all other regards to the conservative candidate, but is pro-choice. (One of the priests at our parish equated voting for Obama to committing mortal sin. I’m only just now beginning RCIA and have no prior experience with Christianity at all, so I don’t know if this is in line with church teaching or not, just commenting.)

I’m not going to comment on whether these are my personal beliefs or not and I do respectfully request that this doesn’t turn into a post aimed at “convincing me” that I’m wrong, since my personal beliefs are currently undergoing an upheaval all across the board since taking the first steps towards joining the church. But I am and always have been very curious about the subject on an intellectual level. What does it mean to be Catholic anyway, at it’s most basic level?

Charitable responses are much appreciated! 😃
 
Hello all,

[Disclaimer: I’m a newbie! Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum, or if this is a subject that we’re not allowed to discuss on CAF.]

Leaving our personal opinions aside, I’m wondering how much one can be in disagreement with the church regarding social issues and still be Catholic?

For the sake of conversation let’s use the example of someone who believes that same sex partners should be extended the same legal rights of married couples outside of the church. Or a person who votes for a liberal candidate who, in their opinion is superior in all other regards to the conservative candidate, but is pro-choice. (One of the priests at our parish equated voting for Obama to committing mortal sin. I’m only just now beginning RCIA and have no prior experience with Christianity at all, so I don’t know if this is in line with church teaching or not, just commenting.)

I’m not going to comment on whether these are my personal beliefs or not and I do respectfully request that this doesn’t turn into a post aimed at “convincing me” that I’m wrong, since my personal beliefs are currently undergoing an upheaval all across the board since taking the first steps towards joining the church. But I am and always have been very curious about the subject on an intellectual level. What does it mean to be Catholic anyway, at it’s most basic level?

Charitable responses are much appreciated! 😃
I have experienced such dilemmas personally. A few years back I was an atheist and had very liberal views on pretty much everything. I can only tell you my experience and you should attach no validity to it other than treating it as the opinion of one very badly educated Catholic.

In my view there are very few people who start out holding one set of values at 9pm on Monday morning and then suddenly accept the entirety of a new world view by close of business one the same day.

My own experience is that I became a Catholic gradually. It started with a sense that something was seriously missing. The first pieces to fall into place were the basic articles of faith- the existence of God, the fact that Jesus was the Son of God, the power of the Gospel message, the need to pray and have God in my life, the realization that I had sinned in some truly awful ways and needed to be forgiven for what I had done, and that the Holy Spirit through the Church could change my life.

Once the basic parts of the faith were established, some of the other issues became easier to resolve, and I gradually grew to accept them. But honestly, I still don’t fully believe the Church’s position on absolutely everything. I don’t put that down to some massive personal deficiency though- if I just automatically and without reflection believed something just because a priest told me, I would be an idiot and I would be exactly the kind of mindless automaton that atheists like to portray believers as being.

So what do I do? Am I still a Catholic? You bet I am- an imperfect Catholic, but better to be an imperfect Catholic who longs to have his heart opened to the truth, than someone who thinks he knows everything and is not prepared to listen to others. On the areas that I am still not sure of, I have the following attitude: I recognize that faith is a process, I study the questions as best I can, i discuss them with good Spiritual companions, I pray that God will enlighten me, and I hope He at least gives marks for effort. In the meantime I do not speak against the teaching of the Church, and I treat my doubts as part of my growth in the Faith.

I have to say that this approach is working for me. So far I have seen the truth and the justice in what the Church teaches on many issues that I was previously dead set against. I used to be pro-choice, but not any more; I used to think that divorce was no big deal, but now I see that position as having stemmed from failing to understand what marriage was about to begin with; and I used to think that contraception was a wonderful thing until I realized that it reduced the sexual act to a form of enhanced masturbation, and made sex so free of consequence that when there was an actual consequence- a child- the likelihood of either party behaving like a parent was much reduced. This was a gradual development, and came only after much reflection and prayer.

There are still things I don’t get or understand but compared to the joy and meaning that my Faith has brought me, they don’t seem like major issues any more. So while I might struggle with them, I don’t reject the teaching- I just acknowledge that I have yet to fully grasp the reasoning behind the teaching. But doubts are normal. The trick is not to let them become a barrier and not to be so proud as to insist that I have all the answers.

As for what it means to be a Catholic, don’t sweat it because before one is a Catholic, one must become a Catholic, and that takes time, prayer, and the grace of God. If I were you, I would focus on the basics, and pray that God will lead you to embrace the fullness of the truth, as He appears to be slowly doing for me. The Apostles Creed is a good checklist- I believe every line of it, and I think that allows me to roughly describe myself as a Catholic, even if I am not a very good one.
 
hank3fan, wow. Thank you for that well thought out and eloquently written response! I especially appreciate how you dealt with your doubts and I’ll keep your story in mind as I deal with my own.

Thanks!!
 
the important thing for me as an almost-Catholic is to learn about the things that oppose the Church’s teachings in a negative way, and try to live by these teachings.

However, there still can be things a disagree with. I am, for instance, an animal lover, so I am more strict about what is righteous to do to animals. The church finds it justified for experiments tested on animals, for the sake of the human being. I personally don’t. But I don’t find oppose the Church in a negative sense I guess. One could say ‘with testing on animals, one could save human lives’. But I don’t see why animals have to be in a potential harm for that, we are responsible for our own ideas and creations. Does all of this make me less Catholic? Definately not, I believe in the deepest of my heart the teaching of the Church, as they are also described in the Bible. I don’t see why any of the church teachers wouldn’t tolerate my love for animals, just as long as I don’t put them above human beings. We are responsible for ourselves without harming ANY other beings just for testing, I guess. That is however different from the promise that animals are our food, that’s why I have no problem with that.
 
Great question, and really great answers! Thanks!
My musing (but this is a serious question) has led me to think that you are Catholic if you’ve at least been baptized and then raised Catholic or come to accept Catholicism.
Then, you remain Catholic for as long as you say so, and the Church doesn’t excommunicate you, or there isn’t some official announcement saying, “Get out!” or “Go away!” But then again, maybe you are not that “important,” you just happen to stay under the radar, and no one really bothers. I think many Catholics are like that.
But definitely an honest effort to understand the Faith, and to be authentic in your faith is critical. Other than that, it is hypocritical.
Where there is dissent with Church dogma, hopefully we can still maintain love and respect for one another, keep dialogue going, and continue to feed on whatever it is that is so satisfying about our Catholic Faith.
 
There have been some good answers so far. I’d like to comment on the specific examples you’ve offered because I think they are good ones and I have a point I’d like to make about them … a point that may or may not be shared by some of my self-proclaimed “orthodox” Catholics. First, the Church does teach that once you are baptized Catholic, or accepted into the Catholic faith after a valid baptism elsewhere, you are a Catholic until you die. That is regardless of excommunication OR renouncing the faith. You cannot un-Catholic. Now Catholics like to rate each other and themselves and give them various “pet names” depending on their assumed allegiance to Catholic teachings, but all such distinctions are artificial and the names are personal and not official.

As for politics, others will vehemently disagree with me, but I speak from a position of personal experience in politics, having been elected to county precinct position, on the ballot and all, endorsed by the conservative faction of the Kansas Republican Party, the Kansas Republican Assembly – as opposed to the “GOP Club” which are the more liberal Republicans. I was and still am pro-life, but my eyes were opened as to the dualistic mentality that politics demands and after meeting these people face to face I’ve determined there are a few really good and effective pro-lifers but there are two other kinds, too – the kind where they are faking it, and the kind where they are zealously pro-life but not politically prudent so they don’t end up saving any babies. In fact, in Kansas, the staunch pro-lifers failed to take the chances they had to save at least a few babies at the late infamous Dr. George Tiller’s in Wichita, and I place the blame squarely on them. Even though they blamed the moderates, the fact is the moderate governor promised to sign a late-term abortion bill for Kansas, but the staunch “non-negotiating” pro-lifers refused to pass it with an exception for the mother’s health, so nothing got signed and no babies were saved. The pro-lifers screamed about the “moderates” being anti-life for insisting on an exception which would surely be abused. I told some of them personally, to their faces, that they had better take what they have because incrementalism is how we lost the liberal battle and we can gain it back if we don’t put ideological obstacles in front of ourselves and insist we change everything in one fell swoop or nothing at all. But they didn’t listen to me, because their political strategy was set. They seemed to be more eager to villianize the moderates than they were to save babies. It angers them for me to say that, but it’s true and then of course we got a liberal Democratic governor after that – so no babies were saved until some wacko shot Tiller in the head at his church. Then babies were saved. So my point is that voting pro-life does not necessarily mean babies will be saved.

I personally voted for a pro-choice candidate (Dan Glickman) once, because I met his ostensibly “pro-life” opponent, Roger Grund, at a tax protest event. The man was so thoroughly evil and deceitful it made my skin crawl. He spouted out various ideals, including pro-life, and talked about lowering taxes and other conservative planks. He agreed to handle getting the press out to the federal building during our protest, but instead staged an event for himself that was unrelated to the tax protest effort but he told the press it was related, to get them there. Then, finally since a few media had found out on their own about the protest and still showed up at the federal building, Roger showed up near the end – he went wherever there were microphones and cameras. He was the slimiest, nastiest, above and beyond the stereotype of a dishonest politician. Well, I voted against him. Lucky for our country he died soon after that election. He wasn’t that old, either.

So I’m trying to make the point the politics is not what it seems. Because a candidate is listed under the “pro-life” voter’s guide, doesn’t mean that a vote for that candidate will save babies. Sometimes a vote for moderates rather than “non-negotiable” conservatives is actually life-saving. So I reject that we have a Catholic obligation under penalty of mortal sin, to vote for any particular candidate who claims to be 100% pro-life. If other things are equal or even nearly equal, then sure vote pro-life. But I think it’s evil for Church leaders to bind the people against voting for any particular candidate or voting against another one. And I have no apologies at all after seeing babies die due to the silly behavior of some staunch pro-lifers – even though I told some of them to their faces their strategy would fail. I’d much rather save babies than have a badge that I’m a 100% “non-negotiable” pro-lifer.

Overall, there are few things I disagree with the Church on, and frankly I doubt even the Church teaches it is a mortal sin to vote for a candidate when there was a “more pro-life” alternative. You don’t know what you’re getting in politics. If the Church teaches that, then I reserve the right not to take her advice. When I answer to God for the babies I did or did not save, I don’t suppose the Church is going to be standing there next to me so I can point to them, so I better do what I personally believe is right.

To give you an example of a view you don’t hear much on the “front lines,” I offer you Fr. Richard Rohr’s “What did Jesus Really Teach?” video clip. He’s a Franciscan, which is one strike against him, and he although I don’t know exactly what he says about gays, he’s purported to support acceptance of gays. Anyway suffice it to say he is called heretical and new age and worse, so I’m not trying to have a discussion about him. I offer this as an example of how varied Catholic leaders are.

Alan
 
We all start out with our own thoughts on how things should be, but if we dig into the teachings of the faith, and the New Testament, we encounter great wisdom! In many ways the Church has to develop a new language to express the widom of God it is so far above how we think. Each challenge I brought to the Church, investigated her wisdom, and left converted. It may take a while, but if a person is willing to read, listen to talks, you leave truely enlightened! The Catholic Church always considers all of Scripture, and all of Jesus’ oral teachings, and Sacred Tradition. 2000 years of learning! We can’t compete with that, but we can learn a lot in a short amount of time.

I’ve been Catholic 53 years now, and EVERY time I’ve challenged the Church, thinking…that can’t be right! Every time I’ve studied it from all sides, the Church is right! She truely is led by the Holy Spirit!
 
I’m not going to comment on whether these are my personal beliefs or not and I do respectfully request that this doesn’t turn into a post aimed at “convincing me” that I’m wrong, since my personal beliefs are currently undergoing an upheaval all across the board since taking the first steps towards joining the church. But I am and always have been very curious about the subject on an intellectual level. What does it mean to be Catholic anyway, at it’s most basic level?

Charitable responses are much appreciated! 😃
I think at it’s most basic level, being a Catholic means to have Faith.

Many Christians say exactly that, but they don’t understand what I mean, every other denomination doesn’t test your faith like the Catholic Church does.

All other forms of Christianty can claim that they have faith without it being tested, but a Catholic must have faith to believe in the eucharist, because the eucharist requires faith at every mass, nobody can accept the truth or recieve the gifts of the eucharist without faith.

The eucharist is where the bread and wine is the flesh and blood of Christ … literally!

Many Catholics are even ignorant of this because they don’t have faith, but it’s the absolute truth and only those with faith will recieve the gifts of the eucharist.

This is why other denominations claim that Catholics are going to hell, and when Jesus mentions it in the Gospels, the disciples say “this is too hard for anyone to understand” and this is where many of Jesus followers leave him in John’s Gospel.

Please watch this short documentry called “Signs From God” by a famous Australian reporter “Mike Willisee”, in which they set out to test the faith, in which “Catalina Rivas” recieves messages from Jesus written down in many of her books that really show the importance of the eucharist, something so unique to the Catholic Church yet so valuable.

Anyway, her short books on the eucharist, my favourite being “In Adoration” and “The Holy Mass” including the video are all free to watch and read online here -

Link - youshallbelieve.com/?page_id=70

They also show a miracle where the consecrated bread (eucharist) over a few days literally turned into flesh and blood in which was sent off to a lab without explanation to be tested.

Anyway it really is quite something.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
We all start out with our own thoughts on how things should be, but if we dig into the teachings of the faith, and the New Testament, we encounter great wisdom! In many ways the Church has to develop a new language to express the widom of God it is so far above how we think. Each challenge I brought to the Church, investigated her wisdom, and left converted. It may take a while, but if a person is willing to read, listen to talks, you leave truely enlightened! The Catholic Church always considers all of Scripture, and all of Jesus’ oral teachings, and Sacred Tradition. 2000 years of learning! We can’t compete with that, but we can learn a lot in a short amount of time.

I’ve been Catholic 53 years now, and EVERY time I’ve challenged the Church, thinking…that can’t be right! Every time I’ve studied it from all sides, the Church is right! She truely is led by the Holy Spirit!
I like the way you say this. You receive wisdom from God that is above human description, and that’s pretty hard to find.

I’m a cradle Catholic of 54 years now, and since I got into CAF 8-ish years ago, I have found that to be my experience, too. The vast majority of the time when I dig into something I find the Church ultimately has all the bases covered.

The real trick is to find out what the Church actually DOES teach, not what everybody seems to say it does – including those who seem very scholarly and adamant, just like modern day lawyers and Pharisees. Those posters are all around us, and I think there is even a little of that in most of us – our ego likes to think we know something. (Ref. 1 Cor 8:2) I can have several “gang up” on me and insist I’m wrong even, about something that in my heart just doesn’t make sense their way, and still find out that no, what they are saying isn’t precisely what the Church teaches. (Then once I found out that some posters actually PM each other to come to this or that thread to support them against me or whomever says what They Don’t Like – which is part of the reason it seems “everybody” is saying it.) For example, there were a few posters who would do everything they could to convince a person that they weren’t truly Catholic if they didn’t hold to certain standards provided by those posters, by writing very carefully worded statements that could technically be true if considered in just the right context, but were absolutely misleading. I remember one in particular finally admitted, with no shame, that they understand the Church teachings but they disagree with it because they didn’t think you were truly Catholic if you didn’t toe their line. And that poster kept doing it even after admitting to it.

Another place you’ll see it has to do with the Old Testament, and Genesis in particular. My children were all taught in their conservative Catholic high school that the Church teaches Genesis is intended to be taken figuratively. From others I’ve gathered (hopefully correctly) that the Catholic Church does not require us to believe in a literal translation. For example, the world created in six literal, 24-hour days. There are posters who will say you can’t be truly Catholic or even Christian without believing this – again not what the Church teaches. So just because somebody is adamant about what they are saying doesn’t mean the Church teaches that.

For myself, I reserve the right to have my own opinions, but they are just that, opinions. But I will state them as my personal opinions. (however well-informed ;D) I will not knowingly claim that the Church teaches what I say unless I truly believe she does. And even then, I might be wrong.

Alan
 
Hello all,

For the sake of conversation let’s use the example of someone who believes that same sex partners should be extended the same legal rights of married couples outside of the church. Or a person who votes for a liberal candidate who, in their opinion is superior in all other regards to the conservative candidate, but is pro-choice. (One of the priests at our parish equated voting for Obama to committing mortal sin. I’m only just now beginning RCIA and have no prior experience with Christianity at all, so I don’t know if this is in line with church teaching or not, just commenting.)

Charitable responses are much appreciated! 😃
One of the things that annoys me about Christianity/politics in its current form is that both parties tend to ignore the whole gospel of Christ.

In general, liberal Christians don’t talk much about sin, opting to focus on the social gospel (loving your neighbor/helping the poor). Conservative Christians tend to focus more on sin and getting people to repent. Neither side seems to realize that the Jesus thinks both pieces are equally important.

I think that AlanfromWitchita made good points about the pro-life/pro-choice issue, so I’m not going to add much to that. I’m also involved in politics (in Michigan) and a lot of times, people are saying what they need to say to get elected. It’s not like they actually believe. In some parts of my state, there’s just no way someone would get elected if they said they were a Dem or an Rep, so they become a member of the dominant party, just to advance their career.

I have Catholic friends on all sides of the political spectrum and they will tell you that faith informs their politics. I have friends who are 100% pro-life and will never vote for a pro-choicer - ever. I have friends are 100% political Liberals and Catholicism is a huge part of their lives as well.

Also, Hank3fan gave the best answer about being a Catholic.
 
Hello all,

[Disclaimer: I’m a newbie! Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum, or if this is a subject that we’re not allowed to discuss on CAF.]

Leaving our personal opinions aside, I’m wondering how much one can be in disagreement with the church regarding social issues and still be Catholic?

For the sake of conversation let’s use the example of someone who believes that same sex partners should be extended the same legal rights of married couples outside of the church. Or a person who votes for a liberal candidate who, in their opinion is superior in all other regards to the conservative candidate, but is pro-choice. (One of the priests at our parish equated voting for Obama to committing mortal sin. I’m only just now beginning RCIA and have no prior experience with Christianity at all, so I don’t know if this is in line with church teaching or not, just commenting.)

I’m not going to comment on whether these are my personal beliefs or not and I do respectfully request that this doesn’t turn into a post aimed at “convincing me” that I’m wrong, since my personal beliefs are currently undergoing an upheaval all across the board since taking the first steps towards joining the church. But I am and always have been very curious about the subject on an intellectual level. What does it mean to be Catholic anyway, at it’s most basic level?

Charitable responses are much appreciated! 😃
Welcome to this forum!

During my years as a Catholic, I met Catholics all along the political spectrum. They all considered themselves part of the Church. Some of them disagreed with Church doctrine regarding birth control, women priests, etc and some agreed with the doctrine. I met two people who told me they wanted to change the Church from within, so they had stayed Catholic.
 
Hi AllEars,

To me what is most important is finding a Church in which we can grow in faith and understanding. If we always had to agree with everything a church said then we might either find ourselves moving around as we explored different views or we might never find a church that matched us well enough.

One of the vows that Benedictine monks make is a vow of stability - to stay in a particular monastery. That doesn’t mean that they are going to agree with everything everyone else thinks and says, but that they agree to abide by the rules and work out their faith in that one community. I think there is an awful lot to be said for that vow of stability. I heard a Rabbi, Rabbi Lionel Blue, also say “we all need a spiritual home, but not a spiritual prison”, and that rang true for me as well. For me the Catholic Church is very much my home but I’m happy to go and look into other people’s back gardens as well (I’m just about to start reading a book on Jainism; I’m interested in seeing what I can learn from peering over their fence).

I heard a recent interview with the previous Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. He said he was drawn to both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches but in the end decided to work out his faith where he was - in the Anglican Communion. I suspect he was influence by the desert fathers, who he knows well, who also emphasized the importance of stability.

God bless you on your journey +
 
I noticed that there are alot of people who are becoming Catholics on this thread, that is why I hope you or anyone else will take just 30 minutes out of a day to watch this short documantry called “Signs From God” found online free to watch here -

youshallbelieve.com/?page_id=70

It truly is amazing, words really can’t tell you how incedible this documantry and Catalina Rivas’s short books really are.

I apologise, I am only emphasising this because I wish that I myself had known and seen these things before I had started taking the eucharist at mass, because even I had not fully grasped the incredible importance of the eucharist we recieve as Catholics at every Catholic mass.

I hope that this video and short books will be as valuable to you as they were to me, in which have changed my life and helped me grow in enourmous ways.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
hank3fan, wow. Thank you for that well thought out and eloquently written response! I especially appreciate how you dealt with your doubts and I’ll keep your story in mind as I deal with my own.

Thanks!!
No problem:🙂
 
I personally voted for a pro-choice candidate (Dan Glickman) once, because I met his ostensibly “pro-life” opponent, Roger Grund, at a tax protest event. The man was so thoroughly evil and deceitful it made my skin crawl. He spouted out various ideals, including pro-life, and talked about lowering taxes and other conservative planks. He agreed to handle getting the press out to the federal building during our protest, but instead staged an event for himself that was unrelated to the tax protest effort but he told the press it was related, to get them there. Then, finally since a few media had found out on their own about the protest and still showed up at the federal building, Roger showed up near the end – he went wherever there were microphones and cameras. He was the slimiest, nastiest, above and beyond the stereotype of a dishonest politician. Well, I voted against him. Lucky for our country he died soon after that election. He wasn’t that old, either.

So I’m trying to make the point the politics is not what it seems. Because a candidate is listed under the “pro-life” voter’s guide, doesn’t mean that a vote for that candidate will save babies. Sometimes a vote for moderates rather than “non-negotiable” conservatives is actually life-saving. So I reject that we have a Catholic obligation under penalty of mortal sin, to vote for any particular candidate who claims to be 100% pro-life. If other things are equal or even nearly equal, then sure vote pro-life. But I think it’s evil for Church leaders to bind the people against voting for any particular candidate or voting against another one. And I have no apologies at all after seeing babies die due to the silly behavior of some staunch pro-lifers – even though I told some of them to their faces their strategy would fail. I’d much rather save babies than have a badge that I’m a 100% “non-negotiable” pro-lifer.

Overall, there are few things I disagree with the Church on, and frankly I doubt even the Church teaches it is a mortal sin to vote for a candidate when there was a “more pro-life” alternative. You don’t know what you’re getting in politics. If the Church teaches that, then I reserve the right not to take her advice. When I answer to God for the babies I did or did not save, I don’t suppose the Church is going to be standing there next to me so I can point to them, so I better do what I personally believe is right.

Alan
I can’t even say how much I agree with this…but on the other hand, its hard to argue that Church teaching supports absolutist approaches to everything - for example, if you can’t perform anything like a direct abortion even if it was 100% certain the child will die and even if it is 100% certain that the mother will die if you do nothing. Oh, you can accidently kill the child while performing an emergency hysterectomy because of some kind of cancer - but if you’re not in a situation where the double effect comes into play, you just have to let the mother die. So if such absolutist logic has to apply, that we have to allow the huge evil of the mother’s death for what amounts to semantics, I can see why those people would think that way. If you think about it, from that perspective, the number of real babies saved is irrelevant, since that would be consequentialist ethics.

It’s this sort of thing that keeps me up at night. Among all the things that makes me seriously consider leaving the Church, this has got to be in the top three.
 
One has to distinguish between disagreement vs. dissent, between private and public, between matters on which there has been definitive, binding teaching (and depending on the scope of that instruction, whether general or specific).

There are many issues and concepts on which the Church has not voiced any official position,even so much as a suggestion. Until the Church does (on that matter), the Catholic is free to hold whatever personal viewpoint he or she wishes, without scruples. That includes if the Pope himself merely makes a comment about something in the news, and that comment is merely a reflection or an observation. Hopefully, we would respect what he says, but we are not bound by it.

There are other matters in which informal discussion has occurred. Included in this would be individual statements of Cardinals, bishops, priests, and lay theologians, which are their acknowledged interpretations of unsettled, non-binding Catholic thought, or their personal suggestions about the manner in which to study Catholicism, the manner in which to pray, etc. That would also include matters of spirituality – an individual’s personal interpretation of a Saint’s approach to prayer. And in the civil realm it would include an indivdual’s personal interpretation of the harm a particular legislative bill might cause in a specific social justice area but the effects of which are not yet clear.

Then there is the vast and codified area of moral doctrine and theological dogma. There really is no obstinate disagreement allowed in these areas. We human beings are prone to doubt, particularly about unseen matters. That’s natural and certainly not sinful, let alone “not allowed,” LOL.

I think a good distinction between disagreement and dissent was laid out by a religious brother who is a CAF member, and who spoke about it here. Regarding (again) moral law, we have no choice as faithful Catholics but to engage our wills to comply with the Magisterium, even if our emotions resist that and we cannot honestly express enthusiasm. The Catechism is not a group of opinions or suggestions, when it deals with moral truths:
moral law is objective, not subjective. The key word is “submit.”
A Catholic can be internally conflicted about a moral law, but at the very least it is required that he try to conform to that moral law no matter how he “feels” about it, no matter what his “opinion” is.

Regarding a different category – not moral absolutes but discipline and practice, here is what Brother JR said:
I do not like female altar servers. That’s my opinion. The Church says that they may be used. I have no authority to tell others that female altar servers are wrong. I must submit to what the Church says. The Church says that girls can be altar servers. She has not said that I have to like it.

On the other hand, prudence tells me that I don’t share this opinion too widely, because someone is going to quote it and try to use it against the Church.

If I express this opinion on my blog, on CAF, in my lectures, in my classes, in every conversation, then it’s no longer just a disagreement. It’s dissent. I know the law regarding this subject. I have no right to undermine the law or to try to upstage the hierarchy with my superior knowledge of what should and should not be.

Can you see the difference between dissent and difference of opinion?
It is one thing to disagree with a prudential decision of the hierarchy. It is quite another to teach what one believes and suggest that others adopt it in place of what the hierarchy has to say. To do the latter goes beyond having an opinion. It is dissent.

In the constitutions of my community, we have a clause that protects the brothers from falling into dissent. It’s a long clause, but basically it says that no brother is ever allowed to publicly express any opinion or say anything that is contrary to what the bishop or the Holy Father says. It does not say that the brother has to agree. It simply says that he keeps his opinions out of the public sector. Then the clause continues to command the brothers to put distance between themselves and their opinions in favor of those expressed by the hierarchy. That’s the second part of this deal. This is the assent.

There are different kinds of assent. All Catholics have a moral duty to assent to lawful authority, regardless of one’s opinion…The Holy Father is trying to help his audience discriminate between lawful authority and unlawful authority. A person or group that expresses an opinion which they do not have the right to express is an unlawful authority. Anyone can have an opinion, but no one can state his opinion as authoritative, unless it’s consistent with that of the Pope and bishops.
 
I also want to elaborate on a couple of things that Alan mentioned:

I. Prudential Judgment

What he was talking about, in his example of the local political realm, was discernment. The candidate who called himself pro-life was apparently not. Therefore, Alan does not seem (I don’t know the details; I’m going by his word here) to have chosen to “oppose a pro-life candidate in favor of, and for the intentions of, a pro-choice candidate.” Rather he was choosing a candidate whose views were clear versus a candidate who had no evidence of compliance with absolute moral truth, and whose behavior/intentions were suspicious, according to Alan’s personal judgment.

The Church allows prudential judgment, because the Church recognizes that God expects us to use our brains to make discernments.

II. The term “Catholic”

It’s a term of baptismal membership, yes, and as such, indelible, the Church says. Nevertheless, one can be a faitfhul Catholic, a sincere but struggling Catholic, a dissenting, oppositional Catholic, or a non-practicing, thoroughly repudiating Catholic. Any combination of descriptions may be apt.

I think it’s best if the member examines his or her own heart and behavior to determine which of those or other categories best describes him or her.

However, the term “Catholic” as membership status, and the concept of “a Catholic position” are not interchangeable or mutual. Because one is baptized does not make an errant position authoritatively Catholic. A position is authoritatively Catholic if it complies with those truths which have been uttered as binding by the Magisterium.

I’ve had internal disagreements with the Church over matters of dogma. To avoid scandal, the appropriate thing is for me to keep them to myself (the Church says), and/or to share them only with appropriate guides, such as priests or spiritual directors. The even more appropriate action is for me to pray about them and exercise the virtue of humility in attempting interior conformity. The inappropriate (unCatholic) action is to disregard the Magisterium because I personally believe that a particular “doesn’t make sense” or seems “irrational” or “isn’t modern.”
 
One has to distinguish between disagreement vs. dissent, between private and public, between matters on which there has been definitive, binding teaching (and depending on the scope of that instruction, whether general or specific).

There are many issues and concepts on which the Church has not voiced any official position,even so much as a suggestion. Until the Church does (on that matter), the Catholic is free to hold whatever personal viewpoint he or she wishes, without scruples. That includes if the Pope himself merely makes a comment about something in the news, and that comment is merely a reflection or an observation. Hopefully, we would respect what he says, but we are not bound by it.

There are other matters in which informal discussion has occurred. Included in this would be individual statements of Cardinals, bishops, priests, and lay theologians, which are their acknowledged interpretations of unsettled, non-binding Catholic thought, or their personal suggestions about the manner in which to study Catholicism, the manner in which to pray, etc. That would also include matters of spirituality – an individual’s personal interpretation of a Saint’s approach to prayer. And in the civil realm it would include an indivdual’s personal interpretation of the harm a particular legislative bill might cause in a specific social justice area but the effects of which are not yet clear.

Then there is the vast and codified area of moral doctrine and theological dogma. There really is no obstinate disagreement allowed in these areas. We human beings are prone to doubt, particularly about unseen matters. That’s natural and certainly not sinful, let alone “not allowed,” LOL.

I think a good distinction between disagreement and dissent was laid out by a religious brother who is a CAF member, and who spoke about it here. Regarding (again) moral law, we have no choice as faithful Catholics but to engage our wills to comply with the Magisterium, even if our emotions resist that and we cannot honestly express enthusiasm. The Catechism is not a group of opinions or suggestions, when it deals with moral truths:

A Catholic can be internally conflicted about a moral law, but at the very least it is required that he try to conform to that moral law no matter how he “feels” about it, no matter what his “opinion” is.

Regarding a different category – not moral absolutes but discipline and practice, here is what Brother JR said:
I’ve heard similar statements like this, and I don’t buy it. If I cannot rationally accept a position of the Magisterium, I am by no means simply going to say I will defer to the wisdom of my betters. That would be a position completely without integrity. On the matter I just propounded, I suppose I am not so absolutely certain that the Church’s position is wrong, even though it seems to me to be completely insane, and not in the way the martyrs were thought to be mad because they had strong convictions, but the insanity of putting abstractions above life. But still, that is a rare matter, and maybe even never happens the way I said, so I can bite my tongue.

But if the Church still, as it used to, refused unbaptized infants Christian burial because St. Augustine said that if anyone held they could be saved, they should be anathema, I would leave the Church without remorse.
 
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