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inocente
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Hi Don. Possibly, but it’s a fact He didn’t save six million others.
My point (post #2) is that “He’s a loving Father, but it’s up to us to build the kingdom of God”. What you say about shepherds seems to be in agreement, although I’m not sure who these inactive shepherds were.
We should be very careful to think through the moral implications here before making hypothetical suggestions. If victims didn’t obey God it would be the fault of victims that they are victims. For instance, would you want to say that about those caught in the airliners and the towers on 9/11? If victims are not obeying God, where was God’s message to tell them to leave, how was this intervention communicated?
Not blaming God, just observing that He didn’t intervene in six million cases. I’m by no means alone here, these questions about suffering are as old as the hills. If there’s an official Church explanation that resolves these questions once and for all, I’m all ears.
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inocente
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You can’t be saying victims bring it on themselves for not loving enough
. Sorry, didn’t understand.We would still have that freedom in a world where the allies managed to prevent six million from being slaughtered, that would still be a better world.
Thanks for your concern but I don’t have any difficulty here tony
. You asked how often do miracles occur, and I’m saying very, very, very rarely. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
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tonyrey
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Al_Moritz
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Tony, I am afraid you get too hung up on physical miracles and interventions. Don’t forget that the sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross mainly concerns the well-being of our souls and their reconciliation with God. How about miracles of the soul, conversions and transformations? These would still be miracles, no physical laws would be suspended, and Inocente’s, and mine, scenario that physical miracles and interventions rarely occur, a scenario based on cold evidence, would still stand. Perhaps these miracles of the soul were the miracles Jesus mainly had in mind.
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tonyrey
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Al, do you think miracles of the soul are rare? It is arbitrary to restrict miracles to conversions and transformations because the body and soul are inextricably related. St Paul was struck blind, St Peter’s chains were loosened, tongues of fire appeared at Pentecost and different languages were spoken - to mention but a few examples. Jesus promised us that if we have faith we will work miracles in His name. Do you think that was an empty promise? What are the cold facts that there are few miracles?
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razredge
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I always thought the most plausible physical miracle was the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima - what do you make of that Al? Was it just a mass hallucination?
The only reason I doubt Fatima is the somewhat strange messages attributed to the Virgin Mary.
The only reason I doubt Fatima is the somewhat strange messages attributed to the Virgin Mary.
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Windfish
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They happen very, very often, and I think that’s an empirical fact. There have been many hundreds of thousands in the history of the Church, and many are occurring in the modern day.
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tonyrey
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I entirely agree and miracles are not confined to Christianity. God is the Father of all His creatures.
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chosen_people
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In the book of Esther the Jews are in exile in Persia, apparently abandoned by God. Evil forces are planning their destruction and they are seemingly doomed. It is only at the end of the story that we realize that behind a series of what appear to be unrelated events, was the guiding hand of God, who saves the Jews with whom He has made an eternal covenant.
So only in hindsight can we understand how God has brought the Jews from apparent desperation to something greater.
There are three major events in Jewish history.1) The going out of Egypt, receiving the Torah and coming to the promised land;2) the destruction of the second Temple and the diaspora;3) The rebirth of the nation of Israel in her land.
In each case these major events were accompanied by events that seemingly signaled punishment of the Jews. In hindsight we can see that this “punishment” brought about a fundamental and necessary change in the reformation of the Jewish people. Moses spends the last third of his life wandering in the desert, never to enter the promised land. Neither do all the people who left Egypt with him. In forty years all but the youngest have died, replaced by two new generations. However, in those forty years a new Jew has been born, freed of slavery, guided by Torah. God has established the conditions for the Jew to turn from slave to freeman, able to rule himself, to fight and win battles, to withstand paganism.
The diaspora of the Jews is accompanied not only by the destruction of the Temple but by one third of the Jewish people dying in uprisings against Rome. However, from this calamity a new Jew is born. One so committed to his Jewish identity he alone of all the ancient peoples will survive. Judaism will cause the creation of Christianity. The Christians will pass laws virtually excluding the Jews from participating in general society and in essence causing them to live in a form of autonomy. However these anti-Jewish laws will not only insure the survival of the Jewish people and prevent their assimilation but also foster the conditions for the massive intellectual development of Judaism. When the Jews begin to be allowed into general society in the 19th century they will do so from this unique advantage, fully equipped to contribute in all areas of life.
Christian anti-Semitism will lead to the Shoah. Again one third of the Jewish people will die. However, once again events will lead to the recreation of a new Jew. The diaspora Jew will be replaced by one who can understand the essence and need of the Jewish State, the meaning of “never again”. The animosity and terror surrounding the Jewish State will not only not weaken it but cause its unprecedented development.
These interrelationships come up time and again as God guides the Jewish people. The King of France contributes to the American revolution helping the Americans to defeat the British. The extra taxation will lead to the downfall of the King and his eventual replacement by Napoleon. Napoleon will bring about the changes which will lead to the beginning of the allowing of Jews into general society. This will come about in time for the Jews to begin to come to modern Zionism and participation in the events that will lead to their re-independence in their homeland. The first State to recognize Israel will be the United States and the United States will become Israel’s close ally.
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Al_Moritz
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Yes, I agree on the sun miracle at Fatima. I don’t believe that it can be explained by mass hallucination, for the reasons the Wikipedia article cites (while I may not agree with the ‘lack of any known scientific causative factor’ as an argument):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
“De Marchi claims that the prediction of an unspecified “miracle”, the abrupt beginning and end of the alleged miracle of the sun, the varied religious backgrounds of the observers, the sheer numbers of people present, and the lack of any known scientific causative factor make a mass hallucination unlikely.[25] That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometres (11 mi) away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria.[25]”
I like Stanley Jaki’s theory:
“Stanley L. Jaki, a professor of physics at Seton Hall University, New Jersey, Benedictine priest and author of a number of books dealing with the intersection of science and faith, proposed a unique theory about the supposed miracle.[26] Jaki believes that the event was natural and meteorological in nature, but that the fact the event occurred at the exact time predicted was a miracle.[26]”
Of course it was a vision, i.e. the sun didn’t really move. Dawkins doesn’t get that, and his critique of the miracle in The God Delusion is one of the most pathetic passages in an already lousy book.
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razredge
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Yea, I agree for the reasons you’ve pointed out - the fact that a miracle was predicted and then seemed to occur is what makes it stand out compared to other unexpected miracles that come out of nowhere, prophecies after the fact or obvious frauds (like Guadalupe) or are decidedly non-supernatural phenomena (like incorruptability).
But then the problem is - what do you make of Mary’s messages? Which seem to be very much a product of the traditional Catholic culture of the time and generally lack the ‘otherness’ you’d expect from true divine revelation or any truly revelatory truths about God (indeed some of the things said I find quite strange, like apparently being able to change God’s mind by consecrating Russia to her Immaculate Heart etc.)
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