How much Liberals love the Church!

[Andreas_Hofer]

I love this thread, it makes me feel as if I’ve just stepped through Alice’s Looking Glass. In this inside-out world there is an ill-defined group of “thems” that is vilified, hated, despised and mocked by a group of people claiming to be exemplars of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of this is because these “thems” are said to disagree with certain tenets of Holy Mother Church. All the more bizarre is the fact that this discussion is taking place in the section called Traditional Catholicism, a set of threads most noted for claiming that current practices of Holy Mother Church are flawed and defective.

I applaud the ingenuous tongue-in-cheek audacity of the individual who started this thread. Truly one of the better rat traps I’ve seen in recent months. Bravo.

First of all, I did not get the impression that the OP was trying to satirically smear liberal Catholics.

Secondly, dissident Catholics are not some rarae aves about whom one has read on fringe internet sites but never actually encountered in real life. Rather, they run national and international publications, hold professorships, etc. (need I say pastorates?) from which they are not simply “said” to disagree with certain tenets of Holy Mother Church but from which they often quite openly disagree with obvious non-negotiables, the age’s penchant for pelvic issues taking center stage. Maybe, just maybe, you really do live in a Catholic world where you have never in your life met a single Catholic who dissented from the teaching of the Catholic Church or even heard the names of world-famous dissenters like Hans Kueng, but forgive me for thinking that such a world most likely lies through Alice’s looking glass.

 

[KestrelRose]

What each one of us should keep in mind is: We are not responsible for the bad manners of other people. If an individual from one position or another wish to behave and say things that are rude and offensive, that is their problem, it does not give us the right to behave in like manner.

If our position is correct, we don’t have to resort to hurling insults and be sarcastic. As adults, it is possible to state what we believe in an intelligent and thoughtful manner.

 

[piouswoman]

What each one of us should keep in mind is: We are not responsible for the bad manners of other people. If an individual from one position or another wish to behave and say things that are rude and offensive, that is their problem, it does not give us the right to behave in like manner.

If our position is correct, we don’t have to resort to hurling insults and be sarcastic. As adults, it is possible to state what we believe in an intelligent and thoughtful manner.

While I could appreciate your lovey dovey, lets all get along attitude in some areas of life, it just doesn’t cut it when one is defending the Faith. One can no longer look the other way and think that everything is fine, it is not, the church is in a shambles and the bad fruits of the Second Vatican Council have long begun to mold and fester. The destruction of the traditional faith for the last forty plus years has yielded spineless, weak, tolerant Catholics who no longer recognize right from wrong. It is diabolical disorientation. The modern Church is built on modern philosophy which contradicts truth…really, now it appears that the Church has become like a house built on sand, ready for the collapse. Since when has it become necessary to speak only in sweet and loving tones? Do you think that has proven successful all these long years? It certainly has not. We are the Church militant, not the church of cowardly, tolerant behavior. One cannot tolerate error.

 

[Yours_Truly]

While I could appreciate your lovey dovey, lets all get along attitude in some areas of life, it just doesn’t cut it when one is defending the Faith. One can no longer look the other way and think that everything is fine, it is not, the church is in a shambles and the bad fruits of the Second Vatican Council have long begun to mold and fester. The destruction of the traditional faith for the last forty plus years has yielded spineless, weak, tolerant Catholics who no longer recognize right from wrong. It is diabolical disorientation. The modern Church is built on modern philosophy which contradicts truth…really, now it appears that the Church has become like a house built on sand, ready for the collapse. Since when has it become necessary to speak only in sweet and loving tones? Do you think that has proven successful all these long years? It certainly has not. We are the Church militant, not the church of cowardly, tolerant behavior. One cannot tolerate error.

Preach it sister

 

[CatholicMonarch]

To Piouswoman,
You stole my thunder! Loved every word of it! We need more warriors like you in the Church.

 

[Timothysis]

Why would you try to apologize for those who really have no love for Tradition, and therefore, no love for Holy Mother Church?

I don’t need to meditate upon it…it is nothing more than sugary, effeminate, modernist Churchspeak. It is flowery and sentimental, it lacks logic. Liberals don’t love the Church, they love liberals, they love liberal theology, and liberal modern philosophy upon which their minds have been formed. They embrace error.

Catholics cannot and should not love error, error is not beautiful, and it cannot be apologized for. There is no excusing error and it is wrong to defend it.

It is always the same technique…attack the person when you don’t like what they are saying.

My attack was based on a post made, the post was truly upside down and completely ignorant. So instead of offering a reason for your disagreement and dislike of what I wrote, you attack me personally. That is pretty sad. You should be defending Holy Mother Church from liberalism, as liberalism is a sin.

If you cannot see the anger and the hatred in these posts, then I truly feel for you. Is that what true “conservatism” is?

 

[KestrelRose]

Well, it sort of depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to drive people away from the beauty of tradition, present this tradition in a cloak of anger and dismay. If you wish to bring people back to this tradition become excellent examples of that beauty.

Always keep firmly fixed in your mind that God is more than capable of dealing with those who wish to harm His beloved Church. It is important to understand what our role is. As I said before, as a musician, I believe that my role is to present to the best of my abilities and understanding what is beautiful.

I do know that anger, sarcasm and fear will work against the goals of bringing all the people to a closer union with tradition.

 

[Chancellor]

From the point of view of this Catholic, one who calls the teaching and practice of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church “diabolic” is certainly not “defending the faith”. This is starting to look like anti-Catholic hate rhetoric disguised as Christianity.

“…he who loveth not knoweth not God for God is love”, is, I think, a good place to start, and I still find it inappropriate for Catholics to be spouting hate rhetoric, especially toward those of our family with whom we differ. Even a brief peek at church history will show a similar reaction to each and every council in the history of the church, and the overwhelming majority of us who were alive before VII don’t think of those days as some sort of paradise lost.

 

[Extempore]

…]the overwhelming majority of us who were alive before VII don’t think of those days as some sort of paradise lost.

I can’t speak for those born before Vatican II, but I know that an “overwhelming majority” of those born after the council feel like children who lost our birthright. I don’t think we can overlook the dismay. As pious mentioned above, terrible things have happened.

 

[DL82]

I’m sorry, but Christ never said “I am Love;” He said “I am Truth.” Charity without Truth isn’t Charity,

Christ is God, and God is Love (1 John 4).

“Faith is the middle ground between being too afraid to ask questions and being too afraid to hear to the answers.” - me.

 

[Yours_Truly]

Christ is God, and God is Love (1 John 4).

“Faith is the middle ground between being too afraid to ask questions and being too afraid to hear to the answers.” - me.

Pray every day for the “grace of greater faith”. That is a rare and precious gift in our day. We must pray for it daily, and trust that God will grant our request.

No offense, but your quote actually shows a tepid faith. When God grants you the grace of greater faith (which He will if you pray for it daily), you will believe with ABSOLUTE firmness all that the Church teaches. Any attack from an unbeliever will be met by you, not with hesitant tepidity or fear, but with a confident assurance of your belief and even a pitty for the unbeliever and his errors. That will be a sign that your faith is becoming strong.

 

[ncjohn]

Wow…it’s hard to believe some of the things I’m reading in this thread.

First off, we have the basic problem that “liberalism” is a specific heresy that is pretty much has nothing to do with the people being described. What we have instead is people who question or dissent in some particular area of the Church but with no proof whatsoever that they subscribe to “liberalism”.

Then we have the problem that some people seem more than willing to assume that because someone hasn’t come to a full understanding on some particular topic that 1) they don’t love God and the Church and that 2) they have evil motives and are attempting to destroy the Church. I personally have never met anyone who didn’t fail in some area, sometimes very consistently, yet I have never been able to come to a conclusion that they were therefore inherently “evil” and needed to be driven out.

I have to wonder how the “church militant” approach mentioned here is working out in bringing people to the Truth. How successful is that approach in bringing people into the dialogue where they can get off the defensive long enough to even consider what is being said? How many people have they brought back into the fold with this vitriol? Or maybe bringing them back isn’t desired, but this is the fruit of the desire for the “smaller, purer church” and the real intent is to just push them out of the boat.

What I see in this approach is the “older son” from the prodigal son story who just couldn’t stomach the fact that the Father might also love the younger son after his “dissent”. Whose pride in his obedience caused a feeling that he had “earned” the Father’s love while the prodigal didn’t “deserve” it.

I guess Jesus was a just a mushy old softie when he said that he came to save the sinners rather than the righteous. When he didn’t tell the Samaritan woman or the the Syro-phoneacian woman or the Roman centurion to go come to perfect faith and convert to the “one true faith” before he would heal them or grant their requests. When he said that tax collectors and prostitutes were going to enter heaven ahead of many who thought themselves “righteous”.

It’s kind of disappointing to hear some who claim to adhere to Tradition still making statements that sound more like “Thank you Lord for not making me like those other sinners”.

It’s not a matter of “tolerance” or “let’s just all get along”. It’s a matter of how one gains the credibility with someone to be able to speak the Truth to them. Name-calling and putting people on the defensive has never been a sound approach to any kind of human relations. If you wouldn’t want someone to speak to your spouse or children that way it might be wise to consider whether it’s a good approach to use on someone else’s loved one. Especially since they are God’s loved one.

Peace,

 

[daughteroftruth]

If you cannot see the anger and the hatred in these posts, then I truly feel for you. Is that what true “conservatism” is?

So, because she has love and zeal for the Lord and HIS Church-and defends them both-while you remain indifferent, we’re to conclude that she’s hateful? I dread to think your opinion of Christ when he threw out the moneychangers from the temple using a whip…what a hateful man

 

[daughteroftruth]

Christ is God, and God is Love (1 John 4).

“Faith is the middle ground between being too afraid to ask questions and being too afraid to hear to the answers.” - me.

One could say Christ is love, He is mercy, and He is justice. However:

Christ never said “I am Love;” He said “I am Truth.” Charity without Truth isn’t Charity.

 

[Don_L]

Do liberals love the Church?

There are so many ways to argue against this proposition.
The first is “If you love Me, keep my commandments”
a. Liberals loathe God’s commandments, chastity is a sin in there warped minds.
b. Millstones around there necks for the condom distribution to children games alone.
c. The Sacrament of Marriage? Try homosexual marriage should be equal if you’re a liberal.
d. The principle of susidiarity: (solutions/decisions at the lowest level) big government will tell you how to raise your kids.
e.Seek the truth always (liberals love to pervert truth -think political correctness and son’t ever show the “Silent scream”

 

[Don_L]

“This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.”–Robert Bellarmine "

One would certainly also have to listen to St. Paul on the requirement to admonish and correct error (albiet to be done in love)

Remember also that Christ reminded us “Do you think I came to bring peace?”
He expects us to do battle for Him, not fail to fight lest we offend a liberal -it is their best weapon - They throw peaceful terms at believers all the time. Try tolerance -sensitivity -choice -fairness - for the children - a woman’s right - we care -
Frankly -deceit is what they speak. They seek to replace God with a secular culture/socialism whatever. They, unlike God, demand equal outcomes. etc.

Being offensive to liberals is the price of being Christian.

And finally, never confuse loving the sin (liberalism) with loiving the person (the liberal)

The essence of liberalism is to have all critics (the Church) be quiet and allow them to live in their sin. The Church is under attack by liberalism from within and from without. God and the Pope (JPII) demands that we call black, black, and white white. This offends liberals to no end. People who call murder of the most innocent “Choice” a good, want us to be nice and hold their hands, or as Bill and Hillary claim to believe, abortions should be rare. It is offensive to them when someone speaks the truth - It was also offensive to Lucifer.

 

[Chancellor]

I can’t speak for those born before Vatican II, but I know that an “overwhelming majority” of those born after the council feel like children who lost our birthright. I don’t think we can overlook the dismay. As pious mentioned above, terrible things have happened.

---

Terrible things have happened indeed, and wonderful things have happened. It is convenient and I think simplistic to blame the last half of the twentieth century on Vatican II. We like to pretend that If it hadn’t been for VII, many of the bad things would not have happened.

I disagree. The World Wars that destroyed traditional European culture, the Holocaust, The Bomb, The Pill, The so-called Sexual Revolution, the drug culture, the counter culture, mass communications, etc, etc, etc, have so completely changed the planet that many thoughtful orthodox Catholics believe that things would have been even worse if VII had not happened.

Now, to give the Traditional Catholic position its fair voice, I am the first to say that more than one baby was thrown out with the bath water. Many (but not all) bishops and priests did indeed go too far. Those of us that try to hold to a sane orthodoxy are the first to admit that these have not been easy times. I can be as or more critical of liberals, especially when what they do stops looking like the Gospel of Christ. I also am a convert (26 years ago) from the Anglican Communion and love dignified worship.

 

[rwoehmke]

Unfortunately it is customary to draw the line between what is liberal or left just to the left of one’s own life stance. Most of the real people fall somewhere in the middle of the bell curve while a few are stuck in the extremes and in my opinion are pretty much ignored or written off by the majority of their fellow church members. Also in my opinion most of these folks on the extremes do not waste their time on the forums of Catholic Answers.

 

[thunderballs75]

LOL Well they sure do continue to play an active part. If they didn’t love the Church, traditionalists wouldn’t have to deal with them!

I agree with some things liberals have put in. I think the pax was the good thing about the N.O. mass. Of course, they should probably do this before mass or something, but it would be a restoration of a tradition in my opinion. Also, (I’m not sure if the liberals did this) they have made the theory of evolution far more acceptable in the Church, which is very good. Liberals have also made the Church more concerned with social justice, which our Lord Jesus Christ would certainly approve of.

Vatican II was a valid council. It had good fruits, but it also had some bad fruits. Unfortunately, they’ve protestantised the Church quite a bit. The Mass was lost. The language, music, and culture was lost. This has led to the Church being less uniform and One. This is really very bad, and probably the most unfortunate thing to me. Also, many doctrines were watered down. The ecumenism is good but has also been kind of radical. Hopefully the Holy Father will fix these problems inside of the Church.

 

[DL82]

Pray every day for the “grace of greater faith”. That is a rare and precious gift in our day. We must pray for it daily, and trust that God will grant our request.

No offense, but your quote actually shows a tepid faith. When God grants you the grace of greater faith (which He will if you pray for it daily), you will believe with ABSOLUTE firmness all that the Church teaches. Any attack from an unbeliever will be met by you, not with hesitant tepidity or fear, but with a confident assurance of your belief and even a pitty for the unbeliever and his errors. That will be a sign that your faith is becoming strong.

I completely agree with you, we have to pray for greater faith, but we also have to work for it, that means studying the bits of our faith that we don’t yet understand or have questions about, and carrying on studying them until we do. That way we can answer unbelievers with confident assurance, but without belittling them for asking the question in the first place.