How often does your parish celebrate Vespers?

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The problem as I see it Seamus is this…The bishops (especially the Ruthenians) see themselves as second class catholics, and continually ape the Latins in order to prove how catholic they are. So for the most part the Latinizations are brought in by our own bishops, but they are Latinizations just the same. :mad: This goes for the new Ruthenian Divine Liturgy as well.
Seamus, I don’t know Ciero, so I cannot say what motivates him or what class of Catholic he imagines himself to be. But it is easy to find comments like this on the internet from malcontents who love to do armchair psychoanalysis of bishops. In such commentary there is supreme confidence about having the right answer, but little sense of sharing and balancing and understanding the needs of good people who are see things differently.

Now, when you ask about “our problem” , I wonder what you are talking about. If you are talking about Saturday evening liturgies, I would ask: what is the problem? My dad spent some years slowly dying from a disabling disease. He had severe trouble rising, and could never make it to a morning Sunday liturgy. But he ad a fervent desire to be at our services and to receive communion. Whatever thoughts I had about the need for ritual purity were transformed by this experience. I might even consider husking corn on the Sabbath.

Should a vigil liturgy replace vespers? No, of course not, it would be awful to drive out vespers. A number of parishes serve Great Vespers on Saturday evening, then later serve the Divine Liturgy. Why wasn’t this done in the two parishes that Ciero writes about? There was probably much, much more to the story than Ciero lets on.
 
Sounds good to me Dvdjs. I wish we could all go back to having Sunday as truly the Lord’s Day, but as things currently stand, that’s not about to happen.
Vespers AND Divine Liturgy, what a concept ? Who could be against it ? One could even make an argument that it fit's that definition some Easterners are so fond of "Ekonomia".
 
So, it would appear your problem is not with any particular Roman Catholics, but rather the decisions of your own Byzantine bishop.
I do not think many of our current bishops where in place when these latinizations were put into practice.

It is hard to change the practice of a parish as it is what they know and you must be pastoral in the removal and replacement of our traditions, you can not do it like pulling off a band-aid (really quick like) without hurting some of the members of the parish, after all, this is all they know.

Some of the bishops are a bit more proactive in this matter than others but I do not fault them for the current pace of progress. The fault, if we can call it that, lays years and years and years ago when the latinizations were introduced (there are more latinizations than just Saturday Evening Liturgies). This all had its start in before 1920 with Fr Toth and Archbishop Ireland (a Latin Bishop who attempted to expel all Eastern Catholic clergy from the US),

So while today some may be upset over the pace of some of our bishops, it does have its roots from us copying the Latins to be “more” Catholic and there was involvement of Latin Bishops in this.

Its not an easy thing.
 
… what do you mean 3 strikes and you’re out canon?

I always put the words “sunday obligation” in quotations to indicate the fact that it is not a belief of the Eastern Churches. It is up to the individual to fulfill an obligation that they feel themselves to participate in offering their praise to the Lord. If a Christian feels like they are being obligated or forced to go every Sunday (or week), then the faith of that person is out of fear of committing a sin, not out of love or personal desire to worship the Lord. Personally, I think this belief of “sunday obligation” is one of the many reasons for the existence of lapsed catholics.
From the fourth century, the church, including the east, has had canons that call for deposing clergy and excommunicating clerics and laymen who fail to attend the Liturgy for three Sundays during three consecutive weeks.
 
I do not think many of our current bishops where in place when these latinizations were put into practice.

It is hard to change the practice of a parish as it is what they know and you must be pastoral in the removal and replacement of our traditions, you can not do it like pulling off a band-aid (really quick like) without hurting some of the members of the parish, after all, this is all they know.

Some of the bishops are a bit more proactive in this matter than others but I do not fault them for the current pace of progress. The fault, if we can call it that, lays years and years and years ago when the latinizations were introduced (there are more latinizations than just Saturday Evening Liturgies). This all had its start in before 1920 with Fr Toth and Archbishop Ireland (a Latin Bishop who attempted to expel all Eastern Catholic clergy from the US),

So while today some may be upset over the pace of some of our bishops, it does have its roots from us copying the Latins to be “more” Catholic and there was involvement of Latin Bishops in this.

Its not an easy thing.
No it is not as easy thing, unfortunately. One of the biggest problems the Eastern Catholic churches face is that MOST of our bishops have a Latin mindset.

The new Ruthenian Divine Liturgy with its multiple abbreviations, the fact that the services are not encouraged to be celebrated, the dumbing down of our fasting traditions all come from the minimalistic way of seeing things prevalent in the West.

I dont know if this comes from the fact that the bishops were educated in Latin seminaries or in Eastern seminaries that were heavily Latinized or the fact that they are just trying to be “more” catholic. 🤷
 
i don’t think my church does them they may though I don’t see them done at my college church but it may be done at my home parish.

I know its done daily at the local seminary i’ve been to it very amazing Monks and vespers are so cool
 
I am sorry but I just do not buy this as a excuse to continue a latinization. What did people do before such a latinization [Saturday evening Divine Liturgy] entered our Churches?
What did the Latins do before this abuse entered into the life of the Latin church?
These are great questions, because answers to them have the potential to be very illuminating. First, both comments, if I understand them correctly, contain a sense that, if a practice was not needed years ago, then there is no justification for it now. While this idea is essential to an antiquarian’s perspective, and can often color the perspectives of traditionalists; it is not, IMO, a correct one. Chesterton says this:
… the only real reason for being a progressive is that things naturally tend to grow worse. The corruption in things is not only the best argument for being progressive; it is also the only argument against being conservative. The conservative theory would really be quite sweeping and unanswerable if it were not for this one fact. But all conservatism is based upon the idea that if you leave things alone you leave them as they are. But you do not. If you leave a thing alone, you leave it to a torrent of change. If you leave a white post alone it will soon be a black post. If you particularly want it to be white you must be always painting it again; that is, you must be always having a revolution Briefly, if you want the old white post you must have a new white post.
So, for a (tangential) example, if you want to continue to celebrate Pascha on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox, then you must adjust the calendar to correctly mark the time of the vernal equinox; just marking it as Mar 21 Julian, does not conserve the practice of Nicea, it corrupts it.

Another true and even more curious example: during the planning of the Big Dig in Boston, many people expressed the opinion that, since we didn’t need this highway in colonial Boston, why do we need it now?

So, I think it is worthwhile to consider some of the changes that have occurred in the past fifty years that have an impact on whether or not the idea of Saturday vigil liturgies - east or west - has some merit: increased obligation to work on Sunday; increased travel time to church; increased life expectancy accompanied by an increase in time bed-ridden with infirmities; elimination of Sunday evening/night services. I don’t think it takes much thought to realize how these changes in our lives might limit the possibility of attending Sunday morning services. Now I will agree that it would be great if we all were healthy, were immune from work obligations, and lived near to our parishes. But not every one has the luxury of securing all of these desirable situations.

Indeed even fifty years ago not all of these were possible; Latin churches in my (mill) town had masses Sunday night at 5PM and 7PM. At least the vigil mass is on the correct liturgical day.

The question that the church faces is how to act as a good shepherd to the flock that is living today - not thirty or fifty or one hundred or more years ago. A flock that can control its moral responses to the corruption that has been mainstreamed into our society, but is not completely in control of all aspects of their life - where and when they work, or their health. With a little more charity for those who are faced with the problem of how to be a good shepherd in these times, it would be possible to understand that the impetus for much of the change that we have seen is actually the impetus to conserve our Christian heritage against a torrent of change.

I think that they work with their flock in mind - what else, really - and that are doing a admirable job in a though situation. II might not agree with everything that they do, but driving is always much easier in the back seat. And I think that pointing to “Latin mindsets” just misses the mark, in a myriad of ways.
 
These are great questions, because answers to them have the potential to be very illuminating. First, both comments, if I understand them correctly, contain a sense that, if a practice was not needed years ago, then there is no justification for it now. While this idea is essential to an antiquarian’s perspective, and can often color the perspectives of traditionalists; it is not, IMO, a correct one.
Thank you for this. My reason for asking those questions was to get at this point you made. After a response to the questions from Seamus I was going to ask further if anything that he considers “new” is modern and should be out. Is nothing of development after what ever arbitrary time period that he deems acceptable?

My question to many of those arguments is tell me at what date the Church was perfect and then we will revert everything back to then and that will be it.
 
Our parish doesn’t have Vespers or Matins. We have attendance issues as it is with the Divine Liturgy. I pray God blesses us all with new parishioners.
 
Thank you for this. My reason for asking those questions was to get at this point you made. After a response to the questions from Seamus I was going to ask further if anything that he considers “new” is modern and should be out. Is nothing of development after what ever arbitrary time period that he deems acceptable?

My question to many of those arguments is tell me at what date the Church was perfect and then we will revert everything back to then and that will be it.
The church has never had a golden age or a time when it was perfect. But to change things that are rightfully part of our tradition just because the Latins are doing it is unacceptable. Like I stated earlier in this thread, parishes that tend to be traditional and actually pray the traditional services of the church suffer when the powers that be insist on changing things because usually that means dumbing things down.
 
The church has never had a golden age or a time when it was perfect. But to change things that are rightfully part of our tradition just because the Latins are doing it is unacceptable.
That is certainly true. But your suggestion that things that are rightfully part of our tradition have been changed just because the Latins are doing it has not been given any foundation. Just saying it doesn’t make it true. I dispute claim; I don’t think that it even makes sense.
Like I stated earlier in this thread, parishes that tend to be traditional and actually pray the traditional services of the church suffer when the powers that be insist on changing things …
Many parishes have gone through these changes and are doing well. St JC, a BCC parish in Seattle seems to be doing very well with an extensive schedule of services including daily matins, a filial outreach, and two parishioners in the seminary. Why did some parishes do well while others, in your account, suffered? Are there more issues involved in the parishes that you mentioned?
 
That is certainly true. But your suggestion that things that are rightfully part of our tradition have been changed just because the Latins are doing it has not been given any foundation. Just saying it doesn’t make it true. I dispute claim; I don’t think that it even makes sense.

Many parishes have gone through these changes and are doing well. St JC, a BCC parish in Seattle seems to be doing very well with an extensive schedule of services including daily matins, a filial outreach, and two parishioners in the seminary. Why did some parishes do well while others, in your account, suffered? Are there more issues involved in the parishes that you mentioned?
When Bishop William (Skurla) was still in Phoenix he was asked why it was prefeable to have a Saturday evening Liturgy vs serving Vespers. His response was the Romans have a Saturday evening Mass, if we dont offer one as well our people will go to the Romans. I think that says it all.

As far as St. John Chrysostom in Seattle, it does help to have a priest who will challenge the bishop.
 
When Bishop William (Skurla) was still in Phoenix he was asked why it was prefeable to have a Saturday evening Liturgy vs serving Vespers. His response was the Romans have a Saturday evening Mass, if we dont offer one as well our people will go to the Romans. I think that says it all.
Assuming that this exchange is accurate, and that it is first hand, not some internet legend, I still have to apologize for being dense: what “all” does that say?

Some facts: According to a Deacon in Phoenix, St Stephen’'s does Great Vespers and Vigil Liturgy. St Thomas also does Great Vespers in Gilbert according to the Eparchy’s website. If “vs” is accurate, it is obsolete. Progress is being made.

From St. Stephen’s bulletins in November I see that attendance Sat night is 15-30% of Sat+Sun. I have no idea who attends on Sat or why. Perhaps you have more information. I am sure that Bishop had more. Do you think that he was wrong in his assessment that the people who attend the Sat night liturgy might go another Catholic parish is St. Stephen didn’t serve one? Are you surprised that many BC’s sometimes go to other Catholic Churches? What do you think should be done about that? Do you think that there is something wrong with people wanting - really wanting - to receive communion? Frequency of communion is another thing that has changed over the last century that I should have included in my post above.

Perhaps I missed your point entirely. What is your analysis and your proposal for the folks who go to the vigil liturgy in Phoenix?
As far as St. John Chrysostom in Seattle, it does help to have a priest who will challenge the bishop.
Good priests are always a great help. So is good leadership in the laity.
 
Assuming that this exchange is accurate, and that it is first hand, not some internet legend, I still have to apologize for being dense: what “all” does that say?

Some facts: According to a Deacon in Phoenix, St Stephen’'s does Great Vespers and Vigil Liturgy. St Thomas also does Great Vespers in Gilbert according to the Eparchy’s website. If “vs” is accurate, it is obsolete. Progress is being made.

From St. Stephen’s bulletins in November I see that attendance Sat night is 15-30% of Sat+Sun. I have no idea who attends on Sat or why. Perhaps you have more information. I am sure that Bishop had more. Do you think that he was wrong in his assessment that the people who attend the Sat night liturgy might go another Catholic parish is St. Stephen didn’t serve one? Are you surprised that many BC’s sometimes go to other Catholic Churches? What do you think should be done about that? Do you think that there is something wrong with people wanting - really wanting - to receive communion? Frequency of communion is another thing that has changed over the last century that I should have included in my post above.

Perhaps I missed your point entirely. What is your analysis and your proposal for the folks who go to the vigil liturgy in Phoenix?

Good priests are always a great help. So is good leadership in the laity.
St Stephens in Phoenix does a Vesperal Liturgy. And yes Bsp William felt the people would go to a Latin parish if Vespers was served without the Liturgy. And yes I was there when he said it.

St Thomas in Gilbert does a Vigil Liturgy. They used to serve Great Vespers with attendance about 30 people. These same 30 people would come back for Liturgy on Sunday morning. When Vespers was discontinued attendance fell to about 8. These 8 do not return on Sunday morning.

I just dont get it I guess.

And no I see nothing wrong with frequent communion. But I do have a problem with all our services being dropped so that we can offer more Liturgies just so people can have communion. What ever happened to preparing for communion? Praying the services of Vespers and Mattins has always been part of the Byzantine way of preparing for the Liturgy especially preparing for receiving communion.

I dont really get what your trying to say. Are you advocating that Vespers just be done away with and be replaced with Liturgy?
 
I’m still trying to understand, how having an additional opportunity to receive the Eucharist becomes a Latinization. Vespers shouldn’t be eliminated, but a Saturday DL serves the same purpose for EC’s as it does RC’s. I hope no one’s promoting the idea of receiving the Eucharest less frequently.
 
I’m still trying to understand, how having an additional opportunity to receive the Eucharist becomes a Latinization. Vespers shouldn’t be eliminated, but a Saturday DL serves the same purpose for EC’s as it does RC’s. I hope no one’s promoting the idea of receiving the Eucharest less frequently.
No it doesn’t. It does allow them to receive the Eucharist, but for a Roman Catholic it also allows him to fill the “obligation” while Great Vespers for an Eastern Catholic can do so.
 
OK, but my point is that EC’s have the same desire to receive the Eucharist as RC’s do, and it would appear that the Byzantine bishop recognizes that.
 
Seamus L: “No it doesn’t. It does allow them to receive the Eucharist, but for a Roman Catholic it also allows him to fill the “obligation” while Great Vespers for an Eastern Catholic can do so.”

I’m still trying to understand, how having an additional opportunity to receive the Eucharist becomes a Latinization. Vespers shouldn’t be eliminated, but a Saturday DL serves the same purpose for EC’s as it does RC’s. I hope no one’s promoting the idea of receiving the Eucharest less frequently.
The Sunday obligation is fulfilled for some of the Eastern Catholic Churches through Vespers.

1991 *CCEO *Canon 881 §1-3. “The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises. 2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day. 3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily. …”

It was Sacred Congregation of Rites Eucharisticum Mysterium instruction of May 25, 1967 which stated that in cases of pastoral necessity, Sunday Masses could be celebrated on Saturday evenings. See No. 28:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWEUCH.HTM

So this is also in the CCEO.
 
I’m still trying to understand, how having an additional opportunity to receive the Eucharist becomes a Latinization. Vespers shouldn’t be eliminated, but a Saturday DL serves the same purpose for EC’s as it does RC’s. I hope no one’s promoting the idea of receiving the Eucharest less frequently.
Byzantine Tradition (note capitalization) is “One Divine Liturgy Per Altar Per Liturgical Day”

Roman is different: every priest was, for quite a while (several centuries), required to say a mass himself (Either as priest, deacon or subdeacon) every day, and barred concelebrations other than the pontifical mass; in smaller parishes, this often meant multiple liturgies on one altar. (Larger parishes would have 3-10 altars… or even more.)

Both East and West have an ancient Tradition that the liturgical day begins with Vespers the night before. In the East, a vigil means no liturgy on the day itself, unless the parish has two or more altars. In the West, no such restriction survived, and the priest may even say multiple masses on the same altar.

So the offering of a vigil and a daytime liturgy for the same day on the same altar is a Latinization. It’s one I don’t mind, tho’ I’d MUCH rather see it done as a VDL instead of the Sunday morning DL. (The VDL is not a latinization; it’s an expansion of use from a twice a year special to a more general use. It’s application, however, is a latinization when there is only one altar and a morning DL is offered on the same altar.)
 
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