How much does your family of origin affect your relationship with God?

[DarkLight]

I have to wonder if forgiveness is itself an issue of learning from family.

I know there’s sort of a bleed effect, where one major issue within a relationship can sort of poison other bits. I know for me it’s hard to deal with apologizing because of certain things. I don’t think there’s anything wrong in general with making a child apologize. But if it’s combined with a warped idea of guilt it causes issues.

It’s hard to think of forgiveness sometimes because it almost feels like a weapon to me. It felt terrible to be told I was forgiven so often. Because the subtext to “I forgive you” is “you did something wrong to me.” The apology/forgiveness cycle meant that working things out and coming to a mutual understanding wasn’t an option.

 

[casslean]

It’s hard to think of forgiveness sometimes because it almost feels like a weapon to me. It felt terrible to be told I was forgiven so often. Because the subtext to “I forgive you” is “you did something wrong to me.” The apology/forgiveness cycle meant that working things out and coming to a mutual understanding wasn’t an option.

We don’t come to a mutual understanding with God. We recognize that we’ve offended Him and ask for His forgiveness. He doesn’t promise forgiveness because we deserve it – that would be justice. He promises forgiveness because He loves us - that’s mercy. That’s what He offers.

 

[DarkLight]

We don’t come to a mutual understanding with God. We recognize that we’ve offended Him and ask for His forgiveness. He doesn’t promise forgiveness because we deserve it – that’s justice. He promises forgiveness because He loves us - that’s mercy.

That may be true. But sometimes when we’re dealing with other humans, we ask forgiveness because we don’t want to get punished. And the person offering forgiveness is also the person asserting that you are bad and deserve punishment. It says that the only possible path to reconciliation is for you to agree with their assessment - there is no path to say I didn’t actually do that, or I don’t know what I did, or I can’t do what you want me to do. They have declared your guilt and what actually happened doesn’t matter.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

It’s hard to think of forgiveness sometimes because it almost feels like a weapon to me. It felt terrible to be told I was forgiven so often. Because the subtext to “I forgive you” is “you did something wrong to me.” The apology/forgiveness cycle meant that working things out and coming to a mutual understanding wasn’t an option.

The hardest part about forgiveness for me is that I had to give it knowing that no mutual understanding would follow. The reality is that I can’t make my father feel things he doesn’t or understand things he can’t. It’s tough, but so worth it.

 

[casslean]

But part of improving our relationship with God is recognizing that those limitations or weaknesses don’t exist between us and Him.

We can acknowledge the pain and hurts of the past, but the key to not letting it hold you back in your relationship with God is recognizing that He is greater than all of that. His love is perfect. Human love is not.

Also, therapy. Therapy is good.

 

[DarkLight]

The hardest part about forgiveness for me is that I had to give it knowing that no mutual understanding would follow. The reality is that I can’t make my father feel things he doesn’t or understand things he can’t. It’s tough, but so worth it.

I guess that feels nastier to me than just not worrying about forgiveness. Who am I to just declare I forgive a person like that? It’s putting me in a position of power over them that I have no right to be in. I personally would rather someone not forgive me than that they decide to forgive me for something that I don’t believe I did.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

You aren’t in a position of power over them. You are in a position of power over yourself, your emotions, and your emotional reactions. That’s the whole point of the exercise: to take back the power someone else stole from you.

 

[casslean]

I guess that feels nastier to me than just not worrying about forgiveness. Who am I to just declare I forgive a person like that? It’s putting me in a position of power over them that I have no right to be in. I personally would rather someone not forgive me than that they decide to forgive me for something that I don’t believe I did.

God does that all the time. He forgives us for making mistakes we don’t realize we are making.

Again, that’s why it’s called mercy, not justice.

 

[DarkLight]

To take back the power like that isn’t forgiveness; it’s indifference. It’s saying, forget about all this. You live your life, I live mine, we can reconsider that if you’re willing to work things out. But otherwise I’m not going to try to spend more time thinking about you than I need to. I don’t need to spend time speculating about your motives or trying to understand, or mulling over what your intentions were.

God does that all the time. He forgives us for making mistakes we don’t realize we are making.

I guess that just scares me. If it’s not something I could know about, why would it need forgiveness? A lot of descriptions of God’s mercy feel like God’s trying to find things to be angry at us to begin with. If I make a mistake and don’t know it, don’t patronize me, tell me clearly what the problem is and let me fix it. Forgiving me for a mistake that I didn’t know I was making is useless.

If I didn’t realize I was making a mistake, then there isn’t any reasonable way I could have been expected to avoid it. How can I be guilty of something and yet not be reasonably able to avoid it?

 

[mrsdizzyd]

To take back the power like that isn’t forgiveness; it’s indifference. It’s saying, forget about all this. You live your life, I live mine, we can reconsider that if you’re willing to work things out. But otherwise I’m not going to try to spend more time thinking about you than I need to. I don’t need to spend time speculating about your motives or trying to understand, or mulling over what your intentions were.

Perspective and intention makes all the difference as to whether or not you have forgiven someone or simply replaced anger with indifference.

Authentic forgiveness does indeed restore your own sense of power over your own emotions and emotional reactions. Unconditional forgiveness does not require the other party to act or respond. You can’t force it. I pray you’ll get there when the time is right.

God bless.

 

[casslean]

I guess that just scares me. If it’s not something I could know about, why would it need forgiveness? A lot of descriptions of God’s mercy feel like God’s trying to find things to be angry at us to begin with. If I make a mistake and don’t know it, don’t patronize me, tell me clearly what the problem is and let me fix it. Forgiving me for a mistake that I didn’t know I was making is useless.

You are backing your car up and accidentally run over someone’s cat. You have a big car and it’s a small cat, so you don’t realize and drive off. The person doesn’t know who you are, and you don’t know you’ve done anything, but the person still feels the pain of losing their cat.

Should they just be angry at you forever? Of course not. That isn’t good for them. So God calls on us to forgive because it’s good for us. Holding on to anger and grudges isn’t good for us. And to show us how to forgive unconditionally He offers us unconditional love.

 

[DarkLight]

Perspective and intention makes all the difference as to whether or not you have forgiven someone or simply replaced anger with indifference.

Authentic forgiveness does indeed restore your own sense of power over your own emotions and emotional reactions. Unconditional forgiveness does not require the other party to act or respond. You can’t force it. I pray you’ll get there when the time is right.

I don’t know how much I’d even describe it as anger in the first place. For me, the sense was always most akin to grief, like you lost someone, only they never were quite there and they’re still not quite gone. The dominant senses were hurt, longing, maybe fear, but not really anger. It’s a burning desire to reach in and fix everything, to give it one more try, backed against the knowledge that it’s almost certainly only going to lead to you getting hurt more. It’s always been coupled with a hefty amount of doubt - maybe you’re overreacting, maybe you really are just too sensitive, maybe it really is your fault.

I suspect that’s why my interaction with forgiveness is so different. My instincts say to forget everything and just keep trying to fix the relationship no matter what’s happened before. Holding tight to the knowledge of what happened is the only way to keep from being hurt again.

 

[goout]

Your family of origin has an overwhelming effect on your image and relationship with God.
My father had an oppressive experience with Catholicism and chafed at authority his whole life. He taught us to take Catholicism with a skeptical eye.
So I am skeptical, and it’s something I fight with all the time.
I had no compelling reason to be Catholic. I had to come back to it as an adult.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Whether it’s anger or sadness or grief, I think whenever it is that you can reconcile the idea that forgiveness does not mean you have to excuse the past (or continue to endure abusive behavior), you will see a major change in your quality of life and your relationship with God and his Church.

 

[DarkLight]

I think for me the problem is, so many of the ideas of forgiveness I have seen are basically all centered around the idea of anger or the idea that you want to make someone pay somehow. I feel like I have a long list of things that forgiveness isn’t, and then a few descriptions that seem to assume I think and feel in ways that are strange to me, and that’s it.

So people tell me that forgiveness doesn’t mean I have to excuse the past, but then they turn around and give me the exact same words that people use when they’re telling you why you should excuse the past. Or it talks about letting go of a punishment you never wanted to inflict in the first place.

Should they just be angry at you forever? Of course not. That isn’t good for them. So God calls on us to forgive because it’s good for us. Holding on to anger and grudges isn’t good for us. And to show us how to forgive unconditionally He offers us unconditional love.

I can sort of get that, but…it would only fit for me if I know that the person would be sorry if they knew what they’d done. That’s the key for me - I can let it all go precisely because I know they would. It’s not even a real choice, it’s just not being stupid by holding on to anger over what obviously couldn’t be avoided.

I might feel hurt, but I feel a lot of things that I disregard because they don’t fit reality.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

So people tell me that forgiveness doesn’t mean I have to excuse the past, but then they turn around and give me the exact same words that people use when they’re telling you why you should excuse the past. Or it talks about letting go of a punishment you never wanted to inflict in the first place.

Do you believe it is possible to explain something without excusing it?

I’d argue that being able to explain why a certain thing happened is not the same as offering an excuse.

 

[DarkLight]

Do you believe it is possible to explain something without excusing it?

I’d argue that being able to explain why a certain thing happened is not the same as offering an excuse.

It’s possible, it’s just not relevant to anything I’d understand as forgiveness.

The reason you explain something is so you can figure out how to fix it or whether it can be fixed.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

The reason you explain something is so you can figure out how to fix it or whether it can be fixed.

Is it possible that you might explain something in order to better understand it or come to terms with it or reflect on it from a different frame of reference?

 

[DarkLight]

Is it possible that you might explain something in order to better understand it or come to terms with it or reflect on it from a different frame of reference?

It’s possible, but it is often not useful. When you’re hurt, trying to explain something is likely to focus you on the hurt. You can’t actually get inside someone’s head, and trying to explain it for me just ends in going around in circles and I usually end up exhausted and often in tears.

I used to try explaining it for hours on end to try to reframe what had happened so I could understand and maybe not be hurt so much. It never helped, and it definitely kept me from moving on with my life because I was so focused on how I needed to understand.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

It’s possible, but it is often not useful. When you’re hurt, trying to explain something is likely to focus you on the hurt. You can’t actually get inside someone’s head, and trying to explain it for me just ends in going around in circles and I usually end up exhausted and often in tears.

This is why I keep using the word “assume”. We can hold any assumption that is reasonable. It is a choice that we make within our own thought process. The key is that a healthy assumption has to ring true for you otherwise it is to no avail. Holding a healthy assumption stops the spinning in circles.

As I said early, an example of a healthy positive assumption you could hold regarding your situation is: “However misguided my mothers actions were, they were coming from a place of love, care, and concern.” (And, no, you don’t have to accept the manipulative arguments of your mother. These are your thoughts not hers.)

The question then becomes what do you do with that assumption. Can you use this assumption to explain (to yourself) some of the events in the past? And, you can ask yourself, is there anyway this explanation can help me move forward in a way that acknowledges the validity of my feeling while also letting some of the anger/sadness/loss that I attached to those events fade?