How Often Does This Happen To You?

[roadsend]

This thread is not about the reasons why people prefer mass in the vernacular. I wanted to know if others were having similar experiences with people who were unaware that the TLM is available.

Short answer - yes.

It amazes me that there are so many Catholics out there who think that Latin is still “outlawed” or at least “frowned upon”.
However in most of the Northwest (U.S.); Latin Masses are not realistically available to Catholics, whose spiritual needs are not being met by the banal, illicit, Protestantized liturgy so commonly offered.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Short answer - yes.

It amazes me that there are so many Catholics out there who think that Latin is still “outlawed” or at least “frowned upon”.
However in most of the Northwest (U.S.); Latin Masses are not realistically available to Catholics, whose spiritual needs are not being met by the banal, illicit, Protestantized liturgy so commonly offered.

While Latin Masses not being readily available in the Northwest…yes that’s true. But not all Catholics are not having their spiritual needs met. Nor do all of us have banal, illicit, Protestantized liturgy. It seems from your other posts that you are definetly angry and have an axe to grind. Not all of us in the Northwest are that way though.

I have never thought that Latin was “outlawed” or “frowned upon”. I just prefer the NO…simple as that. For those that prefer the TLM…good from them…simple as that.

 

[challam2010]

To HCC…

Well, I guess you told me, didn’t you. This type of interchange is SO typical of this particular Forum. The fact is, we see things differently on many levels. I’m not going to convince you of anything and neither are you going to change my mind, but you did draw some incorrect conclusions from my post.

Contrary to your assumption, I was very well catechized – if you count my 16 years of Catholic education including the years I spent in college as a postulant and novice in a traditional order of nuns. I did not have a “bad experience” during my years of attending the Latin Mass – on the contrary, and as I said in my post, I love the reverence and sanctity of the Mass of that era… but FOR ME the vernacular is, overall, more satisfying in that I hear the Canon and participate fully in English, which is my first language. I also hear the community I’m worshiping with in English (and without the need for a missal or the need to translate anything in my brain). I certainly respect those who prefer that kind of sacred worship, although I don’t understand the nostalgia for Latin as the language of liturgy.

You apparently are on the East Coast – I live on the West Coast, and I suspect that our orientation toward the OF may stem, in part, from that distinction.

My former diocese was extremely fortunate to have an open-minded and open-hearted Bishop and a cadre of young, intelligent, well-educated priests during the time of the changes stemming from Vat II. Our congregations were educated in the differences in theological emphasis derived from the Council documents, in the reasons behind the liturgical changes, and those wonderful priests were (and apparently unusually) skilled liturgists. Except for a few masses celebrated by older, cranky and tired priests, I haven’t personally experienced any OF mass that I would consider bland or boring, as some posts on this thread have described, nor have I seen any of the liturgical abuses so bemoaned here.

From many of the posts I’ve read about Midwest and Eastern Catholics, I don’t think the above was the case. It sounds like changes were just dumped on you without explanation, that your priests were either not enthusiastic and/or reluctant to make the changes – which resulted in a lot of dissatisfaction with the “new” mass. That wasn’t my experience at all.

As a music leader in the 70’s and 80’s, I did run across the anti-Kumbaya crowd, which I totally understood at the time – and still today I loathe the level of amateur volunteer musicianship which is too prevalent in parishes too poor to pay for trained musicians. I agree that this can detract from the solmnity of the OF mass – but it has nothing to do with the liturgy of the Word or Eucharist which constitute the mass itself. I’m all for the best music possible, whether it be contemporary or traditional, Latin, English, Spanish or Tagolog.

My post was in response to the OP who had an interaction with a person who was surprised by the availability of the TLM. I’m saying that the reason for the apparent surprise is that there isn’t a huge grass roots movement to restore Latin, that the interest on CAF is not representative of the majority of American Catholics but IS representative of the conservative community who participates on CAF.

I spent a month in France last spring on a do-it-yourself pilgrimate to the Gothic churches and Cathedrals there and, based in Paris, I attended many liturgies at Notre Dame de Paris. Every mass was the OF mass but wtih very traditional and exquisite music (there is a famous music school based at Notre Dame) and each mass and other service were every bit as reverant as the traditional Latin services. Some of the music was in Latin but ALL of the services were prayed in French – obviously, the vernacular of the country.

Reverance and sanctity don’t depend on the utilization of Latin – and the masses I attend regularly in my present diocese are, as I said, joyful, with 99.9% participation of the congregation, and attended by very involved, truly Christian Catholics who are active in parish activities. In this particular (very large) diocese, there is only one Latin mass offered biweekly and no clamor to expand that offering.

I’m nearly twice your age and I’m saying, without exaggeration, that until I joined this forum I did NOT know that such a conservative community existed or that there was such vocal distaste for the OF mass. It certainly does not represent any diocese I’ve lived in nor visited on this side of the MIssissippi.

This is only an explanation of my first post and your incorrect assumptions and conclusions about it. I have no intention of further engaging yet another infamous “Latin Mass war” that always, always is enacted so uncharitably and mean-spiritedly.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

FOR ME the vernacular is, overall, more satisfying in that I hear the Canon and participate fully in English, which is my first language. I also hear the community I’m worshiping with in English (and without the need for a missal or the need to translate anything in my brain). I certainly respect those who prefer that kind of sacred worship, although I don’t understand the nostalgia for Latin as the language of liturgy.

You apparently are on the East Coast – I live on the West Coast, and I suspect that our orientation toward the OF may stem, in part, from that distinction.

Except for a few masses celebrated by older, cranky and tired priests, I haven’t personally experienced any OF mass that I would consider bland or boring, as some posts on this thread have described, nor have I seen any of the liturgical abuses so bemoaned here.

Reverance and sanctity don’t depend on the utilization of Latin – and the masses I attend regularly in my present diocese are, as I said, joyful, with 99.9% participation of the congregation, and attended by very involved, truly Christian Catholics who are active in parish activities. In this particular (very large) diocese, there is only one Latin mass offered biweekly and no clamor to expand that offering.

I’m nearly twice your age and I’m saying, without exaggeration, that until I joined this forum I did NOT know that such a conservative community existed or that there was such vocal distaste for the OF mass. It certainly does not represent any diocese I’ve lived in nor visited on this side of the MIssissippi.

Well said! Me too!

 

[ProVobis]

I have never thought that Latin was “outlawed” or “frowned upon”. I just prefer the NO…simple as that. For those that prefer the TLM…good from them…simple as that.

It’s not fair to compare the TLM to a generic Mass. Better be specific in your preferences or the Spanish NO or the Polish OF may be all that we have.

 

[dconklin]

This thread is not about the reasons why people prefer mass in the vernacular. I wanted to know if others were having similar experiences with people who were unaware that the TLM is available.

Here in the Greater Charlotte, NC area there is only one parish that offers/advertises the TLM. I would love to go and take some of our youth, but I work at another parish and my Sunday’s are otherwise occupied.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Short answer - yes.

It amazes me that there are so many Catholics out there who think that Latin is still “outlawed” or at least “frowned upon”.
However in most of the Northwest (U.S.); Latin Masses are not realistically available to Catholics, whose spiritual needs are not being met by the banal, illicit, Protestantized liturgy so commonly offered.

It’s hard not to comment on the TLM/OF difference, there is too much passion involved! I was until very recently one of those who was sort of aware the TLM was still available but couldn’t find one, one of the Church’s best kept secrets in some parts of the country. Now that I’ve found a TLM parish I’ve abandoned the OF unless I’m away from home and have no choice and having no choice really irritates me by the way.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It’s not fair to compare the TLM to a generic Mass. Better be specific in your preferences or the Spanish NO or the Polish OF may be all that we have.

Why not…they are both valid Masses…

In my part of the country we don’t have a Polish OF…so I don’t think I have to worrry about that

 

[ProVobis]

but there is NO way I would want to return to the days of having to read along in a missal during Mass

Interesting but I see more reading their missals during the OF than the EF. Maybe they can’t understand the speakers who speak in their own vernaculars. Don’t laugh, I’m one of those who have trouble following homophones and proper names and heavy accents. I need a missal to follow the Mass, either form.

 

[HCC]

Dear challam2010,

Please take the time to browse through this blog: newliturgicalmovement.org/ It is intelligent and informative and will give you some perspective on what young people are finding in the traditional liturgy and the impact the renaissance of TLM is having on many areas of the Church. It has no ax, no nasty tone, it is just enjoyable. Have a looksie.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Interesting but I see more reading their missals during the OF than the EF. Maybe they can’t understand the speakers who speak in their own vernaculars. Don’t laugh, I’m one of those who have trouble following homophones and proper names and heavy accents. I need a missal to follow the Mass, either form.

I rarely see personal missals at any OF Mass, our local Catholic Store doesn’t even stock many due to poor sales; I do see some following the hymns in the hymnals.

 

[roadsend]

I rarely see personal missals at any OF Mass, our local Catholic Store doesn’t even stock many due to poor sales; I do see some following the hymns in the hymnals.

Perhaps the poster is referring to the Missalettes bought from the music publishers usually given out at many parishes.

 

[ProVobis]

I rarely see personal missals at any OF Mass, our local Catholic Store doesn’t even stock many due to poor sales; I do see some following the hymns in the hymnals.

I rarely see the handmissals either. I was referring to those missalettes actually. I haven’t seen them in any Catholic Stores although I’m sure they buy them in heavy bulks. Most of those have the hymnal as part of the missalette.

Perhaps the poster is referring to the Missalettes bought from the music publishers usually given out at many parishes.

Yes.

And I see a lot either using them or are looking for them in the pews.

So I guess I’m not the only way who has trouble understanding the spoken vernacular in the liturgy.

 

[roadsend]

…
And I see a lot either using them or are looking for them in the pews.

So I guess I’m not the only one who has trouble understanding the spoken vernacular in the liturgy.

You are definitely not the Lone Ranger.
Lots of us use the missalettes, especially for the readings.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

You are definitely not the Lone Ranger.
Lots of us use the missalettes, especially for the readings.

I have to be fair; at the EF Mass I see more personal missals but there are many using the “Red” Mass pamphlets usually available in the Narthex. These contain the common Mass parts but lack the readings. The problem with that is that during weekday Mass the proper Mass parts, especially the Epistle and Gospel, are read in Latin only, on Sunday they are read in Latin and the vernacular. I need my missal with its translation to fully understand the lessons.

 

[roadsend]

I have to be fair; at the EF Mass I see more personal missals but there are many using the “Red” Mass pamphlets usually available in the Narthex. These contain the common Mass parts but lack the readings. The problem with that is that during weekday Mass the proper Mass parts, especially the Epistle and Gospel, are read in Latin only, on Sunday they are read in Latin and the vernacular. I need my missal with its translation to fully understand the lessons.

Sorry if my post was misleading.
I use the missalette to follow the readings at my home parish OF Mass.
I also turn off my hearing aides and use my 1962 Daily Missal as a prayerbook when the “music ministers” are singing their non-Catholic music.
When I am fortunate enough to travel and attend a EF Mass, I use my 1962 Daily Missal to follow those parts of the Mass that I have not memorized.
It is not always easy to find an EF Mass when traveling since so many Catholics are unaware that it still exists, even if one is in the area.

 

[ProVobis]

I have to be fair; at the EF Mass I see more personal missals but there are many using the “Red” Mass pamphlets usually available in the Narthex. These contain the common Mass parts but lack the readings. The problem with that is that during weekday Mass the proper Mass parts, especially the Epistle and Gospel, are read in Latin only, on Sunday they are read in Latin and the vernacular. I need my missal with its translation to fully understand the lessons.

I agree with you about those Red (or Tan for the Latin-Spanish) missalettes. There are somewhat misleading as their readings are from one Sunday alone. The EF novice might have a tough time trying to connect those readings with the Mass. It’s more advisable to familiarize yourself with your own handmissal and use it the way it suits you best. Those ribbons are very useful too.

My point though was that in both the EF and OF the missals or missaletes can serve an important role in the ability to fully absorb the word of God. One shouldn’t just simply say “Blah, I hate having to look at those old missals” to try to prove the superiority of one rite.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I agree with you about those Red (or Tan for the Latin-Spanish) missalettes. There are somewhat misleading as their readings are from one Sunday alone. The EF novice might have a tough time trying to connect those readings with the Mass. It’s more advisable to familiarize yourself with your own handmissal and use it the way it suits you best. Those ribbons are very useful too.

My point though was that in both the EF and OF the missals or missaletes can serve an important role in the ability to fully absorb the word of God. One shouldn’t just simply say “Blah, I hate having to look at those old missals” to try to prove the superiority of one rite.

I suppose they can. I don’t follow along in the missals at the OF. Why? Because I am more of a visual learner…but then I can get distracted that way and not really listen. So I listen with full attention to stay on track. I get a lot more that way because I already read the readings at home so I get it 2 ways.

 

[archangel04]

While Latin Masses not being readily available in the Northwest…yes that’s true. But not all Catholics are not having their spiritual needs met. Nor do all of us have banal, illicit, Protestantized liturgy. It seems from your other posts that you are definetly angry and have an axe to grind. Not all of us in the Northwest are that way though.

I have never thought that Latin was “outlawed” or “frowned upon”. I just prefer the NO…simple as that. For those that prefer the TLM…good from them…simple as that.

Actually it’s not that simple, because although most who prefer the OF can have their spiritual needs fuffilled at the nearest Catholic Church, those who preffer the EF isn’t always the case. Many times, including myself, we are looked down upon by our own parish priest and parishoners just for mentioning anything to have to do with Latin. So I am sorry, but it’s not as simple as that as you put it.

 

[PAboy57]

You meet someone who’s also Catholic, and as soon as you learn that, you ask them what parish they attend, and then they ask you, and you tell them you attend the TLM. Immediately they’re very surprised and say things like “I didn’t know the Latin Mass was still available” ?

                          It happened to me AGAIN, this weekend when I was talking to a woman who was a friend of some friends of mine. It really amazes me that we still have so many people out there who are unaware that the TLM is available. Maybe we need it on a billboard.

unfortunately it doesn’t happen here as we only have 1 church in the whole diocese that says 1 Latin Mass. we are about to change bishops in the near future and maybe that will change also.