How much free will do we really have

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CRATUS

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Is our life more about fate and destiny? We are born into specific families. We have special traits. Ultimately everything that happens is the Lord’s will. Some of us are more capable of understanding scripture than others. I do not really believe we have much choice other than to cooperate with God or not. In the end God knows who will choose him or not. Who will repent or not.God even knows our time of death.
 
Our life is about choices.
We have the free will to choose,
Our faith helps us to choose wisely.

Choose well my friend.
 
CRATUS said:
Is our life more about fate and destiny? We are born into specific families. We have special traits. Ultimately everything that happens is the Lord’s will. Some of us are more capable of understanding scripture than others. I do not really believe we have much choice other than to cooperate with God or not. In the end God knows who will choose him or not. Who will repent or not.God even knows our time of death.
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You got one thing right. Out of all the struggles and fears and doubts, this will come down to one thing in the end:

Did you cooperate with God’s grace or not?

If you did, you go to Heaven. If you didn’t, you still might go to Heaven if you cooperate with His grace right before you die (because God is very merciful and often gives last-second graces, literally) although you might be in purgatory for a long time.

Proud people will not cooperate with His grace. Humble people will. Pride was the sin of the Devil.

To choose God is to choose Love. To reject God is to reject Love, Life, Truth, and all that is good.

People who serve God for their whole lives will be closer to God in Heaven, and the rewards they earn by cooperating with so many graces are permanent rewards. They will still have those rewards in a billion billion years. Just one of those rewards is worth more than the whole world and all of its pleasures put together.

If a person is too proud and will not humble themselves, they run the risk of losing God forever.

Pride is our biggest enemy. It is the most dangerous sin and is the first sin ever committed. It is the reason the Devil fell.

Predestination is real but not how you might think. God wills everyone’s Salvation and gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved. Everyone, often in ways we do not know of. Those who He foreknows will cooperate with the graces He gives, He predestines. And it is true that some people get more grace than others.

God loves us. Always keep that in mind. He literally loves us. He IS Love. Literally.
 
We have about as much free will as Adam and Eve had. We each are tested with whatever fruit Satan chooses for us, we through the grace of God hopefully persevere. God wanted us for relationship, not simple automatons.

As paragraph 1704 of the Catechism says: “The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”

Although it is important to remember, as it says in paragraph 1711 that humankind is ordered towards God, we all have that hunger for God. Whether it is fulfilled by God or by our passions is a choice we make and a battle we fight until our life’s end.

In paragraph 1730 it says that: “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him. Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.”

Furthermore the more we act in accord with the good, with what God asks of us, the freer we actually are. One way of knowing this is looking at the diversity of the Saints. There are so many Saints all who follow Jesus but each unique each made it to the beatific vision with who they are intact and thus their freedom intact.
 
Even if, AISTM, “free will” is largely a mirage, we remain responsible for the use of however little of it we do have.

ICXC NIKA.
 
CRATUS said:
Is our life more about fate and destiny?
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If life is all fate and destiny, then there is nothing you can do to change it by that definition. Then we needn’t go to school, get an education, look for a job or a spouse and basically sit around and do nothing. But we know that that is nonsensical. If we don’t take care of our selves, you could end up in places we wish not. If you don’t take care of your income earning potential, you may end up on the dole/begging. If you don’t take care of your health, you will end up pretty sickly. If you don’t take care of your family health, it may fall apart. There is a cause and effect relationship. If you don’t take care of your spiritual health, you will end up making friends with the devil.

Do we have free will? Certainly so. Christ said those given talents must know what to do with them. The rewards/punishment goes with what those servants did with those talents. If you are in slavery mode your freewill could be hampered. But we also know whatever hampered situation we find ourselves in, there is always a morally correct position to take within those constraints. Even if one has to choose between 2 evils, the morally correct one is the one with less evil. We have sufficient freewill to make a correct choice.

Destiny and fate are for those looking for excuses or off-loading blame in my POV.
 
CRATUS said:
Is our life more about fate and destiny? We are born into specific families. We have special traits. Ultimately everything that happens is the Lord’s will. Some of us are more capable of understanding scripture than others. I do not really believe we have much choice other than to cooperate with God or not. In the end God knows who will choose him or not. Who will repent or not.God even knows our time of death.
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This life is* all about *our wills, our choices. However free we are, we’re plenty free enough to be morally responsive beings, to the extent that we reach the age of reason and possess sound minds as the average person does. And this is the very reason why both civil authorities/societies and God recognize that humans should be held accountable for their actions. We simply cannot say “God made me do it”, or “The devil made me do it”.
 
Everybody on this forum needs to read Oedipus Rex and reflect on the interplay between God’s will/fate and free-will. It’s the best illustration I can call to mind. Macbeth is another.

God’s will can be immutable and his knowledge can be infallible and unbounded and we can still be free-ish. It is possible and conceivable that God’s sovereignty and our limited freedom are cooperative and not competitive.

I believe it is true that we are not radically free. We cannot do anything whatsoever with no limitations. We have only some options, and we aren’t even aware of the options we choose sometimes. We’re feeble, blind, and weak…but we can choose among the crumbs on the ground in front of us. This is still some measure of freedom, and it is a tremendous power though it pales in comparison to the freedom we can imagine. Unfortunately though, our imaginations deceive us sometimes.
 
ericc said:
If life is all fate and destiny, then there is nothing you can do to change it by that definition. Then we needn’t go to school, get an education, look for a job or a spouse and basically sit around and do nothing. But we know that that is nonsensical. If we don’t take care of our selves, you could end up in places we wish not. If you don’t take care of your income earning potential, you may end up on the dole/begging. If you don’t take care of your health, you will end up pretty sickly. If you don’t take care of your family health, it may fall apart. There is a cause and effect relationship. If you don’t take care of your spiritual health, you will end up making friends with the devil.

.
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I agree with the first part, but making friends with the devil is not necessarily always to be the outcome of a person that simply wishes not to have a relationship with their creator.

I think we have some degree of free will, but if we choose not to worship, not to have that personal relationship with our God, than we are essentially punished when we die for this, in that we are sent to a place that is uncomfortable, even if we were the nicest person on the planet, never harmed another person, donated to worthy causes, helping others, etc.

If we had true free will, God would respect our decision not to have that relationship and a 3rd destination would have been created, a neutral zone, sure it would not be anything as pleasurable as heaven with God, and not as painful as hell, but if thats the choice the person makes, than so be it, they chose to be neutral.
 
CRATUS said:
Is our life more about fate and destiny? We are born into specific families. We have special traits. Ultimately everything that happens is the Lord’s will. Some of us are more capable of understanding scripture than others. I do not really believe we have much choice other than to cooperate with God or not. In the end God knows who will choose him or not. Who will repent or not.God even knows our time of death.
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God has us on a leash, some a little longer or shorter, and we are entirely free to move about until the slack in our leash is used up. So too with free will and the thoughts within our mind.

Galileo was wrong. Our world is flat, and if we were to travel far enough in any one direction, we would fall from this wretched world, deep into the depths of reality.
 
mikekle said:
I agree with the first part, but making friends with the devil is not necessarily always to be the outcome of a person that simply wishes not to have a relationship with their creator.

I think we have some degree of free will, but if we choose not to worship, not to have that personal relationship with our God, than we are essentially punished when we die for this, in that we are sent to a place that is uncomfortable, even if we were the nicest person on the planet, never harmed another person, donated to worthy causes, helping others, etc.

If we had true free will, God would respect our decision not to have that relationship and a 3rd destination would have been created, a neutral zone, sure it would not be anything as pleasurable as heaven with God, and not as painful as hell, but if thats the choice the person makes, than so be it, they chose to be neutral.
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The third option is purgatory.
 
We have the freedom to choose God and to conform to His will or not.We can either accept or reject God. There is ‘no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus’. ‘You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.’
 
PumpkinCookie said:
Everybody on this forum needs to read Oedipus Rex and reflect on the interplay between God’s will/fate and free-will. It’s the best illustration I can call to mind. Macbeth is another.

God’s will can be immutable and his knowledge can be infallible and unbounded and we can still be free-ish. It is possible and conceivable that God’s sovereignty and our limited freedom are cooperative and not competitive.

I believe it is true that we are not radically free. We cannot do anything whatsoever with no limitations. We have only some options, and we aren’t even aware of the options we choose sometimes. We’re feeble, blind, and weak…but we can choose among the crumbs on the ground in front of us. This is still some measure of freedom, and it is a tremendous power though it pales in comparison to the freedom we can imagine. Unfortunately though, our imaginations deceive us sometimes.
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I do not know much free-will ultimately have. God knows who will reject him and who will not. Jesus knew Peter would deny him three times. Jonah could not run away from God. We must do what He says. There is no real way to separate ourselves from God, I think. When I think of all the tragedies it is difficult to believe those were the will of God. Depression? Mental illness? AIDS? So many tragedies occur in this world. What can I do? Nothing. We do not get to even choose our vocation. We must follow through with what God wants us for us. After all, He created us.
 
I ate an orange and an apple today. I could of eaten just an apple.😃
 
mikekle said:
I agree with the first part, but making friends with the devil is not necessarily always to be the outcome of a person that simply wishes not to have a relationship with their creator.
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It is possible that a person may still tread a “healthy” path if they keep a fair distance from God. But then without the oversight of a moral supervisor one may fail to maintain moral standards and right behaviour depending solely on self to govern and judge and decide. Or if not self on peer pressure which may or may not be a good thing although it may be trendy.
I think we have some degree of free will, but if we choose not to worship, not to have that personal relationship with our God, than we are essentially punished when we die for this, in that we are sent to a place that is uncomfortable, even if we were the nicest person on the planet, never harmed another person, donated to worthy causes, helping others, etc.
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While we do not know where one would end up, it is reasonable to say that non-membership in God’s family will not entitle one to membership benefits. Outside of the family, God’s justice is still in force and one will certainly receive their fair dues. The problem is this: how does one imagine how it feels
like without the presence of God? Perhaps today although one may be far away from God, he may still benefit from the generosity of God’s presence, and although he doesn’t know it, he thinks it is rather comfortable without God. But in the afterlife and after judgement, ALL of God’s presence and its associated benefits will be withdrawn from those not deserving of it. The absence of God is hell. God respects your decision not to have him and he keeps away. How it feels, I have no idea but I think it will be unpleasant.
If we had true free will, God would respect our decision not to have that relationship and a 3rd destination would have been created, a neutral zone, sure it would not be anything as pleasurable as heaven with God, and not as painful as hell, but if thats the choice the person makes, than so be it, they chose to be neutral.
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Why would one decide for God what places he should set aside for the afterlife? He already told us we have the freewill to choose him or not. The consequences are made clear. You can design a neutral world for yourself but that is wishful thinking. There is no 3rd place. If there is, he never mentioned it. Just imagine a place without Good, i.e. no love, peace, joy, laughter, good senses, good feelings, etc do you think that is a nice place? Assume he didn’t turn on the pain levels. And the company there is terrible.
 
CRATUS said:
I do not know much free-will ultimately have. God knows who will reject him and who will not. Jesus knew Peter would deny him three times. Jonah could not run away from God. We must do what He says. There is no real way to separate ourselves from God, I think. When I think of all the tragedies it is difficult to believe those were the will of God. Depression? Mental illness? AIDS? So many tragedies occur in this world. What can I do? Nothing. We do not get to even choose our vocation. We must follow through with what God wants us for us. After all, He created us.
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“There is no real way to separate ourselves from God, I think.” YES. To “separate” ourselves from God would be to cease to exist.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent. We cannot “escape” his will for us, but that doesn’t mean we have no free will at all. We have some choices in our lives. We cooperate with God’s will, we do not compete against it. We do not choose to be born, we do not choose our bodies, our parents, our times, our communities, etc. However, we choose who we become as persons (though God knows and wills this too).

God has always known and willed us to be either evil or good, and it is fair for him to punish or reward us to the extent that we have freedom. We must have enough freedom to actually do what is right or what is wrong, or else there is no such thing as justice. It is impossible to fully understand this mystery of how God can be totally sovereign and we can be free simultaneously, and yet it must be so. Because we are blind, we are free.

My advice would be to try to focus on doing the right thing. If it turns out you never had free will, and God is both good and just, you have nothing to fear. If it turns out you never had free will and God doesn’t exist, you still have nothing to fear. If it turns out you do have free will and God exists, trying your hardest to do the right thing can’t hurt your case. If it turns out you have free will but God doesn’t exist, you can at least be comforted by the thought that you are a truly good and honorable human being who has left your tiny slice of existence slightly better than when you came into it.
 
ericc said:
It is possible that a person may still tread a “healthy” path if they keep a fair distance from God. But then without the oversight of a moral supervisor one may fail to maintain moral standards and right behaviour depending solely on self to govern and judge and decide.
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This is the bit that I never get. That my standards of morality will slip if I don’t believe in a ‘moral supervisor’.

Maybe you could point me to wherever it might give guidance on whether hunting is morally correct. Or keeping animals caged. Or paying for a good meal while people starve. Or being overweight. Or raising sentient animals for food.

It’s quite easy to say that I shouldn’t covet my neighbour’s wife or his ox if he had one. Or that I should honour my parents and shouldn’t kill (although that one’s a little vague). But all the myriad moral decisions we make every day we make ourselves. And any one given Christian may make an entirely, and completely valid, decision on any one matter which will be completely at odds with another Christian. Which may, or may not, coincide with what any given atheist decides. So who is the ‘moral supervisor’ supervising?

The moral web that holds society together isn’t just made up of the big questions. It’s the little things that hold it together. By mutual consent. The big things are a given.

But, says the Christian, the moral supervisor is talking to you through your conscience. Well, OK. But that seems to work whether I believe He exists or not. Otherwise, God has decreed that all Christians get a conscience and all non-Christians do not. Does anyone seriously want to propose that? Because it’s pretty obvious that, as poor as an example as I can be held to be, there are very many more Christians that are a lot worse.

So it seems I’m holding my end up reasonably well. Not perfectly by any means. But it does seem to me, from my pretty wide and lengthy experience of life, that a belief in any deity you would care to mention does not necessarily give you any insight on what is right or wrong that couldn’t be reached by any reasonable person.
 
As a corollary to that:

Let’s assume that the proposal is correct. That Christians, with the benefit of their moral supervisor, have a greater chance of maintaining their moral standards than I do. That can only mean one thing: that overall, the moral decisions they make will be better than mine.

If a have a moral problem, it should therefore stand to reason that I should consult any given Christian on the matter because their moral supervisor will have given them a better understanding of the problem then I would have.

Is that reasonable?
 
PumpkinCookie said:
“There is no real way to separate ourselves from God, I think.” YES. To “separate” ourselves from God would be to cease to exist.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent. We cannot “escape” his will for us, but that doesn’t mean we have no free will at all. We have some choices in our lives. We cooperate with God’s will, we do not compete against it. We do not choose to be born, we do not choose our bodies, our parents, our times, our communities, etc. However, we choose who we become as persons (though God knows and wills this too).

God has always known and willed us to be either evil or good, and it is fair for him to punish or reward us to the extent that we have freedom. We must have enough freedom to actually do what is right or what is wrong, or else there is no such thing as justice. It is impossible to fully understand this mystery of how God can be totally sovereign and we can be free simultaneously, and yet it must be so. Because we are blind, we are free.

My advice would be to try to focus on doing the right thing. If it turns out you never had free will, and God is both good and just, you have nothing to fear. If it turns out you never had free will and God doesn’t exist, you still have nothing to fear. If it turns out you do have free will and God exists, trying your hardest to do the right thing can’t hurt your case. If it turns out you have free will but God doesn’t exist, you can at least be comforted by the thought that you are a truly good and honorable human being who has left your tiny slice of existence slightly better than when you came into it.
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Maybe that is a mystery I will never understand. I do not understand free-will. I still do not understand how we have freewill if ultimately God wants us to live our lives a particular. If we disobey we are punished. Maybe I will understand this more if I have children. What is the purpose of praying for others if God knows who will obey or listen to his calling? Do we all have callings? Can we all be saints or is that too God’s choice? I still lean more towards destiny/fate than actual free-will. It is easier to believe in free-will. I do not believe you can escape your destiny. I guess when I think of it, it makes me a little sad. I think of all the people who suffer, that is their destiny. Drowning, AIDS, mental illness, etc. Thinking of all this makes me dislike God - He cannot seem to fix things yet He demands full obedience knowing full well it is impossible for us to be perfect.
 
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