How much ecumenism is too much?

[JudieK]

It seems that too many parishes in American are uncomfortable with their Catholicism and therefore try to present themselves as just another Protestant denomination. I am no longer shocked when I hear that priests detest Catholic apologists, welcome everyone to receive communion, have new age Reikkii and other classes at their churches. Nothing shocks me, but I am so saddened by it. Richard John Neuhouse got it right when he said that Catholicism just isn’t the American way. Americans are a consumer culture… we shop around until we find the religious “product” that “meets our needs.” These “progressive” “Catholic” parishes are trying to compete with the Protestant Mega-churches for members, and are therefore trying to offer the “product” that people want. Never mind if any of it is theologically correct or even “Catholic” at all…anything uniquely “Catholic” is downplayed or watered down to be virtually irrelevent. America is all about individualism, democracy, freedom… and the Catholic ideas about submission to authority, obedience, absolute truths, dying to self are so very foreign to most of us. And the thought of giving allegience to a dignitary (the Pope) in a foreign land (the Vatican)- well that’s just Un-American! Neuhouse said we should not be American Catholics, but Catholics who happen to be American. Being Catholic should define who we are, not being American. Unfortunately… it seems to be going the other way.

This service welcoming members to a “new church” should not be celebrated in the Catholic church, or even attended by Catholics. Any new church is just a vehicle for pulling people out of Christ’s one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. Let’s give up what’s true for what’s fun, attractive, and entertaining! Afterall- it’s only the American way.

On a side note… I am always seeing artistic portrayals of Jesus and the apostles at the Last Supper with the words “ALL ARE WELCOME.” it’s even in a sand sculture in Ocean City. The Episcopal Church seems big on that motto, too. I have a small problem with it, because it seems to be taking a cheap shot at the Catholic Church, who does not allow non-Catholics to receive communion. (Of course, ALL are welcome to attend mass and join in prayer and worship!) As I recall, even in the ancient Christian church, one had to be catechized, baptized, and initiated into the “mysteries” before one could receive the Holy Eucharist. That ensures that no one receives unworthily or receives while failing to discern Christ’s body in the eucharist. We all know that the Bible says that would result in “eating and drinking condemnation upon oneself.” Those who say “all are welcome” do not believe in the real presence, so they don’t see the risk there. so it’s just another feel good slogan to lure Catholics who don’t know better away. Just my 2 cents!

 

[KelliFitz]

This is a great topic.
However, some statements on this page are confused. E.g., even the thread title “is it possible to have too much ecumenism?” is like saying “is it possible to have too much unity in Christ?” or too much health, etc.

Obviously, what is meant is that one can compromise things in the effort for unity – but that’s a false ecumenism, according to the very documents referenced.

The key importance of common ecumenical prayer is due to human nature. We have natural prejudices against those we’re
unfamiliar/uncomfortable with – and it’s especially wrong on this
topic because it’s prejudice against Christ – and we all seriously
lose out -– both in terms of our broadened experience of God and our witness to the world.

Dr. Peter Kreeft has an excellent book on this called Ecumenical Jihad: peterkreeft.com

Certainly there are some that abuse this and see/treat ecumenism as a compromise, which is certainly wrong, but it’s far more common that the abuse and danger goes the other way by not being in united with the core, powerful basics that Christ is working in His body. This is precisely why those encyclicals were written – exactly the reverse – not to stifle the effort, but to promote it!

Why? Because in the larger context, discerning the action, words and trends of the Spirit in modern times, it’s pretty a clear case that worldwide God is “forging unity” (“alright kids, make up”) and the result is an unprecedented love – via history’s greatest ecumenist, Christ.

Personally, I find it easy to promote the vision of the encyclicals
because I’ve encountered enormous spiritual power for answered to prayers (Matt 18:19) via the Holy Spirit. Examples:
cbn.com/cbnnews/190055.aspx

Cheers in Christ,
Dave

Here are two outstanding audio lectures on this:
peterkreeft.com/audio/01_culture-war.htm
peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm

One example of a great Fellowship encouraging this:
thursdaynightfellowship.org/about/ecumenism.htm

 

[Ellen_G]

The late Cardinal Suenans ( APPOINTED BY POPE JPHN PAUL as advisor to CHARISMATIC GROUP stated that ecumenism would not come through dialogue but rather on our knees – through Prayer. Whenever we COMPROMIZE the TRUTH for ecumenism, we are denying our Lord. I saw this coming in a Benedictine group in my area and after25 yrs of this compromizing they have gone secular. This is happening all over and we are throwing our Lord out our lives. " you believe the way you want and I’ll believe the way I want --just so it feels good.

My best nurse friend is non Catholic and I believe that we have a great ecumenical relationship.She knows where I stand in my religious convictions and respects me for these beliefs. In our friendship, she has become more active in her church,especially now that she has grandchildren in her life. When any of her friends have a need, she will call me to pray for them.

Pope Benedict just came under attack because we do not understand that we cannot compromize our Lord just to get along. Even our Lord allowed people to walk away rather than compromize the Truth. AD JESUM PER MARIA

 

[lak611]

Where abouts i go to CSU what street is it on? Have you ever been to St John’s Evangelical church on Superior?

St. John the Evangelist Cathedral is the Cathedral for the Diocese of Cleveland. It is a Catholic Cathedral, and I’m not aware of it having Episcopal services. Trinity Cathedral on Euclid, across from CSU is the Episcopal Cathedral. I’m not aware of it having Catholic Masses.

The Catholic parish in East Cleveland that has Episcopal services is:
Christ the King
1862 Noble Rd
Cleveland, OH 44112

 

[Pophead]

How much ecumenical is too much?
I left a parish last year (for other reasons than this) that has an ecumenical relationship with other local denominations that niggles at my conscience. They have combined holiday services and sponsor each others’ events, get-togethers, and fund-raisers-particuarly a group called “Trinity Ecumenical” comprised of the local Episcopal, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches; and now I have received a post card in the mail for a new church starting in the area and the Catholic Church is hosting the “Grand Opening Worship Service” for it! This church is a “Church of the Brethren” and advertizes itself on the post card as “where the Spirit of the Early Church comes alive!” This Grand Opening is going to be held AT the Catholic Church. I am Roman Catholic because I want to be Roman Catholic, not Episcopal or Lutheran or Brethren…
Is it just me, or does this seem a tad too friendly?

I often wonder about this too.

But if we are spiritually from the same family. God is our Father, and these are our sisters and brothers, surely we can find ways to tolerate our different beliefs. Don’t we do this everyday, at home, at work, at school, at play, why not at church too ?


Pophead

 

[victor_rose]

The point is the that the point of ecumenism is to convert these separated brothers and sisters to the catholic faith and get them into the one true church.That’s the unity we are attempting to achieve with ecumenism. I think this focus gets lost when we only focus on our common beliefs and start supporting their worship and existance as a “church” which we as we have been recently reminded they cannot claim to be a church.

So, what about our various Orthodox brethren who are allowed to not be Roman Catholic via the decisions of the respective Councils? (I don’t have the details, but they *are *allowed to not be under the authority of the Pope.)

Is the RCC really the only true church? Can God really be that specific?

I ask in all spiritual humility.

 

[Debra_C]

So, what about our various Orthodox brethren who are allowed to not be Roman Catholic via the decisions of the respective Councils? (I don’t have the details, but they *are *allowed to not be under the authority of the Pope.)

Is the RCC really the only true church? Can God really be that specific?

I ask in all spiritual humility.

I think you are misinformed? the Orthodox Churches are still separated and not in union with Rome. Pope Benedict XVIrecently made trip to Turkey to speak with their lead Patriarch, Bartholomew.

There are also a number of Eastern Rite Churches which are in communion with Rome, however. Most of them also were once separated by schism. The Papacy has long allowed them to continue their traditional practices (such as married priesthood, patriarchs instead of bishops, candles set into sand instead of holy water fonts, Baptism/Communion/Confirmation performed together even with infants, etc.), but they are united in doctrine and do accept the authority of the Pope.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

There is an Episcopal church in East Cleveland, OH that has their services in a Catholic church building. Both parishes are struggling. The Episcopal church rents the Catholic church for services on Sunday (their church building is in disrepair, and they cannot afford to fix it).

In our diocese there’s not too much false ecumenism. We have one parish that is currently having Mass at the local United Methodist Church in a small mountain town (Estes Park, CO). At college campuses the priest will use the chapel there. I haven’t noticed anything too drastic.

 

[Debra_C]

I often wonder about this too.

But if we are spiritually from the same family. God is our Father, and these are our sisters and brothers, surely we can find ways to tolerate our different beliefs. Don’t we do this everyday, at home, at work, at school, at play, why not at church too ?


Pophead

As Catholics we should be tolerant, of course. We must always be willing to respect the free will choices of others. The problem arises when we are asked to compromise doctrine–core Catholic beliefs–in order to accomodate those of our separated brothers and sisters.

So long as sharing of facilities is done within guidelines of Vatican documents and with appropriate permissions of the bishop, there is no problem. Though, it is no surprise that questions or confusion might arise for parishioners who aren’t necessarily made aware of where the line is or whether proper permission has indeed been granted. I certainly hope the OP’s former parish falls into this category, but I can’t tell from here.

 

[Genesis315]

I fear that such situations create a false and complacent “being together” rather than working towards true unity–it even seems to encourage false beliefs and practices. Here is what Pope John Paul II said true unity is in his encyclical on ecumenism ( Ut Unum Sint ):

The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety. In matters of faith, compromise is in contradiction with God who is Truth. In the Body of Christ, “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), who could consider legitimate a reconciliation brought about at the expense of the truth? The Council’s Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae attributes to human dignity the quest for truth, “especially in what concerns God and his Church”,33 and adherence to truth’s demands. A “being together” which betrayed the truth would thus be opposed both to the nature of God who offers his communion and to the need for truth found in the depths of every human heart.

 

[Debra_C]

I fear that such situations create a false and complacent “being together” rather than working towards true unity–it even seems to encourage false beliefs and practices. Here is what Pope John Paul II said true unity is in his encyclical on ecumenism ( Ut Unum Sint ):

The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety. In matters of faith, compromise is in contradiction with God who is Truth. In the Body of Christ, “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), who could consider legitimate a reconciliation brought about at the expense of the truth? The Council’s Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae attributes to human dignity the quest for truth, “especially in what concerns God and his Church”,33 and adherence to truth’s demands. A “being together” which betrayed the truth would thus be opposed both to the nature of God who offers his communion and to the need for truth found in the depths of every human heart.

Amen! (Wish I’d said it this well!)

 

[lak611]

In our diocese there’s not too much false ecumenism. We have one parish that is currently having Mass at the local United Methodist Church in a small mountain town (Estes Park, CO). At college campuses the priest will use the chapel there. I haven’t noticed anything too drastic.

My parish volunteers at an ecumenical mission meal for the poor that is held at a Methodist church. I have become friends with the Methodist pastor who has a practicing Catholic wife. He has never tried to convert her. He is a great Christian. When I was having difficulties, he prayed with me, and I had my prayers answered. I have another Methodist friend who is a wonderful Christian. Nobody from the Methodist church is “sheep stealing”. The Methodists are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do pray for them all the time. They work with Catholics well and see us as fellow Christians. I have nothing but respect for them.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

So, what about our various Orthodox brethren who are allowed to not be Roman Catholic via the decisions of the respective Councils? (I don’t have the details, but they *are *allowed to not be under the authority of the Pope.)

Is the RCC really the only true church? Can God really be that specific?

I ask in all spiritual humility.

Is there really only one, YES!

Their choice is an individual choice. If they truly have no choice God will make that judgment later.

 

[Pophead]

Is there really only one, YES!

How do you know this ?

Pophead.

 

[Debra_C]

My parish volunteers at an ecumenical mission meal for the poor that is held at a Methodist church. I have become friends with the Methodist pastor who has a practicing Catholic wife. He has never tried to convert her. He is a great Christian. When I was having difficulties, he prayed with me, and I had my prayers answered. I have another Methodist friend who is a wonderful Christian. Nobody from the Methodist church is “sheep stealing”. The Methodists are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do pray for them all the time. They work with Catholics well and see us as fellow Christians. I have nothing but respect for them.

That is the way community outreach ministries are supposed to work! My daughter and I occasionally work with a soup kitchen hosted by the local AME church here. Many groups from area churches of all denominations come and help with this ministry, which delivers about 200 meals to homes of shut-ins who are impoverished, but also to as many as 100 walk-in people a day. We are glad to help them do this. Our own church is in an area where there isn’t very much poverty, and, though we have a pantry where we give out dry goods and supplies to any who ask, we do not have the facilities to provide large numbers with cooked daily meals. The reverends at the AME church look at me a little funny when I cross myself and say a prayer for the dead as I pass by their cemetary on my way in, but no one has ever questioned me or insulted my faith, nor would I theirs.

But, this is not the same as having worship services for other denominations in a Catholic Church. We believe only the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth as revealed by God through Jesus Christ, and our liturgy and worship spaces are sacred. However, I know that it is possible under certain guidelines and circumstances to share our worship spaces, because the military has always used a shared space for worship among many denominations (including Catholic), as do many hospitals and college campuses. My husband and I (long before we came into the Church) sang in the chapel choir at one of the bases where he was stationed. We sang two services every Sunday-- a Catholic Mass, and a generic, traditional Protestant worship service (it seemed to combine Methodist, Episcopalian, and Lutheran traditions, but varied depending on which minister did the service). Sometimes they had additional services and celebrations, too.

I have even been to a sort of interfaith Mass said especially for our newly elected city officials (at the request of our mayor, who is a parishioner). The pastors of the churches the officials attend were all invited, Catholic and noCatholic alike. The officials and their families were all briefly introduced, and the nonCatholic ministers were invited to pray for the city and our new officials during the designated announcement periods. The Catholic priests and deacons from other parishes were invited to concelebrate the Mass, which followed the rubrics precisely with teh exception of the extended announcements period being used as I said above. So these things can be done… There are guidelines for doing them without compromising Catholic teaching or liturgy… but the guidelines have to be observed and appropriate permission granted.

 

[RWMorris]

I personally believe that we should work with other traditional Protestants in rescue missions, prayer groups, etc.
BUT we should realize that the RCC is, as Pope Benedict says, the one true church.
Yes, there can be too much ecumenism, but we must also realize that Protestants are merely our “separated brethren”. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and in the basics of the Creed is our brother or sister in Christ, even if they don’t have the full knowledge of the true church.

 

[Debra_C]

So, what about our various Orthodox brethren who are allowed to not be Roman Catholic via the decisions of the respective Councils? (I don’t have the details, but they *are *allowed to not be under the authority of the Pope.)

Is the RCC really the only true church? Can God really be that specific?

I ask in all spiritual humility.

As I posted earlier, there is a difference between Orthodox (not in full communion) and Eastern Rite (in full communion). The Orthodox Churches do not recognize the Pope’s primacy. The Eastern Rite Churches do. The traditional practices of the two groups are often very similar and can be quite different from those of the Latin Rite Church. But they are still Catholic.

Is there really only one, YES!

Their choice is an individual choice. If they truly have no choice God will make that judgment later.

RCC = Roman Catholic Church, which usually refers specifically to the Latin Rite. No, it is not the only one. The Eastern Rite is also in full communion with the Pope and just as much Catholic as the Latin Rite Churches. But make no mistake, the Church teaching is that the Catholic Church (including both traditions) is the only Church with the fullness of the truth revealed by God through Jesus Christ and entrusted to the Apostles before His Ascension.

How do you know this ?

Pophead.

Because the Bible says so.

Christ said to Peter-- “…You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it…” (Matthew 16:18)

He went on to tell Peter in this same passage that he was being given the keys to the Kingdom of God–that ‘whatever he looses on earth shall be loosed in heaven, and whatsoever he binds on earth would be bound in heaven’ (Matthew 16:19). Thus Peter becomes the first Pope. Since he ended up in and remained in Rome most of the remainder of his ministry, died, and was buried there, the traditional seat of the Pope has always been at Rome, though in our history there have been times when the papcy was moved to another location temporarily.

Before He ascended into heaven, Jesus gave Peter and the the other Apostles further instructions and authority-- Peter was told three times to tend to Jesus’ sheep. (cf John 21:15-17) The Apostles were all instructed to pray unceasingly until the arrival of the Holy Spirit which would empower them to establish the Church according to His instruction, which was born from the water and blood that flowed from Christ’s side. (cf Acts 1:1-8). They (and we the Church) were promised that Jesus would remain with us always, even until the end of the age (through the gift of the Holy Spirit)(cf Matthew 28:18-20). The Apostles were also told that whatever sins they forgave would be forgiven in heaven, and those they retained would be retained in heaven (the authority to forgive sins and the institution of the Sacrament of Confession) (cf John 20:21-23).

That is how we know. Because we can, with historical fact, trace the roots of this Catholic Church all the way back to the very first Pope, Peter, and our Sacred Tradition to these Apostles.

 

[Pophead]

Because the Bible says so.

How many heads does the body of Christ have ?

Pophead.

 

[JudieK]

How many heads does the body of Christ have ?

Pophead.

Jesus is the head of the Body of Christ! The Pope is the “vicar” of Christ.

Pophead- we frequent the same threads… I think we have struggled with the same issues. Sometimes the reality of the Church doesn’t match up with the beautiful ideals of the Catholic Faith. This has bothered me often in the past. Then I remembered that Jesus said that the Church would consist of the wheat AND the tares until the end of time. Sometimes the tares (weeds?) seem to be all that we (and the rest of the world) sees. But the Church is holy and pure IN SPITE of all our human, sinful ways. The Church is the Kingdom of God on Earth. We pass through on our pilgrimage, but nothing our sinful natures can do (even horrendous scandals!) can change what the Church is. Jesus promised that the Gates of Hell could not prevail against His Church. That’s good enough for me! God Bless you! Judie

 

[prv]

With the permission of the local Bishop an Ecumenical Mass may be celebrated. Without that permission the local Catholic Church is limited to working with other Christian Communities for the common good. they may also hold common prayer gatherings praying for Christian re-union, they may not have common Worship. The local Catholic Church can offer a Mass with the intention for the “Unity of Christians” and anyone Catholic or non-Catholic may attend, only Catholic sin full union with the Church may receive Holy Communion.

Ecumenism goes too far when it enters the area of compromise.

Brother Rich,

I’ve never heard of an “Ecumenical Mass.” Is this the same thing as a Mass for the “Unity of Christians?” As I understand it, a Mass may only be celebrated by a Catholic priest, either alone or with another Catholic priest(s) and with the assistance (or not) of Catholic deacons; no bishop short of the pope is allowed to dispense from this. Is this correct?