How Much is Rome Worth To You?

[Diak]

That’s a no brainer. Most are 65 plus (at least in the U.S.) and would probably go Latin. They have been Catholic all their lives, and want to be buried Catholic. They grew up in a Latinized Byzantine church, and have the mindset of Catholic first , Byzantine second. Orthodox? No Way! I’m not a Katsop!

Some of the younger people might do the same, or convert to Orthodoxy if they absolutely refuse to give up Eastern Christianity.

It really depends - and perhaps as much as any inherent issues of “latinization” the cultural/ethnic considerations will also come into play. As Etnick pointed out and for which I agree, the majority of members of the American Byzantine Metropolia sui iuris, especially the older ones, would likely become Latin.

For many Ukrainians, however, I believe they would migrate to the Ukrainian Orthodox (non-Muscovite jurisdictions). I think some Melkites as well would likely move to Greek or Antiochian Orthodox parishes. For the Ukrainians and Melkites the cultural aspect may turn out to be a very significant factor. We have Ukrainian Orthodox who attend our churches when they do not have access to parishes, even though there may be other Orthodox parishes. I think you would see the reverse with Ukrainian Catholics in many, if not most, cases.

 

[byzgirl]

Rome has a separate set of laws for the Roman Church, the CIC. The intratext for that is available at vatican.va in both latin and english. The CCEO on the Vatican website is latin only, which is why I referred to the intratext site, since it is obvious you read English.

The Latin Rite has but one church, the Roman Church.

Seriously, tho’ your terminology sounds likeit is that of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia. Using the outdated terminology obfuscates your message needlessly, and can be confusing to those unfamiliar with it.

Also note: Each of the 22 Eastern Churches in union has the option of additional canon laws. The Ruthenian (ByzCath Met. of Pittsburgh, Sui Iuris, one of those 22 churches) canon law is posted at Byzcath.org IIRC.

Terminology aside, I believe, as these Churches are united with the Papacy, and ultimately (despite the separate ladder of hierachy and slight variation of ‘terminology’ within codes) that they submit to that supreme authority of the Pope, and understand the Latin Rite (Roman Church) to be valid, or else they wouldn’t BE apart of the Catholic Church.

Within the prayers of the Liturgy, we hear mention of the Holy Father, and understand his place of importance in the hierarcy of the Byzantine Church; so, despite any problems with ‘terminology’, the place of the Pope cannot be denied (as the final authority for all the Churches in union).

 

[Amadeus]

Terminology aside, I believe, as these Churches are united with the Papacy, and ultimately (despite the separate ladder of hierachy and slight variation of ‘terminology’ within codes) that they submit to that supreme authority of the Pope, and understand the Latin Rite (Roman Church) to be valid, or else they wouldn’t BE apart of the Catholic Church.

Within the prayers of the Liturgy, we hear mention of the Holy Father, and understand his place of importance in the hierarcy of the Byzantine Church; so, despite any problems with ‘terminology’, the place of the Pope cannot be denied (as the final authority for all the Churches in union).

You are correct.

Both the Latin Code of Canons (CIC) and the Eastern Code of Canons (CCEO) recognize that the Supreme Authority in the (Catholic) Church resides in the Pope, who exercises it as the Supreme Pontiff of all Churches in the Catholic communion.

As Supreme Pontiff, the Pope is the visible focal point of unity among the Churches in the Catholic communion and as a continuing manifestation of his office as Peter’s successor (the “Petrine ministry”).

 

[Christy74]

In return, it also gets old explaining that Catholic means one Church, not several. There are 23 rites of the Catholic Church, all sharing the same faith.

Byzgirl, I’m quite certain you have good intentions, but I do see by your posts that you misunderstand what “One Church” means. It’s okay, many people misunderstand just as many people misunderstand the meaning of “One God”.

The Oneness of the Catholic Church is just like the fact that there is One God.

While it is true that there is only One God, we as Catholics know that there are 3 distinct Persons in that One God: Trinity Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Others, when they refer to One God, such as the Jews and Muslims, mean that there is only One Person in the One God.

So you see there are many distinct Churches within the One Church. Each with their own Personalities.

What unites the 3 distinct Persons in the Holy Trinity is God the Father: through Whom the Son is eternally begotten and through Whom the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds.

Like wise, the many distinct Churches derives their Oneness from the Head of that One Church, Jesus Christ, Himself.

The One Church consists of the Roman Church, the Byzantine Churches, the Melkite Church, the Coptic Churches, etc. Each of these Apostolic Churches may or may not be “in communion” with one other at any given time, but they are none the less, the One Church as talked about in the Creed: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I am hopeful that this will assist you and all those who may be confused in this matter.

Best Wishes,
Christy

 

[Hesychios]

Before I spend time reading, can you answer this: whose code of canon law is this, exactly.

The Code of His Holiness Pope John Paul II of Blessed Memory.

Promulgated in 1990AD.

Up until that time the non-Latin churches worked under the Latin code (1983AD, and before that the 1917AD Code of Benedict XV). I don’t now exactly how it was handled before the Code of 1917.

Neither does the Orthodox Church deny the validity of the Roman (Latin) Rite of the Catholic Church…

I don’t know what you mean here.

 

[Hesychios]

…despite any problems with ‘terminology’, the place of the Pope cannot be denied (as the final authority for all the Churches in union).

Would you then say that the Supreme Pontiff has more authority than an Ecumenical Council?

Just curious.

 

[Aramis]

Would you then say that the Supreme Pontiff has more authority than an Ecumenical Council?

Just curious.

Not once he calls it…

 

[Cristian_C]

I will stay with the Pope of Rome.To quote Waugh:–pray God I don’t aposthasize!

 

[Diak]

Our Patriarch Josyp was offered at a minimum the Metropolitinate of Kyiv if he would abandon his communion with Rome as the chief hierarch of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and was offered even more if he could convince other hierarchs to follow. He decided to spend the rest of his sentence in Siberian gulags.

It’s a covenant, a marriage - for better or worse, as we in the Ukrainain Greek Catholic Church have chosen our path as those who choose to be faithful to the Union of Brest and the Union Fathers, and continue to live out our covenant of communion with Rome through our (as our Synod’s Catechetical Directory puts it) unique identity that includes particularity and communion.
FDRLB

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Thank you Father Deacon for reminding us what our Fathers (and Mothers) suffered for the Faith. May we do likewise if necessary!.

 

[a_pilgrim]

Thank you Father Deacon for reminding us what our Fathers (and Mothers) suffered for the Faith. May we do likewise if necessary!.

Some time ago I was honored to have been selected as one of five men chosen to sing responses and hymns at a Roman Catholic Mass presided over by Francis Cardinal George of Chicago. His Eminence chose to use the occasion of his homily to relate to the congregation his experiences during a recent visit to Ukraine, during which he spent considerable time as the guest of a Byzantine Catholic matushka (priest’s wife). She related to him the extreme measures that she, her late +priest-husband and their small congregation had to endure in order to maintain their communion with Rome. For example, secret “code” messages had to be initiated in the village to alert the congregation as to the time and location of the next Divine Liturgy (their church building had long since been confiscated); she herself would transport the unconsecrated Precious Gifts to the secret and ever-changing Liturgy site (for the priest to be caught with the Gifts on his person would mean certain (name removed by moderator)risonment, or worse), often times having to arrive many hours before her husband so as to avoid detection; etc., etc.). This entire congregation was forcibly “converted” under threat of death. They could have freely worshipped within virtually the same, familiar liturgical praxes they had always worshipped within - only without formal communion with the See of Peter. In the face of this they, instead, chose to maintain their communion with Rome over their own safety and security. THAT’S what communion with Rome meant to those brave souls!

His Eminence’s homily brought tears to my eyes. Never was I ever both more proud and more humbled to be a Byzantine Catholic.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I was in attendance at what was supposed to be a Liturgy but our priest comes from Chicago and he was snowed in. Yuri (one of the parishioners) led us in the Reader’s Service. He also gave a little talk at the place of the Homily. He related that his grandmother was shipped off to Siberia from Ukraine. She was shipped off to Siberia because she was a Greek Catholic and knew how to read, which she learned from the Divine Liturgy.

In Siberia, being educated, she often lead Reader’s Services for the women in the gulags and was relied upon because she was more learned than the others.

Yuri said, that it being Lent it should remind us to realize that we are dependent on God for everything. But ometimes he also allows for us to be tested by letting us not have what we need (that day- a priest for Liturgy!)

 

[KingAlfred]

I could never be Orthodox – way, way too much singing during Mass.

 

[Aramis]

I could never be Orthodox – way, way too much singing during Mass.

Just as much singing ans signing the cross during the Eastern Catholic uses of the Byzantine Rite… One prayer spoken; the prayer before communion. Everything else is sung.

 

[Diak]

I was in attendance at what was supposed to be a Liturgy but our priest comes from Chicago and he was snowed in. Yuri (one of the parishioners) led us in the Reader’s Service. He also gave a little talk at the place of the Homily. He related that his grandmother was shipped off to Siberia from Ukraine. She was shipped off to Siberia because she was a Greek Catholic and knew how to read, which she learned from the Divine Liturgy.

In Siberia, being educated, she often lead Reader’s Services for the women in the gulags and was relied upon because she was more learned than the others.

Yuri said, that it being Lent it should remind us to realize that we are dependent on God for everything. But ometimes he also allows for us to be tested by letting us not have what we need (that day- a priest for Liturgy!)

The priest who taught my two older sons to serve spent several years in a prison, his wife in another, and he still serves our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. At our recent UGCC Eparchial clergy retreat (I hadn’t seen him for several years as he was given another parish assignment, and our Eparchy is very large in area) he and I stayed up until well into the morning several nights, he recounting some incredible stories. I also can’t stay dried-eyed during such experiences. Here I am with brother clergy of my Ukrainian Greek Catholic Eparchy who have been willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for the Union. Would I have even a fraction of Fr. Vasyl’s courage under such circumstances.

My family were present for the enshrinement of the relics of Blessed Vasyl Velychkovsky in Winnipeg, and I was blessed to be part of some of the festivities and services. My oldest son was also given the opportunity to carry his relics for part of the procession to the enshrinement. In between services his remaining family members and other clergy who had served with him were all around telling acounts - some crying, some laughing. Most were survivors of that time of persecution of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and heroes of the Union.

Another time that I have been moved to tears, humbled, and exceedingly thankful for my Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

 

[eva6206213]

It’s really not a possibility, really hard to say about this~

 

[joshhackerspmdo]

I could never be Orthodox – way, way too much singing during Mass.

you have never been to a solemn high mass then. The whole thing is sung/chanted. and IMHO it is very beautiful just like the liturgies of the ECCs.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I know I am reviving this thread but I must say this.

I do not know why it did not come to me when I first saw this thread.

How much is Rome worth to me? A lot!

Without Rome I would not be able to follow my calling as I have discerned it.

I am a Byzantine Catholic but I am in a Roman religious order.

I feel called to the community life as well as the priesthood.

I do not feel called to the monastic life in some isolated area. I feel called to be an active contemplative. Exactly what we Carmelites are.

But if what holdencaulfield suggests ever happened, I would have a lot of discernment to do.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php

 

[gthever]

My Malankara identity is stronger and more important to me than my Catholic identity. I know this is improper and I may be incorrect theologically, but this is how I feel.

So if the Malankara Catholic Church were to be dissolved, I would join the Malankara Orthodox Church (the autocephalous one and not the autonomous branch of the Syriac Orthodox Church).