How much wine must be used at Mass?

[dochawk]

Actually, that’s not true. Google “wine yeast alcohol tolerance”.

I hav e more than a passing familiarity with this.

In fact, more than most of those who edit such pages . . .

It actually matters for fermentations I have actually done . . .

And I also, on fairly regular basis, have discussions to those with a commercial interest in this . . .

One priest replied to him, “yes, you’re right! We can reserve the hosts, but we can’t do so with the Precious Blood –

as and (whatever it was called in the mid 80s), we had a Mas sat which plenty of the blood was left after Mass, and we dutifully confused it. Later (t was a Sunday night liturgy) when my friends arrived to pick me up for whatever were uptown that night, one actually stepped back, asking what I had been drinking (we used the Jesuit desert wines, before they sold he winery)

hawk

 

[babochka]

dochawk:

Wine yeast conks out at about 12%; naturally fermented line doesn’t go higher than that. 18% only happens when you fortify

Actually, that’s not true. Google “wine yeast alcohol tolerance”. Some strains are able to tolerate 18%. (And, if you try really hard, you can get there by careful attention to your must – at least, that’s what they do in high-gravity mead recipes. YMMV with grapes, though…)

@adgloriam, can you weigh in as the resident wine expert?

 

[adgloriam]

conks out

I don’t know what “conks out” means.

Simple explanation: the yeast is nowhere limited to 12% since I’ve fermented over 13.5% without adding extra yeast. Formerly folks didn’t “add yeast” that’s something modern - however, rest assured, even then there was plenty of wine going over 13.5%. (Plenty of folks don’t add extra yeast, it’s considered to take away “nuance”.)

Then we can factor in that a wine might not ferment completely, thus leaving behind some residual non-fermented sugar. The entire process is carefully controlled, nowadays.

If I told you I held records of grapes nearing 17% that were nowhere near being raisins over 25 years ago, you might not believe me. But it’s true. And no, it were not “modern varieties”. Yes, I do own uncommonly good lands and my ancestors had gone to France and knew what state-of-the-art was. It’s obvious, with that kind of “raw material” (grapes) you have to add water - and even the water comes from the best spring.

As a final note, I leave that part of the process to the wine master: my dad.

 

[Gorgias]

I hav e more than a passing familiarity with this.

As do I. 12-13% is normal, but “wine yeast conks out at about 12%” just ain’t true.

as and (whatever it was called in the mid 80s), we had a Mas sat which plenty of the blood was left after Mass, and we dutifully confused it.

Consumed it, one hopes.

And yes, that’s the point: you don’t want to end up with a situation in which the priest / deacon / EMHC(s) are standing at the altar or credence table, slugging down lots of Precious Blood as remains in the chalices. Not only because it will get you drunk, but because it just looks / feels / seems irreverent.

 

[Michael_Anthony]

The practice at the Passover Seder was that they shared 4 cups (presumably they each would have taken a sip of each) but at the Last Supper, it is poignantly noted that after the third cup (we know this because St. Paul says “our Blessing cup is a communion” while discussing the Eucharist, and the Blessing cup was the name of the 3rd) they departed to the garden (for more info read Dr. Hahn’s The Fourth Cup, or listen to one of his talks of the same title), I don’t know if they had any cups that they simply drank (as you or I might drink something during dinner to keep our mouths moist) so it seems that at most they likely would have each had 1-2 cups not 5+.

 

[adgloriam]

As do I. 12-13% is normal, but “wine yeast conks out at about 12%” just ain’t true.

Well, I’m a big fan of @dochawk so I’ll try to do the 12% some justice - it is true in a way. @babochka the thing is when the sugar content start going over those values the risk increases that you get an incomplete fermentation or worst, that the fermentation simply stops mid-way into the process. (You can imagine the panic realizing 5000 liters suddenly stopped and you’re risking a complete loss.)

But there’s no set rule (there’s significant variance in biochemical processes, it’s not an exact science) it can work out beautifully or you can find yourself amidst an emergency the fermentation having stopped. When things don’t go right, you have to intervene, you have to act.

Then it’s time to take chemical analyses, evaluate the state of affairs, call an oenologist and get a little biochemical extras to kick-start the fermentation to get the process back on tracks.

(Like I said, that’s the part when I take over the other 98% of the work and leave those critical decisions to my father.)

 

[babochka]

that the fermentation simply stops mid-way into the process.

That is the “conks out” to which @dochawk was referring.

 

[Gorgias]

Then it’s time to take chemical analyses, evaluate the state of affairs, call an oenologist and get a little biochemical extras to kick-start the fermentation to get the process back on tracks.

Yep. I’ve had stuck fermentations myself, and yep… the panic does set in!

when the sugar content start going over those values the risk increases that you get an incomplete fermentation or worst, that the fermentation simply stops mid-way into the process.

I usually ferment all the way to dry, and then back-sweeten if I feel it’s necessary. But yeah… if you’ve pounded your must with a high OG, and then it just sits there… oh, my!