How much "power" do Protestant ministers have?

[kalt]

I know that many Protestants don’t like the Catholic Church because they believe the priests have too much power and control over people’s lives.

The truth, I think (correct me if I’m wrong), is that Catholic priests have very little autonomous “power” to do anything. They can’t teach their own personal interpretations of the Bible if that interpretation isn’t condoned by the Vatican. They can’t allow transgressions that the Vatican doesn’t allow.

OTOH, it seems to me (again, correct me if I’m wrong) Protestant ministers are given much more lattitude than Catholic priests.

What would happen if a Protestant minister decided to teach his own interpretaion of certain Bible passages?

What would happen if the minister decided to allow gay people to marry (or not) in his church, contrary to what other ministers in the same denomination were doing?

How closely do Protestant ministers have to follow the rules?

It seems that more than a few Protestant ministers have become famous for doing just that–coming up with a new way of looking at their religion. But then maybe they’ve started their own splinter group when they do that???

How far from the rules does a Protestant minister have to stray to be considered a heretic?

Kalt

 

[O.S.Luke]

I know that many Protestants don’t like the Catholic Church because they believe the priests have too much power and control over people’s lives.

You should amend your statement to “Some Protestants.” Not all Protestants think this way.

OTOH, it seems to me (again, correct me if I’m wrong) Protestant ministers are given much more lattitude than Catholic priests.

Again, you should amend that to “Some Protestants.” I am amenable to church law and my bishop.

What would happen if the minister decided to allow gay people to marry (or not) in his church, contrary to what other ministers in the same denomination were doing?

I could have church charges (canon law) filed against me for violating the Book of Discipline (United Methodist Church law), and be sanctioned, put on leave of absence, face a church trial and/or be stripped of my orders.

 

[kalt]

"Originally Posted by kalt
I know that many Protestants don’t like the Catholic Church because they believe the priests have too much power and control over people’s lives.

You should amend your statement to “Some Protestants.” Not all Protestants think this way."

Wasn’t “many” enough of a qualifier?

Your unwarranted criticism aside, thank you for your response.

Kalt

 

[Tomster]

One of the weaknesses Protestantism today is that so few Protestants know what they believe and why. If this self-criticism from a leading theologian is valid for any aspect of religious faith and worship, it is eminently true of the Christian ministry, whose complications and varieties are confessedly baffling even to scholars, let alone to the rank and file members of denominations. The complexity exists not only between different churches, mutually excluding each other’s ministry, but within the same religious body are positions held by one party which another faction, in equally good standing, repudiates.

Still there are common factors in this medley and a certain constancy of practice which sharply distinguish the Catholic from the Protestant clergy. On them will depend whatever success the current ecumenical movement may achieve; as through them a Catholic can learn how deeply the Reformation severed its followers from Roman unity, and how any hope of reunion is possible only when the problems of a divergent ministry have been solved.

continued

 

[Hisalone]

One of the weaknesses Protestantism today is that so few Protestants know what they believe and why. If this self-criticism from a leading theologian is valid for any aspect of religious faith and worship, it is eminently true of the Christian ministry, whose complications and varieties are confessedly baffling even to scholars, let alone to the rank and file members of denominations. The complexity exists not only between different churches, mutually excluding each other’s ministry, but within the same religious body are positions held by one party which another faction, in equally good standing, repudiates.

Still there are common factors in this medley and a certain constancy of practice which sharply distinguish the Catholic from the Protestant clergy. On them will depend whatever success the current ecumenical movement may achieve; as through them a Catholic can learn how deeply the Reformation severed its followers from Roman unity, and how any hope of reunion is possible only when the problems of a divergent ministry have been solved.

continued

Please
One of the weaknesses of the Catholic Church is that Catholics chose what they will believe and not believe.
Reconciliation will only take place when Catholics stop insisting they were rigth all along and Protestants must repent of their rebellion.

 

[Tomster]

The Protestant concept of ministry cannot be understood without an examination of its origins in the Lutheran denial that the Catholic priesthood was instituted by Christ as a distinct sacrament, empowering those who receive it to offer Mass and forgive sins in the name of God. “If there were no higher consecration than what the pope or bishop can give, there would never be a priest,” according to Luther, who proclaimed the spiritual priesthood of all Christians in virtue of their faith in Christ.

Yet, Luther was shrewd enough to see the necessity for some kind of ministry. His purely invisible Church with a universal priesthood was only a convenience to explain the rejection of Rome. His aversion to authority was limited to the Pope and the hierarchy. Within a few months of his break with the Church, he saw the need for instituting a public ministry of his own and, although often uncertain about its nature, he never once doubted how important it was to the cause of the Reformation. Armed with a number of texts from St. Paul, he fought against the old idea of two classes in the Church, clergy and laity, but at the same time promoted his own division of the spiritual priesthood of the many and the public ministry of the few. The instruments of grace, he held, have the same power and effect, whether administered by common Christians or by ministers in their public office. In a famous passage which summarizes the Protestant idea of the clergy, he said, “we firmly maintain there is no other word of God than the one all Christians are told to preach; there is no other baptism than the one all Christians may confer; there is no other remembrance of the Lord’s Supper than the one any Christian may celebrate; also there is no other sacrifice than the body of every Christian.” Accordingly, every believer has the power to preach, teach and adminster the sacraments, and any limitation of this faculty is contrary to the plain words of Scripture.

continued

 

[ncgolf]

Please
One of the weaknesses of the Catholic Church is that Catholics chose what they will believe and not believe.
Reconciliation will only take place when Catholics stop insisting they were rigth all along and Protestants must repent of their rebellion.

No … the beliefs are the Church are real and written … read the Catechism … now some Catholics either do not agree or do not understand the whys of certain beliefs … I agree then there are “Protesters” within the Catholic Church itself.

You have to be honest with the OP’s question … look at the Prosperity Gospel, Lutherans, Methodists … Evangelicals, Baptists … you must agree there are differences and new theology’s pop up all over.

Look at the issues with the Anglican Church … there are serious doctrinal issues … how can both sides of that issue be right.

 

[Tomster]

Nevertheless, though all Christians have the power, not all should exercise it whenever they please. There must be order and discipline in the church, as much as in other societies. “Though all of us are priests, we should not on that account all preach, or teach or govern. But from the whole congregation some must be selected and chosen to whom this office is to be committed; and whoever holds this office is now, because of it, not a priest (like all the rest), but a servant, or a minister, of all the others. For this office is no more than a public service, which is delegated to one by the whole congregation, though all of them are priests together.” Thus the title of “minister” in the Protestant churches has more than a symbolic meaning; it designates the clergy as delegates of the congregation and nothing more. Any assumption of power or authority beyond this range is, by Reformation standards, a deviation from evangelical theology.

 

[NDfan]

No … the beliefs are the Church are real and written … read the Catechism … now some Catholics either do not agree or do not understand the whys of certain beliefs … I agree then there are “Protesters” within the Catholic Church itself.

You have to be honest with the OP’s question … look at the Prosperity Gospel, Lutherans, Methodists … Evangelicals, Baptists … you must agree there are differences and new theology’s pop up all over.

Look at the issues with the Anglican Church … there are serious doctrinal issues … how can both sides of that issue be right.

So then what doctrinal issues would you say impact a person’s salvation? Is there such a thing as essentials vs. non-essentials?

 

[Tomster]

Please
One of the weaknesses of the Catholic Church is that Catholics chose what they will believe and not believe.
Reconciliation will only take place when Catholics stop insisting they were rigth all along and Protestants must repent of their rebellion.

True reconciliation must take place within Protestantism itself. Although Luther and John Calvin were agreed in denying an ordained priesthood with unique powers to offer Mass and forgive sins, they differed widely in their explantion of the public ministry which they both allowed. Luther thought the ministry was divine only in the general sense that trustees of a church are appointed to carry out the “divine ordinances” of teaching, baptizing, and giving the Lord’s Supper. Calvin made the ministry part of his scheme of predestination. “It is by vocation,” he said, “that ministers are destined for preaching the Gospel and administration of the sacraments.” This divergence has been the seedbed of bitter controversy between the two sides and still divides Protestant theologians who favor one or the other interpretation. The Lutheran concept nutured a crop of “free churches” of the Baptist and Congregational type that wanted no compromise on the priesthood of the laity, and to this day jealously guards the autonomy of each congregation to elect and dipose its ministers who are absolutely responsible to the community which put them into office. Calvin’s notion of a divinely elected clergy, to be merely recognized and approve by the people, has found its way into Lutheran communions and is generally accepted, though modified, by religious bodies that are still concerned about doctrinal and ritual conformity. They feel that unless the laity consider their pastors “chosen of God” and respect them accordingly, the urge to independence will dissolve the churches’ ecclesiastical structure and leave them (as it has) a collection of fellowship societies.

 

[ncgolf]

So then what doctrinal issues would you say impact a person’s salvation? Is there such a thing as essentials vs. non-essentials?

Knowledge of Christ to be sure which leads to understanding of sin, forgiveness, salvation, mercy, justice … on and on … no I never agreed with the essentials vs. non-essentials … I see those as common ground, a beginning.

The OP’s point is well taken … the power of the Pastor’s message seems much more important to Protestants than Catholics. I have a friend who is Baptist and he was on a group that interviewed people for a pastoral job in their church … they wanted to see if they agreed with his approach.

I found that odd somehow … the sheep choose the shepard … apparently there are subtle differences in the sort of Biblical emphasis the Pastor preaches.

 

[ericka1701]

In the PC(USA) (Presbyterian Church (United States of America)) men and women who are called Ministers of the Word and Sacrament are technically known as teaching elders. The members of the Session (anaglous to Parish Counsel in some ways) are called ruling elders, because they are the ones that are chairs of the various comittees that all work together to operate that particular church (such as Christian educatuon and worship, stewardship, property and finance to name a few).

There is a similar length of training required for a Presbyterian minister as there is for a Catholic priest… I think the minimum degree a minister can have is a Masters in Divinity, or 4 years undergrad and 3 years postgrad. There is usually a long (2 years is average) period of discernment (that the term they use) to see if one is called to be a Minister, and at that time, if they choose to go forward, they are usually sponsored by another minister. At the moment of ordination, though not viewed as a sacrament, the person is transformed through the Holy Spirit and is comissioned to preach and perform sacraments. I have had it explained to me that the other ministers who lay hands on the person becoming ordained somehow “pass on” their power. About 5 years ago, I asked where the power itself came from in the first place, and I couldn’t get a clear answer, so I started looking for it myself… Couldn’t find the answer there at all, so I started looking at other denominations, and found all of my questions (asked and unasked) answered with the Catholic Church, so I ended up converting and joined this past year.

I hope no one takes this offensively, but I find it somewhat ironic that, with the Presbyterians I have met, as a whole, they can be so non- or even anti-Catholic, but they have kept more Catholic terminology than I suspect even they would like to admit. I’m not saying this about all Presbyterians as a whole… just an observation on the percentage I do know.

God Bless!
Ericka

 

[survive]

Anyone can declare himself a pastor and start a home Bible study or a youth group e.g. and start teaching anything at all. If a pastor wants to be backed by an existing denomination, council, conference etc. he must apply to them and meet their requirements, accountability, training and ethical as well as teaching requirements, but if he is able to get a student it might easily snowball into a new denomination. That’s one reason some letters after a pastor’s name aren’t enough to prove he is part of a known denomination. It’s important before having dealings with a church to find out its history and how accountable the entire leadership is to someone with an established, respected reputation.

 

[JonNC]

Since Tomster brought up Luther, I thought it might be informative to quote the Lutheran stance on clergy.

Augsburg Confession

Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.

Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.

Apology of the Augsburg Confession

24] The Fourteenth Article, in which we say that in the Church the administration of the Sacraments and Word ought to be allowed no one unless he be rightly called, they receive, but with the proviso that we employ canonical ordination. Concerning this subject we have frequently testified in this assembly that it is our greatest wish to maintain church-polity and the grades in the Church [old church-regulations and the government of bishops], even though they have been made by human authority [provided the bishops allow our doctrine and receive our priests]. For we know that church discipline was instituted by the Fathers, in the manner laid down in the ancient canons, with a good and useful intention. 25] But the bishops either compel our priests to reject and condemn this kind of doctrine which we have confessed, or, by a new and unheard-of cruelty, they put to death the poor innocent men. These causes hinder our priests from acknowledging such bishops. Thus the cruelty of the bishops is the reason why the canonical government, which we greatly desired to maintain, is in some places dissolved. Let them see to it how they will give an account to God for dispersing 26] the Church. In this matter our consciences are not in danger, because since we know that our Confession is true, godly, and catholic, we ought not to approve the cruelty of those who persecute this doctrine. 27] And we know that the Church is among those who teach the Word of God aright, and administer the Sacraments aright, and not with those who not only by their edicts endeavor to efface God’s Word, but also put to death those who teach what is right and true; 28] towards whom, even though they do something contrary to the canons, yet the very canons are milder. Furthermore, we wish here again to testify that we will gladly maintain ecclesiastical and canonical government, provided the bishops only cease to rage against our Churches. This our desire will clear us both before God and among all nations to all posterity from the imputation against us that the authority of the bishops is being undermined, when men read and hear that, although protesting against the unrighteous cruelty of the bishops, we could not obtain justice.

I might add that Lutheran pastors are not autonomous in doctrine, but are required to adhere to scripture and the confessions.

Jon

 

[joshua_b]

Since Tomster brought up Luther, I thought it might be informative to quote the Lutheran stance on clergy.

Augsburg Confession

Apology of the Augsburg Confession

I might add that Lutheran pastors are not autonomous in doctrine, but are required to adhere to scripture and the confessions.

Jon

Doesn’t the expectation of adherence depend on what synod of Lutheranism you are referring to ? (forgive me if my terminology is wrong) Aren’t there traditions of Lutheranism that are more “orthodox” than others?

 

[cathopologist]

Please
One of the weaknesses of the Catholic Church is that Catholics chose what they will believe and not believe.

Have you actually considered studying Catholicism rather than make ignorant remarks? If we chose what to believe in (and what not to), we’d be Protestants today. Can you say, ‘Amen to the Bible’?

 

[JonNC]

Doesn’t the expectation of adherence depend on what synod of Lutheranism you are referring to ? (forgive me if my terminology is wrong) Aren’t there traditions of Lutheranism that are more “orthodox” than others?

Not if they’re following the confessions.

Seriously, it is clear to me, too, that some “Lutherans” are no longer “orthodox” in their teaching on the clergy. Ordaining women, for example, is a divergence from confessional Lutheranism.
Thats said, however, I think all Lutheran synods expect their clergy to adhere to the teachings of the synod in matters of doctrine.

Jon

Jon

 

[Tomster]

Please
One of the weaknesses of the Catholic Church is that Catholics chose what they will believe and not believe.
Reconciliation will only take place when Catholics stop insisting they were rigth all along and Protestants must repent of their rebellion.

www.remnantnewspaper.com/Encyclicals/encyclical_mortalium.htm

 

[Hisalone]

Have you actually considered studying Catholicism rather than make ignorant remarks? If we chose what to believe in (and what not to), we’d be Protestants today. Can you say, ‘Amen to the Bible’?

Are you not familar with the term “cafeteria Catholics”?

 

[Hisalone]

www.remnantnewspaper.com/Encyclicals/encyclical_mortalium.htm

Yes that is my point.