T
Truly_Beloved
Guest
Maybe they just haven’t met you, yet, Hell, and don’t think you’re REAL.Why do people commit this horrible sin? Knowing about HELL and all that?
- Status
J
Jay2
Guest
I wouldn’t suggest “snooping” per-say, but start a journal/log on a notepad (entering info from the previous suggestions). Married or not everyone has a right to privacy under the law.
What you “snoop” may not be admissable in Court, due to the means the information was obtained.
What you “snoop” may not be admissable in Court, due to the means the information was obtained.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Don’t do anything that would wreck the marriage, should it happen to turn out that it’s not already in trouble. Use your common sense for that - you know her best, and how she is most likely to react.
E
Eliza10
Guest
I never snooped. I had a prying relative, and I didn’t want to be like that. I trusted. Trustful is how I wanted to be.
Therefore, when my husband realized he wanted out and wanted to secretly line something else up first, he had plenty of time to email old girlfriends and new aquaintences and look for one that took. Once he had one hooked, he had email, phone calls and then enough liasons to seal the deal. I’d never dream of snooping, and never dream of questioning his stories about his whereabouts. I would never lie. And, basically, I projected my values onto him.
I know the whole story of what happened, not because I snooped, because I* never would have*. I believe it was my guardian angel that led me to check my mail that night. My husband was going to bed, and I saw the blue glow from the other room, unoccupied, and thought I’d check it, quick, since it was on anyway.
But a strange email account was on the screen. I decided to read, because, for the past year my husband had been strange and uncommunicative and unpredictable in a different way than usual. I couldn’t figure out what it was, and for the sake of our marriage, I wanted to get inside his mind, so I could make things better. (His cheating never crossed my mind. I trusted.)
So many emails. I thought he was flirting with someone, and if I read the conversation, I’d understand him. Idealistically, I thought understanding was the key. Enough understanding, and what was broken could be fixed.
Instead I was profoundly shocked to find out all of the above. Also that the woman, a wife and mother, had already been exposed when her worrried husband snooped her emails. I learned my husband dispised me for being fooled, even though he prided himself in being a master manipulator, and it was his whole aim to fool me. I learned he was planning to declare me crazy so he could take our child away from me, to live with her, in another state. And he had retained a lawyer to this end. And he was getting his case lined up. And someday soon, somebody was going to walk up to my door and serve me papers.
That was how I was going to hear about our divorce, after nearly twenty years of tyring to keep him happy, and not mad. And we had a young child now.
Someone suggested that he subconsiously wanted to be found out, that’s why he left the computer on. But the man has no working conscience. [Later I learned about Narcissim and then the shocking behavior, the complete absence of empathy, as well as the previous many years of confusions made perfect sense.] No, it wasn’t my husband’s will that made me find it, it was God’s, and my Guardian Angel was helping me, and I had just enough time to do a couple of things to save myself, including a get a good lawyer.
Still, I did no more snooping. Force of habit. But, without ever looking, I soon stumbled upon hotel receipts, pictures, and notes. Just in the nick of time. Thank you, Guardian Angel. My lawyer said these were good to have.
[An aside: The shock of those emails made me suddenly develop a very focused and intense phobia. I was terrifed of a stranger pulling up to my house, coming to the door, and serving me those papers. Fear of this was causing me much distracting anxiety at a time when I had so many shocking and demanding things to take care of. So, I went to a short, simple 30 minute E.F.T. session (Emotional Freedom Technique) and it wiped out the fear. A month later, a big Cadillac slunk up our long driveway, and I knew what it was. The strange man asked my name and handed me the papers while he peered at me with intensive intrusiveness - he wanted to see my reaction. But I was as cool as a cucumber. I thanked him. That E.F.T. really works. I stumbled upon it at the right time, and went to the practioner I heard about, but you can actually learn it yourself online. God provided!]
So thats my experience and background, and here’s my advice:
Being idealistic by not being not snoopy while the other is not living idealistically is not so wise. Do what feels wise. If you suspect, then snoop. Snoop just enough to find out what you need. If you are wrong, breathe a sigh of relief and say nothing. You will have learned something about yourself - that you misread signs, and you can go to counseling to improve things. If you and your wife have both invested in good rapport with each other, you can confess to her at a good time. If one or both of you has avoided rapport, then that can’t happen, and something else is wrong that needs fixing.
Bottom line is, if she is having an affair, force the truth out. Covering for her, by not being “too nosy”, is just providing her more occasion for sin.
Therefore, when my husband realized he wanted out and wanted to secretly line something else up first, he had plenty of time to email old girlfriends and new aquaintences and look for one that took. Once he had one hooked, he had email, phone calls and then enough liasons to seal the deal. I’d never dream of snooping, and never dream of questioning his stories about his whereabouts. I would never lie. And, basically, I projected my values onto him.
I know the whole story of what happened, not because I snooped, because I* never would have*. I believe it was my guardian angel that led me to check my mail that night. My husband was going to bed, and I saw the blue glow from the other room, unoccupied, and thought I’d check it, quick, since it was on anyway.
But a strange email account was on the screen. I decided to read, because, for the past year my husband had been strange and uncommunicative and unpredictable in a different way than usual. I couldn’t figure out what it was, and for the sake of our marriage, I wanted to get inside his mind, so I could make things better. (His cheating never crossed my mind. I trusted.)
So many emails. I thought he was flirting with someone, and if I read the conversation, I’d understand him. Idealistically, I thought understanding was the key. Enough understanding, and what was broken could be fixed.
Instead I was profoundly shocked to find out all of the above. Also that the woman, a wife and mother, had already been exposed when her worrried husband snooped her emails. I learned my husband dispised me for being fooled, even though he prided himself in being a master manipulator, and it was his whole aim to fool me. I learned he was planning to declare me crazy so he could take our child away from me, to live with her, in another state. And he had retained a lawyer to this end. And he was getting his case lined up. And someday soon, somebody was going to walk up to my door and serve me papers.
That was how I was going to hear about our divorce, after nearly twenty years of tyring to keep him happy, and not mad. And we had a young child now.
Someone suggested that he subconsiously wanted to be found out, that’s why he left the computer on. But the man has no working conscience. [Later I learned about Narcissim and then the shocking behavior, the complete absence of empathy, as well as the previous many years of confusions made perfect sense.] No, it wasn’t my husband’s will that made me find it, it was God’s, and my Guardian Angel was helping me, and I had just enough time to do a couple of things to save myself, including a get a good lawyer.
Still, I did no more snooping. Force of habit. But, without ever looking, I soon stumbled upon hotel receipts, pictures, and notes. Just in the nick of time. Thank you, Guardian Angel. My lawyer said these were good to have.
[An aside: The shock of those emails made me suddenly develop a very focused and intense phobia. I was terrifed of a stranger pulling up to my house, coming to the door, and serving me those papers. Fear of this was causing me much distracting anxiety at a time when I had so many shocking and demanding things to take care of. So, I went to a short, simple 30 minute E.F.T. session (Emotional Freedom Technique) and it wiped out the fear. A month later, a big Cadillac slunk up our long driveway, and I knew what it was. The strange man asked my name and handed me the papers while he peered at me with intensive intrusiveness - he wanted to see my reaction. But I was as cool as a cucumber. I thanked him. That E.F.T. really works. I stumbled upon it at the right time, and went to the practioner I heard about, but you can actually learn it yourself online. God provided!]
So thats my experience and background, and here’s my advice:
Being idealistic by not being not snoopy while the other is not living idealistically is not so wise. Do what feels wise. If you suspect, then snoop. Snoop just enough to find out what you need. If you are wrong, breathe a sigh of relief and say nothing. You will have learned something about yourself - that you misread signs, and you can go to counseling to improve things. If you and your wife have both invested in good rapport with each other, you can confess to her at a good time. If one or both of you has avoided rapport, then that can’t happen, and something else is wrong that needs fixing.
Bottom line is, if she is having an affair, force the truth out. Covering for her, by not being “too nosy”, is just providing her more occasion for sin.
I
In_Vino_Veritas
Guest
*]sudden interest in appearance
Check *]wear make-up (if they are the all natural type at home)
Check *]losing weight just out of the blue
Check *]buying lots of new clothes
Check *]Sudden interest in “visiting” a friend or family member that they know you can’t call and verify
Check *]Sudden change in habit about going to visit “friends”
Check ]Increased frequency of socializing time.
Check]More than usual working late or getting called into work.
Nope
Well, since the last one didn’t happen I shouldn’t be worried, right? I could add a few more things to the list, but that would probably be a little TMI.
As for the snooping, I did, and verified what I already knew.
I asked her about what was going on, and she denied anything improper. I did not, however, confront her with the smoking gun. I’m still not sure whether I should confront her or not. I have an appointment with my spiritual advisor tomorrow. We’ll see.
D
dulcissima
Guest
I’m sorry for what you are going through, and I hope your spiritual advisor can give you some good advice. I’m praying for you now though…
B
BlestOne
Guest
In Vino Veritas,
I am so sorry for the pain you must be feeling right now!!! I wish my list were wrong, but I have consistently seen it is right. The next thing is to pray about it… before and after you see your spiritual advisor. Don’t make any rash decisions, think things through completely. I will remember you in my prayers dear… you deserve a faithful spouse!!!
I am so sorry for the pain you must be feeling right now!!! I wish my list were wrong, but I have consistently seen it is right. The next thing is to pray about it… before and after you see your spiritual advisor. Don’t make any rash decisions, think things through completely. I will remember you in my prayers dear… you deserve a faithful spouse!!!
E
Eliza10
Guest
Not necessarily. She could also be missing work you don’t know about. Even if you are on the right track, there is the possibility she is “simply” obsessing about someone and is caught up in a fantasy world. And you are reality, so she is shutting you out. Still hard to disentangle from, and requires her willful consent, but better than a consummated affair. But its still adultery, cheating, and a breech of vows.
Trouble with asking her straight out is, if she is cheating, you are alerting her to cover her tracks. It seems wise to not confront her with “smoking gun” but sit back a bit, get calm, seek wisdom and wise counsel. Hold your cards close to the table. Not so wise to be transparent, showing your cards while she hides hers.
My husband’s girlfriend’s husband found out by snooping, and then he did not do anything immediately, but instead waited to calm down, think clearly, understand the situation, and see how, when she lied. This waiting didn’t go on too terribly long, because he did confront and make a valiant effort to win her back. And she was nearly convinced, except she shared his emails with my husband, and my husbands stepped up his effort to salvage what he had invested so heavily in the past year or more, with heavy doses of romantic manipulation (this was all recorded for posterity in the emails I discovered. I saw then that he didn’t truly love her. He wanted to have her. She was part of his plan now. But thats not love. Because Love would have said, “I’ll step back while you decide what is right for you,” when she wavered and felt confused and overwhelmed about returning to her husband. This helped me see what kind of a man he was. I think my Gruadian Angel wanted me to see. Because I always idealized him, and was willing to obtusely ignore the facts. Actually, he idealized himself, and I believed him.
Well, that’s more of my story. I am sorry yours is unfolding now.
God is close to those whose hearts are breaking.
Thats the best plan!
Our Lady cradled me through my whole ordeal. It still hurt, but the pain was never enough to tip me over the edge or make me not function. Every night I would go for a walk, and pray Pieta prayers (carried my little book with a tiny with a clip-on book lite – I had a good place to walk), the Rosary, and the Divine Mercy Chaplet. In my stunnted state, I didn’t always pray well. Most of the time I didn’t. But I prayed, in my “Just as I am” state, and I recieved such comfort, and assurance of heavenly presence and helps.
Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof.
http://www.italianvisits.com/people/michelangelo/images/michelangelo-pieta.jpg
L
Liberanosamalo
Guest
Eliza, was I married to your ex’s twin? I was also served papers out of the blue, TWICE! One time the woman laughed at me. I thought it was papers from school where my daughter was supposed to be attending soon. She asked if I was ___ ___. I said yes. She said “These are for you.” And she drove off laughing. She had probably been reading all the details of my marriage in the papers before she handed them ( his lies.)
And ex also wanted to have me declared unfit and take the kids. So he used hidden tape recorders to tape me when I didn’t know it. Then he would do outrageous things like spit in my face to get me to say things that would be caught on tape (in front of the kids.) (You can’t hear the spit, but you could hear me respond!) He was trying to build a case that I was unstable. (He didn’t win that case.)
The second time he served me papers was days after Christmas. The constable came knocking on the door. He hid in the back room and told the kids he wasn’t divorcing me.
I say this because if someone is involved elsewhere, being clueless is no virtue. They could be setting you up for a real fall. I had the whole thing going on… new clothes, new cologne, new hairdo, woman calling the house, secretiveness, leaving to make phone calls elsewhere, claiming to work… all of it.
Listen to your gut. And by the way, as to your initial question, is it moral to snoop?
Well, if you suspect infidelity… in this day and age of AIDS and other non-treatable STDs, you have a right to protect your health. Your right to health trumps her right to privacy. You would behave one way in a marriage if you thought you were with a monogamous partner. You would behave totally differently if you thought she was with someone whose sexual history is totally unknown to you.
I say you’re allowed to protect yourself.
And ex also wanted to have me declared unfit and take the kids. So he used hidden tape recorders to tape me when I didn’t know it. Then he would do outrageous things like spit in my face to get me to say things that would be caught on tape (in front of the kids.) (You can’t hear the spit, but you could hear me respond!) He was trying to build a case that I was unstable. (He didn’t win that case.)
The second time he served me papers was days after Christmas. The constable came knocking on the door. He hid in the back room and told the kids he wasn’t divorcing me.
I say this because if someone is involved elsewhere, being clueless is no virtue. They could be setting you up for a real fall. I had the whole thing going on… new clothes, new cologne, new hairdo, woman calling the house, secretiveness, leaving to make phone calls elsewhere, claiming to work… all of it.
Listen to your gut. And by the way, as to your initial question, is it moral to snoop?
Well, if you suspect infidelity… in this day and age of AIDS and other non-treatable STDs, you have a right to protect your health. Your right to health trumps her right to privacy. You would behave one way in a marriage if you thought you were with a monogamous partner. You would behave totally differently if you thought she was with someone whose sexual history is totally unknown to you.
I say you’re allowed to protect yourself.
M
masondoggy
Guest
I agree.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
Hi Vino Veritas;
Are you afraid to confront her, as she might leave? As things might become tense between you both?
C
CCM08
Guest
Honestly, if you’ve got the “smoking gun” why not just come right out with it? If not, I would seriously avoid sleeping with her. You don’t want to end up with any STD’s she may have contracted. When I was playing college hockey I used to get course credit for giving local kids private lessons, and collected extra cash for the program. Well one of the kids I was giving lessons to had a mother that offered to pay for the lessons with a quicky in the back of her van as opposed to cash. I declined and mentioned to her husband who instead she was just joking. Well long story short she was paying for a lot of stuff with quickies in the back of the van and he ended up with herpes that she picked up somewhere.
E
Eliza10
Guest
Twice?
Now the out-of-the-blue makes sense, because when its all about control, and winning, and catching the other off clueless and off-guard gives the “winner” the upper hand.
Finding out that way would have devasted me. I would have said, “What is this?” and that gawking man would have been glad to tell me and would have been awarded a genuine reaction of complete shock. Husband would have felt he had the upper hand when I questioned him in a state of complete shock, depending on him to give me information. I am so glad I did not have to get confused with the stories he would have told me to explain himself, and also was able to experience my shock of the real truth in privacy. It was night, and I called an old friend who’d known us (and commisserated with me) my entire marriage. She gave me good advice when I couldn’t think straight (copy the emails immediately). I know I would have wasted time reading books on how to save your marriage when your husband is cheating on you and suing you for divorce and custody. Husband would have played along to use it for his game of exiting the big winner and me the big loser. God looked out for me!!
And I am so glad that man with the papers got nothing. He wanted intrusive nosey drama, and he got this calm polite unruffled person. I hope he’s never been so bored in his life!
Yes, I believe the man read mine too. No seal on it, and he was full of curiosity. Where do they dig up the people for this job??
Its all about the money. He wanted me to return to work and send him child support, and created a case to call me crazy to do it. The case made no sense, but was packed with many many different lies - stories created from real events, but with twists to make them complete lies. He could churn them out of anything. It was exhausting to read them. And more and more kept coming for a year. My lawyer wanted me to reaspond to all of them, and it takes way longer to explain a lie, what really happened, than it does to make up a story. It was a heavy burden giving all that garbage so much time-consuming and stressful attention, but the stakes were high.
It is so exhausting to be a defendant. It was also my first exposure to the court system. I never really got into court dramas, and now my life was one.
[continued on next post]
…http://www.monasteryicons.com/products/regular/580.jpg
E
Eliza10
Guest
[continued from previous post]
Mine also taped me. I knew it, I sensed it. I sensed my phone calls weren’t private anymore, and in my house (I was home, homeschooling) I felt I was being listened to. I even had hints he knew things he couldn’t know but by tapping. Also, certain revelations came out in my converstaions with the girlfriends’s husband, and then that night I’d feel this dark cloud of hostility directed at me.
So I asked a friend who is technologically saavy to check my house for taps. He spent some time, but didn’t find any. He kindly suggested I may be imagining things. Then that night, I confronted my husband, and he used this man’s almost same words to refute it (I am 100% positve this man did not report to my husband). Plus, he seemed to expect the conversation.
Then, I was single-handedly preparing our house for sale, and the whole house, with much bone-tiring exhausting effort, was looking polished and clean and beautiful. But the realtor told me my husband needed to clean his workshop, which should be a selling feature. I could not get him to do more than a cursory cleanup, but there was so much clutter, and all was piled with years of sawdust, which dimed the charm of the building. Even though I always respected this space, he wasn’t budging, so when he was gone a few days I got in there to make this my big project. Guess what I found? Hanging on a nail was a sawdust covered plastic bag with the packaging and a receipt for tapping equipment!
I never did find the actual equipment, but it sure felt good to know my intuition was working properly! [he had shown a strange lack of curiosity about my reaction to learning of the divorce – thats because he heard it when I spoke to my friends.)
Horrible. Its all crazy-making. I thank God for his protection.
Mine also taped me. I knew it, I sensed it. I sensed my phone calls weren’t private anymore, and in my house (I was home, homeschooling) I felt I was being listened to. I even had hints he knew things he couldn’t know but by tapping. Also, certain revelations came out in my converstaions with the girlfriends’s husband, and then that night I’d feel this dark cloud of hostility directed at me.
So I asked a friend who is technologically saavy to check my house for taps. He spent some time, but didn’t find any. He kindly suggested I may be imagining things. Then that night, I confronted my husband, and he used this man’s almost same words to refute it (I am 100% positve this man did not report to my husband). Plus, he seemed to expect the conversation.
Then, I was single-handedly preparing our house for sale, and the whole house, with much bone-tiring exhausting effort, was looking polished and clean and beautiful. But the realtor told me my husband needed to clean his workshop, which should be a selling feature. I could not get him to do more than a cursory cleanup, but there was so much clutter, and all was piled with years of sawdust, which dimed the charm of the building. Even though I always respected this space, he wasn’t budging, so when he was gone a few days I got in there to make this my big project. Guess what I found? Hanging on a nail was a sawdust covered plastic bag with the packaging and a receipt for tapping equipment!
I never did find the actual equipment, but it sure felt good to know my intuition was working properly! [he had shown a strange lack of curiosity about my reaction to learning of the divorce – thats because he heard it when I spoke to my friends.)
C
CCM08
Guest
Divorce is like chess, had a cousin that did family law for about a year. He came out of clinically depressed. I can kind of see how working in a world with two human beings at their worst all the time could do that to you. I remember the first time my mom and dad explained divorce to me. Their first partner in a brokerage split up from his wife. I guess he was a little smarter about it, he found some cards for divorce attornies so while she was shopping for a lawyer he was liqudating all the assets. He ended up signing his share of the brokerage over to my parents and while she had someone out trying to serve him he was down a Stapleton airport. Really bad thing was she agreed to sign over the house to the brokerage when it was first started to help secure financing so she basically came out of it with some clothes and a car, he really can’t come back to the United States. Not a very pretty game indeed.
J
jules11
Guest
I say, do whatever you have to do to uncover the truth. I know, I, like Eliza10 was oblivious to what was really going on in my first marriage and there is nothing to be gained except a spouse that is gloating about getting away with their cheating and they think you are a complete idiot for trusting them… sorry, my experience, not saying it’s yours.
It’s YOUR marriage and you have a right to know. You have a right to the truth. If she isn’t going to tell you the truth, then you have a right to find it out yourself. You cannot work with lies. You never know where you are at and if they think they are clever enough not to get caught, then the lies could go on for years.
You have to protect yourself in this situation. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by staying ignorant.
I would rather know the whole, horrible, painful truth than live with lies and uncertainty and no peace in my life due to not knowing what was going on.
It’s YOUR marriage and you have a right to know. You have a right to the truth. If she isn’t going to tell you the truth, then you have a right to find it out yourself. You cannot work with lies. You never know where you are at and if they think they are clever enough not to get caught, then the lies could go on for years.
You have to protect yourself in this situation. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by staying ignorant.
I would rather know the whole, horrible, painful truth than live with lies and uncertainty and no peace in my life due to not knowing what was going on.
P
Patrickulating
Guest
I am just so drained. I knew what was there; it was just whether I had a right to get the hard evidence. I still don’t know what to do with the information, though.
My spiritual advisor has not called me yet; I’m sure we’ll talk tonight.
My spiritual advisor has not called me yet; I’m sure we’ll talk tonight.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
Hi Patrick…are you the OP?
I
In_Vino_Veritas
Guest
I am just drained completely. I don’t know what to do with the information. I don’t want to divorce. I don’t know whether I can ever trust her enough to rebuild.
And my spiritual advisor is leading some stupid retreat today, so we still haven’t talked yet. i’m sure we will tonight. (Childish phraseology added for my amusement. I don’t think the retreat is stupid, and he’s a good preacher type.)
And my spiritual advisor is leading some stupid retreat today, so we still haven’t talked yet. i’m sure we will tonight. (Childish phraseology added for my amusement. I don’t think the retreat is stupid, and he’s a good preacher type.)
D
dulcissima
Guest
I can tell you that divorce is harder than you can ever imagine, especially if you have kids. If there is any possible hope that you have that your marriage could survive this, I’d really pursue that.
I guess some things to think about are how long has this been going on and is this the only time? Is there something lacking in your marriage that would have left it vulnerable to adultery, and if so is there anything that can be done to correct that deficit?
You might also try praying the rosary right now, while you are waiting for the chance to talk to your spiritual advisor. I know when I was in that state of trying to understand what action I needed to take in my marriage, I found praying the sorrowful mysteries strangely comforting. I hope that you can find some type of comfort in prayer.
I guess some things to think about are how long has this been going on and is this the only time? Is there something lacking in your marriage that would have left it vulnerable to adultery, and if so is there anything that can be done to correct that deficit?
You might also try praying the rosary right now, while you are waiting for the chance to talk to your spiritual advisor. I know when I was in that state of trying to understand what action I needed to take in my marriage, I found praying the sorrowful mysteries strangely comforting. I hope that you can find some type of comfort in prayer.
- Status