How much Money should a Christian have?

[Cristian_B]

Jesus never told us to be poor, but He told us not to love money more than Him. Remember Job? He was pleasing in God’s eyes and he was rich. Solomon could be another example. What God wants from us is not to love the money. This is all.

 

[Schn]

Agreed. Since the Pope owns nothing we should strive to do the same.

Peace
James

Standard of living, not ownership.

 

[alitaptap]

Jesus never told us to be poor, but He told us not to love money more than Him. Remember Job? He was pleasing in God’s eyes and he was rich. Solomon could be another example. What God wants from us is not to love the money. This is all.

The ultimate purpose of wealth must be to love.

 

[JRKH]

Standard of living, not ownership.

Right. The Popes “standard of Living” is one completely devoted to service. He lives in a house that does not belong to him. Wears clothes not of his own choosing and designed less for comfort than for “his station in life”.
His “standard of living” involves a daily schedule that most people would flee from. Up early, prayers, mass, conferences, audiences, trips, meetings, photo shoots, more prayers, etc. etc. etc. Much of the time planned by others who then tell him where he is to be and when and for how long.
While it is certainly true that he “runs” the church in that he sets certain directions and is expected to make policy on various subjects, even this causes him to work very hard to research, consider, pray about and write such policy - which then is reviewed and commented on before publication.

Ah yes - The Pope has a “standard of living” that we should all emulate. Own Little and serve much.
The surroundings, whether poor, modest or palatial, mean little - except to those who place their treasure in such things.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The ultimate purpose of wealth must be to love.

Nicely put.

 

[JRKH]

Jesus never told us to be poor, but He told us not to love money more than Him. Remember Job? He was pleasing in God’s eyes and he was rich. Solomon could be another example. What God wants from us is not to love the money. This is all.

And what (or who) did God, through Jesus, tell us TO Love, and how are we to Love?

Peace
James

 

[Cristian_B]

And what (or who) did God, through Jesus, tell us TO Love, and how are we to Love?

Peace
James

All I’m saying is that God cares what we do with the money, not how much do we have.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
And what (or who) did God, through Jesus, tell us TO Love, and how are we to Love?

I do understand what you are saying - And I don’t disagree with you.

I’m still interested in your answer to my question though.

Peace
James

 

[stinkcat_14]

I think the first step in discerning this question is to first figure out the real source of scarcity in our lives. For example, if I build a 40,000 square foot house because I want to impress my neighbor, then that is always going to be sinful, if only because its never going to work anyway. Most of us are too wrapped up in ourselves to care too much about what others have. On the other hand, if we ask ourselves how can we can best do the will of God before we spend, then it may well be that we buy something fancy, not because of our sinful desires, but because that is the best use of our limited time, talent and treasure. On the other hand, we might just as well find that we need fewer of the goodies that we used to think of as necessities.

 

[JRKH]

I think the first step in discerning this question is to first figure out the real source of scarcity in our lives. For example, if I build a 40,000 square foot house because I want to impress my neighbor, then that is always going to be sinful, if only because its never going to work anyway. Most of us are too wrapped up in ourselves to care too much about what others have. On the other hand, if we ask ourselves how can we can best do the will of God before we spend, then it may well be that we buy something fancy, not because of our sinful desires, but because that is the best use of our limited time, talent and treasure. On the other hand, we might just as well find that we need fewer of the goodies that we used to think of as necessities.

Which is exactly why we can’t put any “numbers” or hard rules on things.

peace
James

 

[Cristian_B]

And what (or who) did God, through Jesus, tell us TO Love, and how are we to Love?

Peace
James

We must love everyone so far as giving our lives to them. Is this a satisfactory answer?

 

[JRKH]

We must love everyone so far as giving our lives to them. Is this a satisfactory answer?

Thank you.
Yes it is satisfactory.
Though I was thinking of the more direct biblical answer.
**Mt 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 **"The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
(bolding and underline mine)
Now if we truly do Love our neighbor as ourselves, we need to place ourselves in our neighbors position. If you were standing before a “better off” neighbor asking for help are you hoping your neighbor refuses you?

Let us look once again at the senerio I placed before you in my post number 50 but lets "rewrite it a bit with the above commandments in mind.
"If Jesus were to lay before you three brochures - on the left a brochure for a Lexus and on the right a brochure for a comparable Chevy that would cost 50/month less along with a brochure from a catholic ministry asking for 40/month from you, which do you think Jesus is hoping you will choose? Do you think He would want you to choose the Lexus in order to “maintain your status”?
Now which should you choose if you love your neighbor as yourself? Do you think that, “yourself”, who is asking for the funds for the catholic ministry is hoping you turn “yourself” down in favor of the more expensive car?

Peace
James

 

[alitaptap]

Now which should you choose if you love your neighbor as yourself? Do you think that, “yourself”, who is asking for the funds for the catholic ministry is hoping you turn “yourself” down in favor of the more expensive car?

Love means giving practical help.

 

[JRKH]

Love means giving practical help.

Agreed.
So in the scenerio, the person can provide “practical help” by buying the less expensive car and donating the difference to the Church ministry. Or the person can buy the more expensive car and not contribute any “practical help” claiming they, “can’t afford it”.

Peace
James

 

[belmontmac]

Good thread, to make matters more complicated, husband and wife have to agree on how much is too much, and how much is not enough.

 

[Think_About_It]

You can be ostentatiously wealthy, relative to other people in the world, just so long as you can justify it a manner similar to the preceding five pages. Don’t worry, God wasn’t talking about you when he said how hard it was to get into heaven as a rich person. And if He was, He certainly couldn’t have been talking all that literally. Verily I say unto you, go blithely about the rest of your days.

 

[nsper7]

You can be ostentatiously wealthy, relative to other people in the world, just so long as you can justify it a manner similar to the preceding five pages. Don’t worry, God wasn’t talking about you when he said how hard it was to get into heaven as a rich person. And if He was, He certainly couldn’t have been talking all that literally. Verily I say unto you, go blithely about the rest of your days.

From the Catholic standpoint, the question must be looked at in terms of sin and esp. mortal sin. At what point does ostentation and wealth become a mortal sin? Of course, you then get into tricky when you talk about say a royal/noble person, the Pope, the President of the US or even certain corporate leaders: a lot of the amenities they enjoy ARE not owned by them (does the President own the White House, the Pope own the Vatican, or even a Board of Directors’ appointed CEO own the company jet and all that?).

It would seem the way to get around the issue would be sign over all the wealth to what a life estate so that, while you enjoy its use, you no longer have control over it. Basically, you could have a palace (owned by said life estate), servants (paid by the life estate) and it is all managed by a third party of which you have no control. You are apportioned certain living expenses (food, travel, entertainment, etc.). Thus, you no longer own any of it, but can enjoy its use.

EDIT: Basically, its the ‘civilian’ way of living like the Pope or the Queen of England: you get to enjoy it, but you don’t own/control it.

EDIT 2: A ‘life estate’ basically means that said property/wealth/etc. is owned and controlled by someone else, but for the remainder of your life, certain provisions have to be made.

 

[Think_About_It]

EDIT 2: A ‘life estate’ basically means that said property/wealth/etc. is owned and controlled by someone else, but for the remainder of your life, certain provisions have to be made.

I get that, but this doesn’t apply as roundly as you might want it to in order to defend luxury. Think about a person who owns 2 cars instead of 1 + public transit. Think of that same person who owns a $300 000 dollar home instead of something half that price (granted it could house all the people that need to live in it). Think about a person who ever buys a new TV. The luxuries you think are so slight in North America (or whatever developed nation) are things that you could sacrifice, and if you did, the benefit for someone else would far outstrip the marginal benefit you get from it. Imagine you walk into target and say “yeah, I need a new TV, nothing too fancy” and they say “sure - you can get this one right here, or you can feed a starving family for a year.” You know what the facts are, but you continue to take your marginal luxury. It’s the biggest lie in the Christian value system.

 

[alitaptap]

Agreed.
So in the scenerio, the person can provide “practical help” by buying the less expensive car and donating the difference to the Church ministry. Or the person can buy the more expensive car and not contribute any “practical help” claiming they, “can’t afford it”.

James,

You’re a husband and a father; I guess there are days when you go home tired from consulting work as Quality Expert. But you see your kids. And even if all you want to do is lie down on the couch, you decide to play with them. You don’t feel like doing it. But you do it anyway. That’s love.

 

[JRKH]

From the Catholic standpoint, the question must be looked at in terms of sin and esp. mortal sin. At what point does ostentation and wealth become a mortal sin? Of course, you then get into tricky when you talk about say a royal/noble person, the Pope, the President of the US or even certain corporate leaders: a lot of the amenities they enjoy ARE not owned by them (does the President own the White House, the Pope own the Vatican, or even a Board of Directors’ appointed CEO own the company jet and all that?).

It would seem the way to get around the issue would be sign over all the wealth to what a life estate so that, while you enjoy its use, you no longer have control over it. Basically, you could have a palace (owned by said life estate), servants (paid by the life estate) and it is all managed by a third party of which you have no control. You are apportioned certain living expenses (food, travel, entertainment, etc.). Thus, you no longer own any of it, but can enjoy its use.

EDIT: Basically, its the ‘civilian’ way of living like the Pope or the Queen of England: you get to enjoy it, but you don’t own/control it.

EDIT 2: A ‘life estate’ basically means that said property/wealth/etc. is owned and controlled by someone else, but for the remainder of your life, certain provisions have to be made.

Such a “dodge” might work with the I.R.S., but not with the G.O.D.

The issue of “wealth” has to do with what is in your heart and not your pocket book.

“Think About It” brings up good points about our purchases and what we, in the US, consider “necesities”.
Televeision is a prime example. We think of TV as a necessity, go out and buy a nice one, and then complain about what’s on the darn thing.
(of course if all you watch is EWTN that’s a different matter)

Now I’m not saying what is or is not a legitiamte purchase in any particular case. Nor do I know what might be “too much” in a particular situation. The subject is way too complicated and each situation is unique. That has never been the point of this thread.

Though I must say I am fairly dissapointed with my fellow Christians in their views. Most seem more than ready and willing to defend having wealth, even a lot of wealth as “not sinful”.

“Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”
How often do we (myself included) fail in this?

"Love your neighbor as yourself’
Would “yourself” wish to be turned down when “yourself” asks you for help?

How many more verses are there in the NT telling us not to desire or hold onto wealth?

Peace
James