How much free will do we really have

[ericc]

This is the bit that I never get. That my standards of morality will slip if I don’t believe in a ‘moral supervisor’.

I didn’t say that one can’t walk a “healthy” lifestyle without God. May be one can but how would you determine what is good or not good? My question would be how would one know what is moral or immoral without the 10 commandments to guide oneself. Without the Church how would one know whether divorce, abortion, SSA is permissible behaviour or not. Without a moral supervisor who would inform you that you are on the right track. Yourself or your friends? How do one self-police one’s moral behaviour? Without a guide or teacher, how do you determine how one fare?

Maybe you could point me to wherever it might give guidance on whether hunting is morally correct. Or keeping animals caged. Or paying for a good meal while people starve. Or being overweight. Or raising sentient animals for food.

I don’t hunt so I wouldn’t be able to tell you. However it is reasonable to assume that hunting for one’s food is not immoral. There are many places in the world that require supplementation of diet or income through hunting or fishing. However, unleashing a blood bath using the latest machine guns and laser aided technology and drones on animals is questionable other than satisfying one’s blood lust. You didn’t provide any argument whether caged animals in itself is an immoral act. Or whether it is indeed immoral to raise sentient animals for food. Genetical inheritance of obesity is definitely not immoral. Gluttony may be. Paying for a good meal is not immoral. Why do you think it is? Helping the hungry is the right thing to do. But they are not mutually exclusive actions. One do not have enough to feed everyone or help everyone. Depriving oneself is not helpful. The occasional pampering is not immoral if one has earned that justly. Bad living is immoral. Over indulgence is bad living.

It’s quite easy to say that I shouldn’t covet my neighbour’s wife or his ox if he had one. Or that I should honour my parents and shouldn’t kill (although that one’s a little vague). But all the myriad moral decisions we make every day we make ourselves. And any one given Christian may make an entirely, and completely valid, decision on any one matter which will be completely at odds with another Christian. Which may, or may not, coincide with what any given atheist decides. So who is the ‘moral supervisor’ supervising?

That should read murder, not kill. But who decides morality for you? I have the Church. History tells me that the Catholic Church is the one that Jesus founded and the Church that gave us the Bible… Although there are many Christian denominations , we all believe in and worship one God. It is their freewill that allows them to research and choose the true church. Historical data is available. With self, even with knowledge of truth, one may still not accept and comply.

In an irreligious world, the strongest will decide for you what he wants/wishes. If you are not sure whether an act is immoral or not, do you go to the Association for Moral Atheists to get your commandments? Why would you accept another atheist’s commandment? If you don’t, then it only mean that you are the moral law decider and the basis of that law is doubted.

The moral web that holds society together isn’t just made up of the big questions. It’s the little things that hold it together. By mutual consent. The big things are a given.

What are the big things that are given? In one country mutual consent does not necessary mean it is moral, it is just many people agreeing to do immoral things. In another country, there may only be force of state to reckon with. Neither may lead to moral acts. What is given today may not be a given tomorrow. In fact what was considered “givens” yesterday are no longer today. Little things may become big things and vice versa.

But, says the Christian, the moral supervisor is talking to you through your conscience. Well, OK. But that seems to work whether I believe He exists or not. Otherwise, God has decreed that all Christians get a conscience and all non-Christians do not. Does anyone seriously want to propose that? Because it’s pretty obvious that, as poor as an example as I can be held to be, there are very many more Christians that are a lot worse.

Fortunately for you I don’t subscribed to that kind of fallacious reasoning. Anyone can sin grievously. Anyone can do moral or immoral acts. The enlightened Christian would seek supernatural assistance to help them on their journey. Who do atheists seek help on their morality issues? Dawkins? Or they have zero moral issues because there is no such atheistic standard? Or according to Dawkins, we just dance to our own DNA. There is nothing to fix then.

So it seems I’m holding my end up reasonably well. Not perfectly by any means. But it does seem to me, from my pretty wide and lengthy experience of life, that a belief in any deity you would care to mention does not necessarily give you any insight on what is right or wrong that couldn’t be reached by any reasonable person.

It is nice to be able to grade oneself on achieving a moral standard established by yourself. But I am not my own judge, the Divine Judge is.
Your experience predispose you to myopia. An atheist can not imagine the experience of another who has experienced the touch of God. An atheist swimming in the bowl of natural law wouldn’t know or recognise the operation of supernatural laws and its effects. But is is by choice that you desire this state of affair so freewill is real. It is just a pity that the joy of knowing God is put out of reach by your good self.

 

[ericc]

As a corollary to that:

Let’s assume that the proposal is correct. That Christians, with the benefit of their moral supervisor, have a greater chance of maintaining their moral standards than I do. That can only mean one thing: that overall, the moral decisions they make will be better than mine.

If a have a moral problem, it should therefore stand to reason that I should consult any given Christian on the matter because their moral supervisor will have given them a better understanding of the problem then I would have.

Is that reasonable?

Not true. Having a Christian badge does not guarantee that person is the best candidate to ask about moral questions. Some may be better taught than others. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not necessarily a factory that churns out great moral teachers or philosophers. And not all of us benefit from great teachers either. You have to discern. There are many uneducated Christians with simple lifestyles that may not be able to answer life big moral philosophical issues.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Maybe that is a mystery I will never understand. I do not understand free-will. I still do not understand how we have freewill if ultimately God wants us to live our lives a particular. If we disobey we are punished. Maybe I will understand this more if I have children. What is the purpose of praying for others if God knows who will obey or listen to his calling? Do we all have callings? Can we all be saints or is that too God’s choice? I still lean more towards destiny/fate than actual free-will. It is easier to believe in free-will. I do not believe you can escape your destiny. I guess when I think of it, it makes me a little sad. I think of all the people who suffer, that is their destiny. Drowning, AIDS, mental illness, etc. Thinking of all this makes me dislike God - He cannot seem to fix things yet He demands full obedience knowing full well it is impossible for us to be perfect.

I don’t understand how our wills and God’s will interact either! I don’t think anyone does, and it may be a mystery that is beyond us. Nevertheless I believe we do have free will because that seems to be the most practically useful belief.

God’s will, for me, is very similar to fate or destiny. God’s law, however, is something distinct. So, God says to all of us “do not murder” though he knows and wills that some of us will murder. He punishes us for breaking the law because we have freely chosen to disobey though he has always known we would disobey and has willed our existence anyway. He also rewards us for keeping the law though he has always known and willed this too.

I do not pray for the things you mention precisely because of this issue. I pray for God to bless, heal, and protect others. I pray for God to comfort the suffering. I pray for wisdom for myself and others, but I do not pray for anything that would require a person to change their will, since I think this is impossible and ultimately an attempt to use God like a tool to get power over others. Pope Benedict wrote about this in Introduction to Christianity.

We do not know God’s will for us, and so we are free. We know his law, but we cannot peer into the future. We do not know if God wills us to be very righteous or not. Practically speaking, I try to focus on doing my best to keep the law and to love others. Speculation about the future seems fruitless to me. We can only affect the here and now. No reason to worry too much about our final destinies if we are doing the right thing here and now.

I do not know why God wills horrible suffering for so many people. Nevertheless I believe he is good. Read Job carefully, I think it is incredibly deep. Many theologians seem to read it superficially, but there is much richness there. I think there is a good answer for the problem of evil, but I believe that we are unable to understand it in this life. The best we can do is mourn and try to help.

Yes, God knows we cannot be perfect of course! I do not believe he is a cruel and unjust judge however. He is both just and merciful. He demands total obedience but is accepting of repentance. When we inevitably fail, we must repent and restore. Praise God, for he has given us many chances!

*disclaimer: I am not a Christian so this advice probably is not compatible with Christian theologies.

 

[CRATUS]

I don’t understand how our wills and God’s will interact either! I don’t think anyone does, and it may be a mystery that is beyond us. Nevertheless I believe we do have free will because that seems to be the most practically useful belief.

God’s will, for me, is very similar to fate or destiny. God’s law, however, is something distinct. So, God says to all of us “do not murder” though he knows and wills that some of us will murder. He punishes us for breaking the law because we have freely chosen to disobey though he has always known we would disobey and has willed our existence anyway. He also rewards us for keeping the law though he has always known and willed this too.

I do not pray for the things you mention precisely because of this issue. I pray for God to bless, heal, and protect others. I pray for God to comfort the suffering. I pray for wisdom for myself and others, but I do not pray for anything that would require a person to change their will, since I think this is impossible and ultimately an attempt to use God like a tool to get power over others. Pope Benedict wrote about this in Introduction to Christianity.

We do not know God’s will for us, and so we are free. We know his law, but we cannot peer into the future. We do not know if God wills us to be very righteous or not. Practically speaking, I try to focus on doing my best to keep the law and to love others. Speculation about the future seems fruitless to me. We can only affect the here and now. No reason to worry too much about our final destinies if we are doing the right thing here and now.

I do not know why God wills horrible suffering for so many people. Nevertheless I believe he is good. Read Job carefully, I think it is incredibly deep. Many theologians seem to read it superficially, but there is much richness there. I think there is a good answer for the problem of evil, but I believe that we are unable to understand it in this life. The best we can do is mourn and try to help.

Yes, God knows we cannot be perfect of course! I do not believe he is a cruel and unjust judge however. He is both just and merciful. He demands total obedience but is accepting of repentance. When we inevitably fail, we must repent and restore. Praise God, for he has given us many chances!

*disclaimer: I am not a Christian so this advice probably is not compatible with Christian theologies.

What religion are you? You seem to know so much. Well God bless you anyways

 

[fisherman_carl]

As a corollary to that:

Let’s assume that the proposal is correct. That Christians, with the benefit of their moral supervisor, have a greater chance of maintaining their moral standards than I do. That can only mean one thing: that overall, the moral decisions they make will be better than mine.

If a have a moral problem, it should therefore stand to reason that I should consult any given Christian on the matter because their moral supervisor will have given them a better understanding of the problem then I would have.

Is that reasonable?

In theory yes. A Christian may not always live up to their own religion’s standards but at least they know what they are doing is wrong. Without an absolute standard for morality to measure from morality becomes merely relative. We don’t need a religion that agrees with us when we are right, but a religion that tells us when we are wrong. It’s easy to delude ourselves when we are left to our own devices without being accountable to God and others. You would do well to go to the Sacrament of Confession on a regular basis where you have to be accountable to another person for every sin you commit. Let’s see how your morality improves then.