How much longer before the Church recognizes a homosexual Saint?

[EIF5A]

Obviously, folks who suffer from same-sex attraction can pray to any of the Saints already. Maybe there isn’t a “patron Saint” for this disorder, but that doesn’t mean those people are left in the dark.

And of course, Saints aren’t canonized based on how useful it would be to have a new one.

Sometimes I pray to St. Mary of Egypt — even though she didn’t have SSA and she’s of different gender but well, similar struggles, I guess. I think she would understand how wretched I am.

 

[Abba]

Sometimes I pray to St. Mary of Egypt — even though she didn’t have SSA and she’s of different gender but well, similar struggles, I guess. I think she would understand how wretched I am.

Thank you for introducing me to Saint Mary of Egypt. Absolutely! She is a good saint to pray to for handling sexual passion and temptations. It’s an extraordinary story, specially because of her sins and how she could not enter The Church of Holy Sepulchre. And now, “there is a chapel dedicated to her at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, commemorating the moment of her conversion.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Egypt

 

[Abba]

There’s a story I read somewhere about a modern-day Orthodox saint.

A homosexual man visited this monk, and the monk ended up slapping him.

The man was upset. He asked, “Why did you do that?”

The monk, knowing through divine inspiration that the man was despairing, said [paraphrased], “If you commit suicide, you will be lost. But if you carry this cross, it will lead you to salvation.”

The man became sanctified and led a noble life.

I like this story. I tried to find the source but, I looked here and I looked there and couldn’t find it anywhere.

I did come upon some interesting Orthodox articles which I have enjoyed. In one of the articles I read for the first time the phrase “pastoral malpractice”. orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2014/11/texas-orthodox-priests-reject-fr-aridas-scandalous-teaching-on-homosexuality/

Anti-Catholic interest groups attempt to use the scandals in the Church as an argument to eliminate the requirement of celibacy of the priesthood. However, it’s interesting to read about the problem in the Orthodox churches even though the priests are allowed to marry. sfgate.com/health/article/Church-settles-sex-abuse-suit-against-priest-3194082.php It is clear to me that people have been attracted to the priesthood to hide, to be in a position of power over others, to hurt the Church etc…The scandals do not reflect in no way shape or form the spiritual beauty of the celibacy of the priesthood.

 

[ethereality]

EIF5A, I will try to explain my position once again, because I don’t see that you understand it.

EIF5A:

Using the phrase “same-sex attraction” does not change anything. Rose is a rose is a red flower with thorns. …] To tell someone to not use the word “homosexual” is like telling someone to deny reality. It won’t go away, nor will it change (outside of some divine miracle).

You are demonstrating what I said about “thinking inside of a box” by self-identifying as homosexual, particularly by your statement, “To not call myself or others one would be to deny reality.”

You are not “calling a rose a rose” by using the word homosexual. If you wish to call a rose a rose, then you would simply say about yourself, “I am a man.” If you wanted to go into detail about desires, “someone who doesn’t experience attractions towards this but do towards that.” The sociological construct of ‘homosexual’ includes a great deal more, postulates more than is clearly observed.

By not declaring the sociological theories as true that such a collection of phenomena is inherent, impossible to change, etc., you are allowing yourself the freedom “to be more than a homosexual”, if you understand my meaning, and to think and act independently of political pressure. (By the way, I am still not aware of the science demonstrating that “people are born as homosexuals”.)

 

[EIF5A]

EIF5A, I will try to explain my position once again, because I don’t see that you understand it.

You are demonstrating what I said about “thinking inside of a box” by self-identifying as homosexual, particularly by your statement, “To not call myself or others one would be to deny reality.”

You are not “calling a rose a rose” by using the word homosexual. If you wish to call a rose a rose, then you would simply say about yourself, “I am a man.” If you wanted to go into detail about desires, “someone who doesn’t experience attractions towards this but do towards that.” The sociological construct of ‘homosexual’ includes a great deal more, postulates more than is clearly observed.

By not declaring the sociological theories as true that such a collection of phenomena is inherent, impossible to change, etc., you are allowing yourself the freedom “to be more than a homosexual”, if you understand my meaning, and to think and act independently of political pressure. (By the way, I am still not aware of the science demonstrating that “people are born as homosexuals”.)

Most people understand the word “homosexual” to mean “attracted to the same sex”. It’s a simple adjective for describing a particular phenomenon. This “sociological theory” you refer to is irrelevant to what the word actually conveys. If you want to read something more into a word than there actually is, then go ahead, but don’t tell people not to use a certain word because you are uncomfortable with it and ascribe to it more than what it’s supposed to convey.

If you wanted to go into detail about desires, “someone who doesn’t experience attractions towards this but do towards that.”

That’s the definition of “homosexual”. Being attracted towards the same gender. That’s all it means. That the secular world advocates for homosexual behavior (and other sexually illicit acts) is irrelevant to the definition and use of the word.

 

[ethereality]

Hm, you seem to be getting angry, EI, to the point that you are beginning to fall into straw man fallacies. Responding to what you’ve written, a fundamental problem I see is that we are not static beings, unlike the ideas of “a heterosexual” and “a homosexual” which imply permanency. It seems better not to argue any further, though.

Connecting this Christian anthropology back to the OP: So there is no such thing as “a homosexual saint”, because homosexual attractions and temptations are not part of who someone is, unlike race or gender. Hence there will never be “an alcoholic saint”, “a kleptomaniac saint”, or “a homosexual saint”: There are only saints, male and female, of various ethnicities from various countries. The Church may recognize a saint who struggled with homosexual desires, but this history does not make him “a homosexual saint” any more than someone who struggles with alcohol would be “an alcoholic saint”.

 

[sugarcat]

I’m distressed that this hasn’t been pointed out yet: People are not “homosexual” like they are “American” or “African”. People struggle with homosexuality; people are not homosexual. Homosexuality and “being homosexual” is a sociological theory and socially constructed identity, not an intrinsic characteristic or innate fact.

When will the Church canonize a man or woman who struggled with same-sex attractions? Probably not for several decades.

If you need encouragement in dealing with same-sex attractions, see the courage/encourage organizations, and start reading good books!

Exactly! I was so glad Pope Francis picked up on that and emphasized that “homosexuals” are really human persons, they are not identified by their sex urges. The very fact that those urges are taken for IDENTITIES is the part that has always bothered me most about the whole “gay” movement. Like sex is the ONLY thing defining them!

 

[Mimi]

I’m sure these ceremonies were done in heretical sects; this is the 1st I’ve heard of any reference to these actions. Found the link to this from a fb post:

christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html

At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope’s parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, “taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together” according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.

Prof. Boswell’s academic study is so well researched and documented that it poses fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their own modern attitudes towards homosexuality.

At the end of this article, the “The Secret Gospel of Mark, The Other Bible”, Willis Barnstone, is referenced, which confirms my suspicions.

lgac.org/marriage/unions.html
“Same Sex Unions in Premodern Europe,” by John Boswell, Appendix of Translations.

I’m not interested in getting into a rebuttal war on fb, but we should be able to refute these things when/if they come up, as they likely will. Folks such as Boswell will probably not accept the fact of the consistent teaching of the Church.

Happy Holy Week!
Mimi

 

[Mimi]

Oh great! I found an article refuting Boswell’s work:

newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?print=1&did=1294-viscuso

Failed Attempt to Rewrite History

December 1994
By Patrick Viscuso

Patrick Viscuso, of Chantilly, Vir*ginia, is a priest and canonist of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America. He has written numerous articles in the area of Byzantine marriage theology and canon law in scholarly journals. He is cited three times in Boswell’s book.

Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe. By John Boswell. Villard. 412 pages. $25.

Mr. Viscuso goes into some detail regarding the term “Adelphopoiesis”.

Hope this helps others!

Mimi

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

They can pray to a patron saint of chastity or for mental disorders.

 

[AngelusDomini]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned St Sebastian yet!

Taking a point above, if homosexuality is a mental disorder does that not diminish culpability (if the desire is acted upon)? Just a side thought.

Even though the CCC says ‘Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained’, that doesn’t rule out that it could be a ‘mental disorder’.

There have probably been any number of saints who were gay or lesbian but the fact remains that they are saints because of their devotion to Christ, they weren’t defined by their sexuality. I really do not understand this need to categorise people by their sexuality or any other factor which aims to contain someone within a neat little box. Part of our faith is trying to understand complexities - thee are a multitude of saints to help with that (although I appreciate what the OP is saying).

 

[solayan]

All saints are models of holiness for the universal Church so of course we can pray to any/all of them and look to their examples.But when someone suffers from a particular ailment or temptation it can be especially encouraging to know that there’s a saint who relates to what you’re going through, because they went through it themselves.

Here’s a personal example:
I suffer from migraines, and find particular solace in prayer to St. Theresa of Avila when I’ve got one, because she had them too and I feel like she can empathize with me in a special way. Of course I know that all the saint can empathize with me, and that I can ask any of them for their intercession, but there’s just something special about reaching out to someone who’s been where you are.

If/when someone who struggled with SSA (and was open about it) is canonized, I suspect they will be a special comfort to others still struggling.

 

[EIF5A]

They can pray to a patron saint of chastity or for mental disorders.

I really hope you don’t suggest to a person struggling with homosexual attraction to pray to be freed from mental disorder. That most likely will not go well.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I really hope you don’t suggest to a person struggling with homosexual attraction to pray to be freed from mental disorder. That most likely will not go well.

I would certainly recommend for them to pray to a patron saint of chastity or mental disorders since that is what they are struggling with.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Active homosexual? Never (arguably a mortal sin)

Not active? She probably already has.

 

[EIF5A]

I would certainly recommend for them to pray to a patron saint of chastity or mental disorders since that is what they are struggling with.

Chastity, yes. But why are only homosexuals stamped with the mental disorder stigma?

Every sin results form selfishness and selfishness is a mental disorder. Everyone has a mental disorder of some flavor. Everyone has a fallen nature. Everyone is disordered.

But only homosexuals have that type of sin that differentiates from the normal sins.

Is telling a homosexual to pray for their “mental disorder” a prudent thing?

 

[Sneaux]

I’ve struggled with SSA throughout my life, and when I was coming to know the truth, I did look for a saint that dealt with it, but never found any, so since then it’s been my goal to one day be that saint.

 

[Sneaux]

Of course that won’t happen though, I actually never thought about connecting homosexuality with the saints who had problems with chastity, so thank you for those who have said that.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Chastity, yes. But why are only homosexuals stamped with the mental disorder stigma?

Every sin results form selfishness and selfishness is a mental disorder. Everyone has a mental disorder of some flavor. Everyone has a fallen nature. Everyone is disordered.

But only homosexuals have that type of sin that differentiates from the normal sins.

Is telling a homosexual to pray for their “mental disorder” a prudent thing?

Selfishness is not a mental disorder. A mental illness (disorder) is defined as, “Any of various psychiatric disorders or diseases, usually characterized by impairment of thought, mood, or behavior”. Homosexual tendencies are recognized as a mental disorder (removed from the DSM due to social pressure, not scientific evidence) and the statistics of the mental & physical health of homosexuals support this.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also recognizes it as a disorder in 2358, “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.” It says the inclination is objectively disordered while the acts are intrinsically disordered.

Not everyone has a mental disorder. Having a fallen nature in which we are prone to sin doesn’t mean we are mentally ill. Homosexuals need to know the truth just as much as we do, and the truth is that homosexual tendencies are a mental disorder. There is a patron saint for mental disorders, so it is only natural that they should have recourse to her intercession. They don’t have to, but they are under her jurisdiction so to speak.

 

[EIF5A]

Selfishness is not a mental disorder. A mental illness (disorder) is defined as, “Any of various psychiatric disorders or diseases, usually characterized by impairment of thought, mood, or behavior”. Homosexual tendencies are recognized as a mental disorder (removed from the DSM due to social pressure, not scientific evidence) and the statistics of the mental & physical health of homosexuals support this.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also recognizes it as a disorder in 2358, “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.” It says the inclination is objectively disordered while the acts are intrinsically disordered.

Not everyone has a mental disorder. Having a fallen nature in which we are prone to sin doesn’t mean we are mentally ill. Homosexuals need to know the truth just as much as we do, and the truth is that homosexual tendencies are a mental disorder. There is a patron saint for mental disorders, so it is only natural that they should have recourse to her intercession. They don’t have to, but they are under her jurisdiction so to speak.

I asked whether it is prudent to suggest that a homosexual pray to a saint for a mental disorder.

Being mindful of how one can be perceived is beneficial, especially when it comes to approaching people living in sin. Also, what good comes out of telling a gay person struggling to live chastely that they have a mental disorder? Does a homeless person need to be told they don’t have a mailing address?

Throwing the Catechism at someone’s face is not very helpful, IMHO.

The Catechism doesn’t say gays and lesbians have a screw loose in the head and/or are incapable of perceiving reality. Maybe because it might instead turn the person away from seeking God’s mercy.