How Often Does This Happen To You?

[Seamus_L]

You meet someone who’s also Catholic, and as soon as you learn that, you ask them what parish they attend, and then they ask you, and you tell them you attend the TLM. Immediately they’re very surprised and say things like “I didn’t know the Latin Mass was still available” ?
It happened to me AGAIN, this weekend when I was talking to a woman who was a friend of some friends of mine. It really amazes me that we still have so many people out there who are unaware that the TLM is available. Maybe we need it on a billboard.

 

[faithfully]

Well, I think it’s not available everywhere you go.

The town I grew up in… Not available.

And the LARGE area that I live in now. Available in 2 places. 1 of which is on a private property that had a church built (not sure how they got this to work out actually), and most wouldn’t even know it’s there…

I’ve yet to go to one… some day!

 

[challam2010]

I know this will not be a popular post – but “facts is facts.”

The reason for the person’s reaction may be that he/she is one of the many, many, many, many, many, many, (majority) of Catholics who either successfully and happily made the transition to the vernacular Mass, grew up with the vernacular or converted after the change was made.

It appears from reading the posts on CAF that hundreds of thousands of American Catholics are clamoring for a return to this tranditional form of Mass – but that just isn’t the case, no matter how much people ON CAF claim it and/or complain about the OF.

You don’t get a clear picture of the “standard American liturgy” from reading this board.

I was blown away when I started reading this attitude on CAF and researched my own (very large and populous) state – the Latin Mass is offered in VERY FEW parishes statewide and there is NO public, active movement toward reverting to this form of worship as the norm.

I recognize that many people on CAF prefer the traditional Mass – but this board does NOT represent the views of the “average Catholic” by any means.

I grew up with the Latin Mass and recognize and revere its more sacred ambience – but there is NO way I would want to return to the days of having to read along in a missal during Mass instead of hearing the overwhelmingly powerful words of the Canon in my own language. I had 16 years of Catholic education and am as familiar with Latin as any lay person – but, along with the majority of American Catholics in 2010, I attend the vernacular Mass with joy. Latin isn’t taught in Catholic school on a routine basis anymore, far fewer children attend Catholic schools – and we’ve been out of the practice of hearing Latin at Mass or other services for over 40 years. Why anyone younger than I would prefer worshiping in an unfamiliar language, isolated from the community around him/her, is just beyond my understanding.

I am not denigrating people who are pro-Latin Mass and who post on CAF – just trying to give the OP a clearer picture in answer to the post.

 

[Seamus_L]

WRONG ! The person I spoke with was interested and was amazed that there’s a TLM offered only 3miles from her. Hard to believe as it seems, not everyone spends time online, and consequently they don’t find out about the availability of the TLM. Nearly everyone who’s been surprised to learn the TLM is available has reacted positively.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

I know this will not be a popular post – but “facts is facts.”

The reason for the person’s reaction may be that he/she is one of the many, many, many, many, many, many, (majority) of Catholics who either successfully and happily made the transition to the vernacular Mass, grew up with the vernacular or converted after the change was made.

It appears from reading the posts on CAF that hundreds of thousands of American Catholics are clamoring for a return to this tranditional form of Mass – but that just isn’t the case, no matter how much people ON CAF claim it and/or complain about the OF.

You don’t get a clear picture of the “standard American liturgy” from reading this board.

I was blown away when I started reading this attitude on CAF and researched my own (very large and populous) state – the Latin Mass is offered in VERY FEW parishes statewide and there is NO public, active movement toward reverting to this form of worship as the norm.

I recognize that many people on CAF prefer the traditional Mass – but this board does NOT represent the views of the “average Catholic” by any means.

I grew up with the Latin Mass and recognize and revere its more sacred ambience – but there is NO way I would want to return to the days of having to read along in a missal during Mass instead of hearing the overwhelmingly powerful words of the Canon in my own language. I had 16 years of Catholic education and am as familiar with Latin as any lay person – but, along with the majority of American Catholics in 2010, I attend the vernacular Mass with joy. Latin isn’t taught in Catholic school on a routine basis anymore, far fewer children attend Catholic schools – and we’ve been out of the practice of hearing Latin at Mass or other services for over 40 years. Why anyone younger than I would prefer worshiping in an unfamiliar language, isolated from the community around him/her, is just beyond my understanding.

I am not denigrating people who are pro-Latin Mass and who post on CAF – just trying to give the OP a clearer picture in answer to the post.

Beautifully stated and I concur completely. Now prepare yourself for the fallout!

 

[ProVobis]

I had 16 years of Catholic education and am as familiar with Latin as any lay person

Then you should have recognized the gross mistranslations into the English.

… many, many, many, many, many, many, (majority) of Catholics who either successfully and happily made the transition to the vernacular Mass…

And many more left the Church or stopped going to Church altogether. Perhaps that little bit of mystery which they loved disappeared?

Why anyone younger than I would prefer worshiping in an unfamiliar language, isolated from the community around him/her, is just beyond my understanding.

So you’re questioning the wisdom of the last two Popes, not to mention Veterum Sapientia, Vatican II, and Canon 249, in trying to reinstate the Latin in Catholic worship?

And speaking of isolationism, isn’t that exactly what the vernacular did in splitting English-speaking Catholics from Spanish-speaking or Polish-speaking ones? I can see how happy things are when they set up Spanish Masses at the expense of the English Masses.

 

[Pregustator]

Challam2010:

Although I tend to prefer the smells and bells of “high” liturgy and find the “standard American liturgy” mostly distasteful (not in its text but in its typical presentation), I, too, have no desire to turn the clocks back to 1950. Let the reform be reformed, I say, so that there can be that happy middle ground between the banality of today’s typical liturgical style and the rigidity of the pre-Vatican II liturgy.

Let’s face it: an inaudible 15 minute Low Mass from 1955 is no more edifying than a sappy 45 minute modern Mass with guitars (like the one on Grand Island).

I think you’re right to challenge Catholics who assert that the Catholic world is clamouring for a return to the pre-Vatican II liturgy to produce the numbers. Where are these vast throngs of Catholics clamouring for that? Not at Latin Mass venues, that’s for sure. In my diocese there are two “EF” Masses offered at two different parishes and the pews are anything but packed. I have experienced this poor attendance in other places, as well.

I do want more solemnity and reverence in the liturgy than we tend to be exposed to today. But returning to the pre-Vatican II Mass is not, I think, the answer. As I’ve said, the Tridentine Mass wasn’t always celebrated with dignity and solemnity, either.

Although the numbers may not be as huge as they are fabled to be, I do think it is a sad state of affairs, nonetheless, that there are as many Catholics as there are who have to turn to special Mass venues to attend either the Extraordinary Form or the Anglican Use Mass or what have you, in order to avoid being offended by the typical celebration of the “standard” Mass. I’m getting to that point, myself, to be honest; I find myself sighing and rolling my eyes during the “standard” Mass ever more frequently.

And so it’s good that I know I have other options, that I know that there are a few places to escape to if I’m willing to drive a bit further or what have you. But I shouldn’t have to. None of us should have to. The “standard” Mass should be celebrated in such a way that it doesn’t annoy or offend people. Better still, it might even aspire to edify us.

 

[Pregustator]

So you’re questioning the wisdom of the last two Popes in trying to reinstate the Latin in Catholic worship?

The Pope is not an oracle and one is free to question his wisdom (guarding all due respect); that was cheap. What of the wisdom of the Popes who permitted Latin to be replaced by the vernacular, incidentally? As it is, I know nothing of an effort on the part of John Paul II to bring an end to the use of the vernacular, neither of His current Holiness.

That having been said, I think that there ought to be a greater sprinkling of Latin in the Roman Rite than we are currently exposed to. The occasional “Agnus Dei” or “Sanctus” is all we ever seem to get.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I was formed a Catholic and served as an altar boy in the 1940s-1950s, left the Church out of stupidity and returned late in the 1980s. It took me nearly 10 years to actually come back because I couldn’t believe the circus Mass had become in the 1970s! Granted things have settled down a bit lately and the new revision should bring even more stability but there are still far too many progressive priests and parishes out there. The TLM to which I recently returned having found a TLM parish reasonably nearby, is far more solemn in my personal opinion. Personal opinion means there is no room for argument about it.

This morning for example we celebrated the feast of St. Michael the Archangel with a Missa Cantata, absolutely beautiful and reverent to hear the Mass in Gregorian Chant; how about those who attended an OF Mass today, anything similar?

 

[archangel04]

You meet someone who’s also Catholic, and as soon as you learn that, you ask them what parish they attend, and then they ask you, and you tell them you attend the TLM. Immediately they’re very surprised and say things like “I didn’t know the Latin Mass was still available” ?

                          It happened to me AGAIN, this weekend when I was talking to a woman who was a friend of some friends of mine. It really amazes me that we still have so many people out there who are unaware that the TLM is available. Maybe we need it on a billboard.

A lot of people don’t even know it exist! A lot of really young people like teens don’t know about it, and when they hear that Christ instituted the mass at the last super they figure what we celebrate today (the OF) if how we’ve done it for so many centuries.

 

[malphono]

Although the numbers may not be as huge as they are fabled to be, I do think it is a sad state of affairs, nonetheless, that there are as many Catholics as there are who have to turn to special Mass venues to attend either the Extraordinary Form or the Anglican Use Mass or what have you, in order to avoid being offended by the typical celebration of the “standard” Mass. I’m getting to that point, myself, to be honest; I find myself sighing and rolling my eyes during the “standard” Mass ever more frequently.

And so it’s good that I kbnow I have other options, that I know that there are a few places to escape to if I’m willing to drive a bit further or what have you. But I shouldn’t have to. None of us should have to.

Good points. The thing is, of course, that if the “standard Mass” were replaced by the OF in its “reform of the reform” mode, (even if it be something less than the true “reform of the reform”), the arguments would still continue unabated. Perhaps they would even be worse. Those who oppose the EF will also oppose the “reform of the reform” OF, and generally for similar reasons.

The “standard” Mass should be celebrated in such a way that it doesn’t annoy or offend people.

Yes, but then it would not please those who are wedded to the “standard” and will never give it up. They actually like the blandness which, I suppose, is something rather typically American.

It reminds me of food: meatloaf and mash, which are just about as bland things get get, are often considered to be “comfort food” in this country, but how popular is garlic soup? Yes, Americans tend to experiment with various ethnic foods, but in the end the things that become popular here are inevitably those that are bland and/or absurdly sweet. The spicier and/or more complex (or more tart) the flavor, the less chance that it will be embraced by the masses. Hence we have the mild and innocuous (and unauthentic) pseudo-Mexican stuff that has become common. And the equally tasteless and unauthentic (albeit even saltier and even more ubiquitous) Chinese take-out. And then there are the fast-food chains. The list can go on and on, but I think the point is made.

I see the same pattern in post-conciliar liturgical tastes. The more “vertical” and/or solemn and/or sacrificial, e.g, it is, the less it will be embraced by the masses. The question is why? It seems to me that lack of catechesis and understanding is one big factor, but that problem is going to take a long time and/or a lot of effort to correct.

 

[Melchior_1]

A lot of people don’t even know it exist! A lot of really young people like teens don’t know about it, and when they hear that Christ instituted the mass at the last super they figure what we celebrate today (the OF) if how we’ve done it for so many centuries.

The Mass Christ instituted at the Last Supper wasn’t what we call the EF either though.

 

[archangel04]

The Mass Christ instituted at the Last Supper wasn’t what we call the EF either though.

I know that, I am only stating how important it is to teach history of our Church. One thing I dislike are historians who censor or distort history. I know Christ didn’t have 6 candles on an altar and sang Gregorian as He consecrated the bread and wine

 

[Pregustator]

It reminds me of food: meatloaf and mash, which are just about as bland things get get, are often considered to be “comfort food” in this country, but how popular is garlic soup? Yes, Americans tend to experiment with various ethnic foods, but in the end the things that become popular here are inevitably those that are bland and/or absurdly sweet. The spicier and/or more complex (or more tart) the flavor, the less chance that it will be embraced by the masses. Hence we have the mild and innocuous (and unauthentic) pseudo-Mexican stuff that has become common. And the equally tasteless and unauthentic (albeit even saltier and even more ubiquitous) Chinese take-out. And then there are the fast-food chains. The list can go on and on, but I think the point is made.

The point is very well made; I’ve used the food analogy myself in the past, comparing the Anglican Use liturgy to a wedge of brie vs. the “standard” Mass’s slice of American cheese.

I think the Catholics who are implacably dedicated to the dull liturgical style usually seen at celebrations of the “standard” Mass are as few as those who insist upon a return to the Tridentine Mass. I think the average Catholic in the pew would not object to a more sublime and solemn presentation of Sunday Mass. The problem is with the clergy, I think, more so than the people. Mass is more or less solemn or reverent depending upon the celebrant, rather than the parish.

 

[archangel04]

The point is very well made; I’ve used the food analogy myself in the past, comparing the Anglican Use liturgy to a wedge of brie vs. the “standard” Mass’s slice of American cheese.

I think the Catholics who are implacably dedicated to the dull liturgical style usually seen at celebrations of the “standard” Mass are as few as those who insist upon a return to the Tridentine Mass. I think the average Catholic in the pew would not object to a more sublime and solemn presentation of Sunday Mass. The problem is with the clergy, I think, more so than the people. Mass is more or less solemn or reverent depending upon the celebrant, rather than the parish.

Agreed, I’ve talked to couple of priest on “suggestions” for the OF, and they don’t like it one bit when someone brings them up. Maybe it’s their pride? Maybe they just don’t want to change the way they have been doing it almost all their priesthood? But I always wonder how come they embrace or allor other practices that can fall into liturgical abuse?

 

[malphono]

I think the Catholics who are implacably dedicated to the dull liturgical style usually seen at celebrations of the “standard” Mass are as few as those who insist upon a return to the Tridentine Mass. I think the average Catholic in the pew would not object to a more sublime and solemn presentation of Sunday Mass.

Considering that many of the “average persons in the pew” are there because of the “obligation” more than out of desire, that could well be true. They (and yes, they probably are the majority) will accept what they are taught, and may actually come to like it. Unless it becomes “too spicy” they won’t object. The problem comes in with those who are present precisely because they like the blandness. (Back to the meatloaf and mash.)

The problem is with the clergy, I think, more so than the people. Mass is more or less solemn or reverent depending upon the celebrant, rather than the parish.

Yes. Big time. And that’s a much harder nut to crack. The bulk of clergy seem to consider anything that is even remotely similar to the EF in aura as something to be avoided like the plague. There are, thankfully, some who do embrace the idea. But those are generally the same ones who offer the EF and/or promote the “reform of the reform” of the OF.

 

[HCC]

I know this will not be a popular post – but “facts is facts.” “Facts,” as you see them.

The reason for the person’s reaction may be that he/she is one of the many, many, many, many, many, many, (majority) of Catholics who either successfully and happily made the transition to the vernacular Mass, grew up with the vernacular or converted after the change was made. "Really? 3 years ago this was a major newstory covered repeatedly by every major news source and medium from the AP, NY Times, CNN, Fox News, all local papers and news broadcasts. I work in NYC with lots of Chassidic and Orthodox Jews who don’t even read the NY Times nor own a TV and they discussed it for weeks. It seems almost impossible to not know about the Motu Proprio on some level.

It appears from reading the posts on CAF that hundreds of thousands of American Catholics are clamoring for a return to this tranditional form of Mass – but that just isn’t the case, no matter how much people ON CAF claim it and/or complain about the OF. Ok, I’ll agree with you there. Many of my better educated-in-their-faith friends who care about the Church prefer the OF Mass. I don’t understand it and they don’t understand my preference for the EF and that’s fine. However, I do think, most Catholics deep down are longing for something more and no that isn’t necessarily the EF Mass, though the influence of the EF Mass is having a wonderful impact in many different areas of the Church and I believe will become more normative going forward.

You don’t get a clear picture of the “standard American liturgy” from reading this board. You get a clear picture of the state of things within specific groups in the Church through this forum. The things said here are the same things devout and traditional Catholics say in the 4 major diocese I have lived in here in the US. That it represents progressive and divisive views found in the Church? Not really, but those are not really standard views. The standard view, from what I have seen over the last 20 years has been, “why do you care about this stuff?” That is the average American Catholic view, my friend and if you don’t believe me-start paying attention.

I was blown away when I started reading this attitude on CAF Why? Obviously you don’t seem to hear or care about the concerns of your fellow Catholics who have needs different than your own. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here trying to hurt the feeling of those who feel differently with your nasty tone.

and researched my own (very large and populous) state – the Latin Mass is offered in VERY FEW parishes statewide and there is NO public, active movement toward reverting to this form of worship as the norm. I am 35. I have been attending TLM since I was 16. No I wasn’t a dork, well maybe a liturgy geek, but not a social dork and I took this upon myself, with no support from family or friends and LOTS of hostility. I have watched the Latin Mass listings since 1991 climb, I have watched the creation of many new orders and organizations all surrounding TLM. It is so interesting how the traditional orders are at maximum capacity, where they are turning young people away for lack of space, while the progressive and “normative” orders are withering and drying up, begging for vocations, willing to take just about anybody–and I do mean anybody. It is a movement that has and continues to grow quietly.

I recognize that many people on CAF prefer the traditional Mass – but this board does NOT represent the views of the “average Catholic” by any means. NO and thank God for that! The state of “the average Catholic” is a very sad state indeed.

I grew up with the Latin Mass and recognize and revere its more sacred ambience – but there is NO way I would want to return to the days of having to read along in a missal during Mass instead of hearing the overwhelmingly powerful words of the Canon in my own language. Sounds like you weren’t very well catechized in participation in the liturgy, which is symptomatic of most silent generation/boomers. That is the fault of the Church, I’m afraid and not yours. I’m sorry you had bad experiences.

I had 16 years of Catholic education and am as familiar with Latin as any lay person – Great. Come over and we’ll geek-out on reciting the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar together."

but, along with the majority of American Catholics in 2010, I attend the vernacular Mass with joy. The majority attend it with joy? You said it yourself, most don’t know they have options or those options are very limited to them. When I look around at an average OF Mass, I don’t see a whole lot of “joy” I see a lot of apathy, boredom, “let’s get through this, put a big check next to Sunday Mass box and be done with it.”

 

[HCC]

Latin isn’t taught in Catholic school Which ones? I can list plenty that do. Maybe not in your area. And if the Greeks can have Greek school and the Jews Hebrew school, why can’t Catholics teach their people Latin and Liturgy? Why does the Church pander to the LCD?

on a routine basis anymore, far fewer children attend Catholic schools – and we’ve been out of the practice of hearing Latin at Mass or other services for over 40 years. No time like the present to learn and look how many are doing it. I attend TLM daily here in NYC. We have a different priest everyday say Mass and I marvel at how young so many of them are–all diocesean.

Why anyone younger than I would prefer worshiping in an unfamiliar language, isolated from the community around him/her, is just beyond my understanding. Let’s go to Starbucks, I’ll buy you coffee and we can talk. It is a long crazy, beautiful story of faith, beauty and tradition. Then we’ll swing by Holy Inncoents Church here in NYC, in the heart of the Fashion District and you’ll be on the floor when you see it is mostly 20s-early 40-s, all different ethnicities and backgrounds. It’s wonderful. Get off your boomer high horse and recognize many of us find your generation’s take on things banal and flat thank you very much!

I am not denigrating people who are pro-Latin Mass Oh yes you are…

and who post on CAF – just trying to give the OP a clearer picture in answer to the post.

Let’s be thankful we have a pope who understands we are part of a universal church, with many different kinds of people and needs and that he realizes how important it is to make room for everyone. You like your OF Mass? Good! So, enjoy it! Maybe put your little ax down that you like to grind so much.

 

[Seamus_L]

This thread is not about the reasons why people prefer mass in the vernacular. I wanted to know if others were having similar experiences with people who were unaware that the TLM is available.

 

[ProVobis]

What of the wisdom of the Popes who permitted Latin to be replaced by the vernacular, incidentally?

There does seem to be that contradiction between Popes, I must admit, so we can forever argue the wisdom behind their positions. Pope John XXIII effectively banned vernacular. But currently the Pope is holding steadfast with Latin texts as the basis for the Mass, though it can be said in the translations which the Vatican approves. I can’t see them abandoning that position soon for pastoral reasons.