How Much Is Too Much? (Regarding Material Wealth)

[aboverubies]

at the same time, at what point are we ok with large incomes?

If someone makes a painting, and a buyer gives the artist $90,000 for that painting because that’s what it’s worth (worth is set by the buyer)… and the artist sells 5 paintings a year in that range and has no kids.
that means a $450,000 income.
should the artist work less? should he lower the quality of his work? should he not paint and go into another field.
this is a real example of someone rather close to me.

even tithing 10%… that leaves $400,000 a year left over… buy a million dollar house? why not, it’ll be paid for in 5 years. mercedes? a $700 car payment is easily met with no hardship and they are great cars that drive like a dream.
multiple homes… a vacation house in the mountains and one in new england… is that too much. once again, no hardship for the artist.

should the artist apologize for making a product that has a high value??? or should he do self inflicted penance by buying a rowhome in a bad neighborhood and driving a jalopy just so he can not flaunt his wealth?

Ummm…I think I must be missing something because this doesn’t sound like a problem…it sounds like a fantastic opportunity! The artist makes a large income? Great! Can’t he just decide how much to spend upon himself according to his own conscience and then give the rest away? Why would he apologise for producing works of high value? He’s obviously been given a gift and now it’s up to him to decide how he will share that gift around.

That sounds like a nice “problem” to have.

 

[leonie]

Ummm…I think I must be missing something because this doesn’t sound like a problem…it sounds like a fantastic opportunity! The artist makes a large income? Great! Can’t he just decide how much to spend upon himself according to his own conscience and then give the rest away? Why would he apologise for producing works of high value? He’s obviously been given a gift and now it’s up to him to decide how he will share that gift around.

That sounds like a nice “problem” to have.

yeah, in this case, I think it would be responsible for the artist to save a significant portion of his income up to a level because his income is not secure. These could be the only paintings he sells. I think he should still live at a modest level.

 

[leonie]

I received this from Presentation Ministries

presentationministries.com/obob/obob.asp?d=10/23/2006

Jesus said: “Avoid greed in all its forms” (Lk 12:15). Then Jesus called a man a “fool” because he was storing up his harvest to provide a “reserve for years to come” (see Lk 12:17-20).

It seems Jesus is opposed to savings and considers it a form of greed. This comes as a shock to us who were brought up with the idea that saving our money was a good, even virtuous, thing to do. Yet savings accounts, pensions, retirement funds, and even social security are more cultural than Christian.

In the Old Testament, Joseph saved for the seven-year famine (Gn 41:35-36), and we are told to imitate the ants who save up for winter (Prv 6:6-8). However, savings is not the main point of these passages, and they are superseded and fulfilled by the New Testament.

If we are to obey God’s word, it seems we must stop or at least severely curtail saving money, and live on a day-to-day basis (see Mt 6:33-34). This will immediately free up substantial amounts of money to feed the starving who won’t live till tomorrow if we don’t help them today

What do you think? pretty radical.

 

[Sir_Hubert]

Any thing can be too ‘Too Much’, even owning a paper clip, if you put it before God in your life.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Saying it and living it are also two different things.

How do you know if CC is living it or not.

 

[Jay2]

I dunno…

If I’ve got a roof over my head, food in the 'fridge, clothes on my back, and it “hurts” a little for a luxury expendature (new TV, car/truck, vacation) I’m OK.

I’ve (We’ve) never been one to live beyond our means. I’m the product of a hard-hit depression era immigrant family, my wife is daughter to a farming family. We were both raised knowing how hard it is to earn/save a buck. With the exception of the house it’s “cash only” around here.

We bought my truck (1999) and her car (2001) “cash on the barrelhead”. Our creditcard debt is $0.00… we buy on plastic, earn the premium points, float the money 30 days and PAY IT OFF.

We don’t have to/need to compete with the “Jones’s”.

Why does “Mrs. John Q. Public (hyphen) Mizzz Jane Doe” NEED a $60,000 Mercedes SUV (able to ford small rivers, climb a 45 deg. incline, and clear an 18" obstacle) to go to Starbucks/Nail Palace/Hair Wizards/Spa-Elite/soccer practice?

A funny reality check story… My neighbors across the street were contemplating an addition to their house. It would have been a new master bedroom/bath & kitchen expansion. About $40 grand. “Nope, can’t do it… too expensive”.

A while ago we were over for drinks & BS and “Sue” was all fired up about her latest “thing”.
She bought a timeshare in Cancun… “One week a year, all inclusive except $60 a day per person for food/drink/maid/etc… ISN’T THAT GREAT!!! ??” It cost $27,000…

Ok, $40K for expanding your home that you live in every day…
OR
$27K for an apartment you stay ONE WEEK in, that costs you another $1000 to just GET TO, and another $60 per day for the “all inclusive” fee…???

 

[leonie]

I dunno…
A funny reality check story… My neighbors across the street were contemplating an addition to their house. It would have been a new master bedroom/bath & kitchen expansion. About $40 grand. “Nope, can’t do it… too expensive”.

A while ago we were over for drinks & BS and “Sue” was all fired up about her latest “thing”.
She bought a timeshare in Cancun… “One week a year, all inclusive except $60 a day per person for food/drink/maid/etc… ISN’T THAT GREAT!!! ??” It cost $27,000…

Ok, $40K for expanding your home that you live in every day…
OR
$27K for an apartment you stay ONE WEEK in, that costs you another $1000 to just GET TO, and another $60 per day for the “all inclusive” fee…???

I can’t relate at all. Our biggest family vacation was a three hour drive and a two day trip to a family friendly amusement park.

I would love an addition for our house. But, to do so for our own comfort I think would be wrong. We have to consider how we would use the improvement for good works–would we be able to offer more hospitality, more opportunities for fellowship. Would we be better able to open our home to more children?

It does puzzle me a little to see a small family in a mansion like house.

 

[Lady_Cygnus]

First of all, it’s important to note that I did say that I can care less about initial income. There’s a big difference between using a massive income to fund charitable causes versus using a massive income to buy luxury yachts. My question to you would be: At what point do we hold our brothers and sisters accountable? Excuse me if I’m wrong but your message says to me “Never.” In this day of political correctness and “how dare you offend me” mentalities, has the very important issue of wealth been handed over to the world, even by us Catholics?

Well, there is still a problem with this, you have to know the person’s income, reasons for buying something, past history, amount donated, etc.

Take this for example. I know a woman who has an MBA and was a VP of a company, which of course comes with a six figure salary. She had a nice house, but the stock market dropped and she wanted a way to invest without the fear of loosing everything, so she pulled out and bought a larger house in a good location so in 7 years she could sell and retire. This house is nice and well decorated since she is very artistic, she should have probably gone into interior decoration. Someone walking into her house today would think, “look at this lady, spending all her money on material things and personal decorators, she should give it to the poor.”

For one, they don’t know why she bought the house (retirement account), they dont know how much she is spending on the house (all paint/repairs/buildouts/etc are done by the family), they don’t know how much she was giving to the poor when she bought it (a large amount each month plus volunteer time), and they don’t know how much she is giving now (she lost her six figure job and is operating on half salary - so she just does the volunteer work).

You can speak of giving more to the poor, but you can’t convict someone when you don’t know their heart, “Judge not, lest you be judged”. Let the Holy Spirit do that, he is the only one that can touch another’s heart.

 

[DonProfondo]

I received this from Presentation Ministries

presentationministries.com/obob/obob.asp?d=10/23/2006

What do you think? pretty radical.

Radical, yes, but I’m not sure the interpretation is correct.

That passage closes thus:

“But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” (Luke 12:20-22, RSV)

Above all, what do we owe God? Our souls. I think the point of this passage is that the man in question lost sight of that entirely. He had enough material goods and he thought he was set for life – earthly life. He was self-satisfied, satisfied with what he perceived to be his material self-sufficiency, and completely forgot about eternal life.

This calls to mind Matthew 6:19-21, where Jesus reminds us to “lay up for [ourselves] treasures in Heaven.”

Here is another perspective on the parable of the unjust steward.

As far as saving is concerned, yes, God provides. And sometimes He provides in advance. If you spend it or give it away as soon as you get it, you run the risk of falling into the trap of testing God.

 

[Arlene]

This doesn’t address the question, but its one of those out of the mouths of babes situations…

Last year my husband and I were driving with our then 7 yo in the back seat. She speaks up,

“Mom, are we rich?”

Not knowing where she was coming from or headed with this question, I did the ultimate mom stall. I repeated her question.

“Rich?”

To which she answered her own question,

“Well, we have a house and we have food. We have everything we need. I guess that makes us rich.”

 

[grahampoor]

I think I know what you mean. I struggle with the same thing.
To think of a simple example I went out to dinner tonight with my wife and kids and spent $40.00. We do that a couple of times a month.
We don’t need to and I am sure that money could save a life or convert a soul. So can I ever justify that? I kind of think not. But then should we never eat out? From my reading of the life of Jesus and the Saints, poverty does seem to be part of Christian calling. Part that I don’t participate enough in. For me it’s one of those things I feel vaguely guilty about, but maybe don’t have the clarity to see as sin.
So I have what I think is the same question, maybe other folks have had the struggle and resolved it.
Thanks for bringing the issue up.
(BTW: I have also noticed a lot of hostility in forums when quoting challenging teaching of the Church and bible).

 

[T1Catholic]

Good thread. I grew up in a working class family with not much money and therefore was never taught what to do with excess money. I earn a very high income and I fell into the trap of getting caught up in luxury items and wanton spending. I used to feel very guilty about my income but then I realized I can do a lot to help the church through donations. With three young kids and a fourth on the way I don’t have as much time for volunteering with the Church as I used to, but I believe that maybe a part of my role is to give money to the Church because money is always needed - we hear almost once a month how our Church loves volunteers for the food bank they run but what they really need is money to buy the food and they need parishoners to step up and give.

By the way, someone mentioned $300 shoes as being excessive (or something to that affect). I have read that the Pope wears Prada shoes (which I’m sure the Prada company gives to him for free - I know I wouldn’t turn town a free pair of Pradas!).

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I have to tell you, this has given me thought for a bit, over a week.

I have come to a conclusion: One has too much money when one is made miserable by it, more often than bouyed or joyed by it; is controlled by it, to the point where he or she does is worry about it to the exclusion of everything else; or/and has no idea what to do with it, and can’t think of what would be best for it and him or her. :twocents: It is why God has graced me, by not choosing me the next big lottery winner.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

By the way, someone mentioned $300 shoes as being excessive (or something to that affect). I have read that the Pope wears Prada shoes (which I’m sure the Prada company gives to him for free - I know I wouldn’t turn town a free pair of Pradas!).

Considering they probably cost $10 to make and they are donated then more power to him.

I think this also brings up another concern that Protestants will often bring up about Catholics: we seem so concerned about social justice and yet our high ranking clerics tend to have some seemingly super luxurious stuff. What are your thoughts on that?
E.E.N.S.:

Eh?! You sound just like me! I was considering becoming a religious brother as well, lol, (though now it looks like I am going to go a differen’t direction ) …also I LOVE mountain biking as well. I live in the Phoenix Metro area (AZ) and I ride a GF GED hardtail (with a full SAINT conversion, yeah, I like the name )…oh, and I like video games too, lol.

Okay, back to the topic.

That’s funny. I just transitioned from primarily freeriding to almost exclusively XC. I went from a 34 lb. beast to a 22 pound Gazelle. I ride a 2001 Cannondale F2000 SL Team Sobe Edition. I just got it on eBay and it’s a dream to ride.

 

[E.E.N.S]

That’s funny. I just transitioned from primarily freeriding to almost exclusively XC. I went from a 34 lb. beast to a 22 pound Gazelle. I ride a 2001 Cannondale F2000 SL Team Sobe Edition. I just got it on eBay and it’s a dream to ride.

Yeah? Well, I only really have much background in BMX, but I was off the scene for a long time and when I came back I picked up with a mountain bike, lol.

BTW, do you ever frequent the forums on mtbr.com? (My handle is The Saint.)

 

[CollegeCatholic]

Yeah? Well, I only really have much background in BMX, but I was off the scene for a long time and when I came back I picked up with a mountain bike, lol.

BTW, do you ever frequent the forums on mtbr.com? (My handle is The Saint.)

I’m constantly there for reviews but I really should get into the forum. Right now I do the forum thing with video games and obviously my Faith so might as well include another big part of my life as well!

 

[ecp007]

There’s a big difference between using a massive income to fund charitable causes versus using a massive income to buy luxury yachts. My question to you would be: At what point do we hold our brothers and sisters accountable? Excuse me if I’m wrong but your message says to me “Never.” In this day of political correctness and “how dare you offend me” mentalities, has the very important issue of wealth been handed over to the world, even by us Catholics?

Don’t worry about the spec in your neighbor’s eye, worry about the log in your own!

As I recall, in the parables of the workers, Jesus took the talents from the unproductive worker, and gave them to the worker that had doubled his. I also recall that Solomon, and David were know for the riches and splendor of their kingdoms. Even Jesus in His humility, was given Gold by the Magi at His birth. And, He made more wine for a friend’s wedding after all of the wine they had purchased had already been drunken!

The bible asks us to tithe, and encourages sacrificial giving. The most important commandmant is to Love God above all else, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Most importantly, the bible leaves judgement and accountability to God, because only God can see into a man’s heart.

 

[ecp007]

I received this from Presentation Ministries

presentationministries.com/obob/obob.asp?d=10/23/2006

What do you think? pretty radical.

I think the bible refers over and over to God wanting and providing abundance to his children. What He can not stand is when we put money or material things in a place of higher priority than God.

'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance."

There is nothing wrong with abundance and material possessions as long as you have your priorities straight. Howver, Jesus warns us that is harder to do, for people who do have great wealth. It’s like saying you don’t get fat by being a baker, but, it’s harder to stay thin because of all the tempting treats.

 

[KristinM]

Otherwise, do you have practical advise? In your amassed wisdom, how do you make sure you are not turning your back on your brother in need? Do you follow a tithe policy (10%)? Do you identify essentials in your budget and then allot the remaining amount to primarily charity and a small amount to luxury?

Right now, I have such a small income with so many essentials (student loans, gas money, car insurance, health insurance, etc.) that I have hardly anything left to work with when it’s all said and done. Right now I’m struggling to figure out how to spend my money in a way that doesn’t ignore the great needs of others while still enjoying the fruits of my labor…

If you give to God first, you will always have enough for esssentials.

But back to the original question…as long as you are a faithful steward of your income and keep God as your #1 priority, then no amount is too much.

  “God gave me my money. I believe the power to make money is a gift from God . to be developed and used to the best of our ability for the good of mankind. Having been endowed with the gift I possess, I believe it is my duty to make money and still more money and to use the money I make for the good of my fellow man according to the dictates of my conscience.”  John D. Rockefeller

Kristin

 

[manualman]

I think some are forgetting what Jesus said to those critical of the woman who poured expensive perfume on His feet. Those critics used similar logic to what I see being used here. Jesus wasn’t impressed.

When it comes to money and chosen poverty, you can only call yourself on the carpet. The church must talk about generosity and the poverty of greed, but specific judgements are only appropriate to oneself. (Or perhaps from one’s spiritual director in advanced cases).

The best way to spread the message about the virtue of poverty is to live it and let people see. Preaching about it spoils the appeal.

Read ‘Simplicity’ by John Michael Talbot.