How much ecumenism is too much?

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Ravyn_Guiliani

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How much ecumenical is too much?
I left a parish last year (for other reasons than this) that has an ecumenical relationship with other local denominations that niggles at my conscience. They have combined holiday services and sponsor each others’ events, get-togethers, and fund-raisers-particuarly a group called “Trinity Ecumenical” comprised of the local Episcopal, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches; and now I have received a post card in the mail for a new church starting in the area and the Catholic Church is hosting the “Grand Opening Worship Service” for it! This church is a “Church of the Brethren” and advertizes itself on the post card as “where the Spirit of the Early Church comes alive!” This Grand Opening is going to be held AT the Catholic Church. I am Roman Catholic because I want to be Roman Catholic, not Episcopal or Lutheran or Brethren…
Is it just me, or does this seem a tad too friendly?
 
Yes, I think that is out of line.

In our local community the Baccalaureate service for the high school seniors rotates among several churches. And, our parish has a service just before Thanksgiving with the local Lutheran church. We rotate between the two churches every year.

That’s it, except for social concern efforts-- like if someone’s house burns down or something, there might be a fundraiser.
 
Our parish has joined the local ministerial association, and works together with other local churches on social concerns things( like a food shelf). The only common service is the one on the eve of the Church Unity Octave. We do not have joint Sunday or weekday worship services(for lack of a better term). The Eucharist is reserved in an adoration chapel and on occasions of really huge funerals (less than once a year) some of the other local churches use our main church because of its size. In my opinion Ecumenism goes too far when we go beyond those beliefs we have in common. It is important I think to understand what other folks believe and let them understand our beliefs, but I draw the line at down pedaling a belief or ignoring it in the name of unity. Joint “liturgies” should be out of the question.
 
Seatuck said:
Seems to me some folks need a refresher course on ecumenism.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
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I read it. As I understand it, honest dialogue about the similarities and differences in liturgy, social justice programs working for the good of humanity and prayer are the things we can share. Communion we can not share unless the non-Catholic churches have a change of heart and accept the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church.

Soooooo, I have no problem with these things mentioned, even attending in one of their church buildings or hosting in one of our Churches…BUT I do have a problem if those opportunities for prayer include Communion. I do not feel it would be right to allow another denonimation to conduct their communion services in our Church with our altar…am I wrong? And unless the priest has sanctified the altar and there is no sharing of our Eucharist I would feel it was wrong to have our Communion in one of their church buildings.

In the case of this parish I am referring to–it always felt as if there was an attempt to “hide” the fact that we had differences–like it was more important to be politically correct than it was to be the true Church. Like there was too much compromise for the sake of neighborliness.
 
rwoehmke said:
So. What is the point here? What is it that we should be taking away from the cited document?
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The point is the that the point of ecumenism is to convert these separated brothers and sisters to the catholic faith and get them into the one true church.That’s the unity we are attempting to achieve with ecumenism. I think this focus gets lost when we only focus on our common beliefs and start supporting their worship and existance as a “church” which we as we have been recently reminded they cannot claim to be a church.
 
Seatuck said:
The point is the that the point of ecumenism is to convert these separated brothers and sisters to the catholic faith and get them into the one true church.That’s the unity we are attempting to achieve with ecumenism. I think this focus gets lost when we only focus on our common beliefs and start supporting their worship and existance as a “church” which we as we have been recently reminded they cannot claim to be a church.
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I agree.
 
Wow! I have never seen such a thing! I just don’t even know what to think. Our Church does participate in several community outreach programs that involve other nonCatholic churches in our area, but nothing like this.

As far as ecumenism is concerned–its limit is the point where we are asked to compromise Catholic teaching. Since the liturgy and our designated places of worship are sacred, it seems this may push the envelope. I believe there are Vatican document(s) that specify limitations on interfaith services, though I haven’t read them myself. Perhaps you could find some on the Internet?
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
I do not feel it would be right to allow another denonimation to conduct their communion services in our Church with our altar…am I wrong? And unless the priest has sanctified the altar and there is no sharing of our Eucharist I would feel it was wrong to have our Communion in one of their church buildings.
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There is an Episcopal church in East Cleveland, OH that has their services in a Catholic church building. Both parishes are struggling. The Episcopal church rents the Catholic church for services on Sunday (their church building is in disrepair, and they cannot afford to fix it).
St. Paul’s Episcopal Church, East Cleveland, OH
Office Address:
c/o Christ the King Roman Catholic Church
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lak611 said:
There is an Episcopal church in East Cleveland, OH that has their services in a Catholic church building. Both parishes are struggling. The Episcopal church rents the Catholic church for services on Sunday (their church building is in disrepair, and they cannot afford to fix it).
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In a church building or in the actual Church using the same altar that a Catholic parish uses? Using the same altar would be highly problematic if not sacrilege and should not be happening.
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
In the case of this parish I am referring to–it always felt as if there was an attempt to “hide” the fact that we had differences–like it was more important to be politically correct than it was to be the true Church. Like there was too much compromise for the sake of neighborliness.
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I know exactly what you are talking about. The priest at my former parish seemed to have such feeling. He had a preference for keeping things ecumenical and a disdain for some of the well known Catholic apologists.

I agree with you. I want to go to a Catholic Church.
 
Seatuck said:
In a church building or in the actual Church using the same altar that a Catholic parish uses? Using the same altar would be highly problematic if not sacrilege and should not be happening.
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Same altar, but separate tabernacle.
 
I was given a good reference to help us understand how this can come to be. First I was reminded how the military often is in the situation of sharing worship space and then I was given the following.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_25031993_principles-and-norms-on-ecumenism_en.html

See article 137 of the 1992 Ecumenical Directory: “Catholic churches are consecrated or blessed buildings which have an important theological and liturgical significance for the Catholic community. They are therefore generally reserved for Catholic worship. However, if priests, ministers or communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church do not have a place or the liturgical objects necessary for celebrating worthily their religious ceremonies, the diocesan Bishop may allow them the use of a church or a Catholic building and also lend them what may be necessary for their services. Under similar circumstances, permission may be given to them for interment or for the celebration of services at Catholic cemeteries.”
 
Seatuck said:
The point is the that the point of ecumenism is to convert these separated brothers and sisters to the catholic faith and get them into the one true church.That’s the unity we are attempting to achieve with ecumenism. I think this focus gets lost when we only focus on our common beliefs and start supporting their worship and existance as a “church” which we as we have been recently reminded they cannot claim to be a church.
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Ah yes, that is indeed the goal in the long run of things, but how much easier to get there if we are not at sword points with each other. If you think that non-Catholics hate and misunderstand the Church today, you need only to look back half a century to see the improvement in our relations. If I were a non-Catholic, why would I even consider the Catholic Church as a possible new home if I hated and had a total lack of understanding what Catholicism is all about.
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
How much ecumenical is too much?
I left a parish last year (for other reasons than this) that has an ecumenical relationship with other local denominations that niggles at my conscience. They have combined holiday services and sponsor each others’ events, get-togethers, and fund-raisers-particuarly a group called “Trinity Ecumenical” comprised of the local Episcopal, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches; and now I have received a post card in the mail for a new church starting in the area and the Catholic Church is hosting the “Grand Opening Worship Service” for it! This church is a “Church of the Brethren” and advertizes itself on the post card as “where the Spirit of the Early Church comes alive!” This Grand Opening is going to be held AT the Catholic Church. I am Roman Catholic because I want to be Roman Catholic, not Episcopal or Lutheran or Brethren…
Is it just me, or does this seem a tad too friendly?
Code:
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With the permission of the local Bishop an Ecumenical Mass may be celebrated. Without that permission the local Catholic Church is limited to working with other Christian Communities for the common good. they may also hold common prayer gatherings praying for Christian re-union, they may not have common Worship. The local Catholic Church can offer a Mass with the intention for the “Unity of Christians” and anyone Catholic or non-Catholic may attend, only Catholic sin full union with the Church may receive Holy Communion.

Ecumenism goes too far when it enters the area of compromise.
 
lak611 said:
There is an Episcopal church in East Cleveland, OH that has their services in a Catholic church building. Both parishes are struggling. The Episcopal church rents the Catholic church for services on Sunday (their church building is in disrepair, and they cannot afford to fix it).
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Where abouts i go to CSU what street is it on? Have you ever been to St John’s Evangelical church on Superior?
 
I can’t really see the point of ecumenism. What purpose does it serve?

I can’t see the point of dialogue when you know that your Church is right and their Church is wrong.

I recently read a history of the Jesuits and I thought the missionary zeal in the past was great. It’s a shame that the Church doesn’t put more effort into evangelisation instead of ecumenism.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
I can’t really see the point of ecumenism. What purpose does it serve?

I can’t see the point of dialogue when you know that your Church is right and their Church is wrong.

I recently read a history of the Jesuits and I thought the missionary zeal in the past was great. It’s a shame that the Church doesn’t put more effort into evangelisation instead of ecumenism.
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People tend to get the two mixed together.

Evangelization is the attempt to bring a PERSON into union with the Christ and His Church.

Ecumenism is an attempt to bring an ORGANIZATION or separated ecclesial community back into union with the Church of Christ.
 
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