How Old is Your Church?

[steve_b]

The Anglican, Wesleyan (Methodists) and Episcopal Church would clearly trace their lineage back to Christ. Disagreement with Rome does not nullify the heritage of the tradition, just nullifies the connection with Rome.

This would be a good place to show your proof. … fully documented

 

[ChurchSoldier]

This would be a good place to show your proof. … fully documented

Read post #54. Thanks for looking.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

This would be a good place to show your proof. … fully documented

Why would you say they are not?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Why would you say they are not?

Because Henry VIII started the Church of England and in the resulting unpleasantries, Anglicanism lost its valid orders?

 

[TARRAT]

Let me see if I have it right,as to what the Lutherans are saying.

1. Their very name indicates that they are followers of Luther.
2. Luther added words to the New Testament.
3. Luther subtracted books from the Old Testament.
4. Luther wanted to seperate himself from the evil Catholic Church.
5. He rejected the leadership of the One Church started by Jesus Christ that was pretty much united for 1500 years.
6. There was no Lutheran delegation at any of the Church Councils.

After all of this seperating from the Catholic Church they claim that they are part of the same church they so desperately tried to be seperated from. And that saying so makes it so. This does not seem logical to me. Correct me on any of the above six points if they are wrong.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Because Henry VIII started the Church of England and in the resulting unpleasantries, Anglicanism lost its valid orders?

It has actually been covered in other pages here. Read page 4.

Thanks for asking.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It has actually been covered in other pages here. Read page 4.

Thanks for asking.

Hey, I saw The Tudors so I know the truth, okay?

Ah, but seriously, using the logic that you posted previously, we would have to give EVERY johnny-come-lately denomination that opens up a storefront worship center in an shopping center similar authority. Sadly for them, it just doesn’t work that way.

Yes, Christianity in England is ancient with a long history. Unforfunately, the Anglican Church is a product of the Reformation whose history “only” goes back 500 years or so. Better than most Bible churches, but not what the OP had in mind.

Anglicanism as “Catholicism without the Pope” is a novelty unknown to the Apostles upon whom the Catholic Church based in Rome was built.

 

[pocohombre]

Let me see if I have it right,as to what the Lutherans are saying.

1. Their very name indicates that they are followers of Luther.
2. Luther added words to the New Testament.
3. Luther subtracted books from the Old Testament.
4. Luther wanted to seperate himself from the evil Catholic Church.
5. He rejected the leadership of the One Church started by Jesus Christ that was pretty much united for 1500 years.
6. There was no Lutheran delegation at any of the Church Councils.

After all of this seperating from the Catholic Church they claim that they are part of the same church they so desperately tried to be seperated from. And that saying so makes it so. This does not seem logical to me. Correct me on any of the above six points if they are wrong.

Well,if you are a follower of “Luther”, a Lutheran, can you not be a follower of Christ, anymore than you being a follower of the Blessed Pope are a follower of Christ?.. As far as adding words, I would say not to add an “s”,but we do know of one word added, the infamous"alone". Don’t recall any other added words, and then again, it is a “translation”… Subtracting is not the same as not including. Catholics also “subtracted” some books from the original Septuagint. Jerome preferred not to include them initially but was somewhat pressured to do so. The Jews do not include such books either in their Hebrew bible. But yes, Luther went against a 1000 year old tradition of not including them…For sure Luther was at odds with his current leadership and some of it’s positions. …As far as councils,I guess it is hard to attend councils when the emperor outlaws your faith convictions. I thought any compromise offers were rejected by the pope, hence only a handful of “protestants” were at Trent…fascinating history, sorry I am not up on it much and may easily be corrected.

 

[pocohombre]

Is there a difference between the “church” and the Body of Christ/the Bride biblically speaking (not traditionally) ?

 

[steve_b]

Why would you say they are not?

Let’s say for argument sake, I’m a huge sceptic and need verification for everything. If what you say is true, then you should have an avalanche of information at your fingertips proving it. Afterall, if one says their organization goes back 2000 years to Christ, then if true, documentation of that should not only be a snap but voluminous.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Let’s say for argument sake, I’m a huge sceptic and need verification for everything. If what you say is true, then you should have an avalanche of information at your fingertips proving it. Afterall, if one says their organization goes back 2000 years to Christ, then if true, documentation of that should not only be a snap but voluminous.

Since you asked…(and this has been covered many times here on CAF)
Because of the Papal Bull proclaiming Anglican orders “null and utterly void” (I like most Anglicans do not agree, but that’s what makes some of us Anglican and some Roman ) the Anglican Church confirmed their Succession with several undisputed lines since early last Century. Here is one Bishop I am familiar with, but it is just one example of all virtually all Male Bishops Consecrated in Anglicanism throughout the middle of last century. Bishop Jones is now a Bishop in the Convocation of Anglicans in North America which is part of the Anglican Church of North America.
Old Catholic Line of Succession of Bishop L.S. Derek Jones CANA/ANCA
Old Catholic Succession Antonio Cardinal Barberini
future Roman Catholic Archbishop of Rheims who on the 12th of November 1668 consecrated
Michael Letellier
Roman Catholic Bishop of Mieux who on the 21st of September 1670 consecrated
Jaques Goyon De Matigon
who on the 18th of February 1719 consecrated
Dominicus Marie Varlet
former Roman Catholic Bishop of Babylon who on the 17th of October 1765 consecrated
Petrus Johannes Miandaerts
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 11th of July 1745 consecrated
Johannes Van Stiphout
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 7th of February 1768 consecrated
Gualterus Michael Van Neiuwenhuizen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 21st of June 1778 consecrated
Adrianus Johannes Broekmen
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 5th of July 1797 consecrated
Johannes Jacobus Van Rhijn
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 7th of November 1805 consecrated
Gilbert Vornelius De Jong
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 24th of April 1814 consecrated
Willibord Van Os
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Johannes Bon
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 15th of November 1824 consecrated
Johannes Van Santen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Hermanus Heykamp
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 11th of August 1875 consecrated
Casparus Johannes Rinkel
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 11th of May 1892 consecrated
Gerard Gul
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 28th of April 1908 consecrated
Arnold Harris Mathew
Old Catholic Bishop for Great Britain who on the 28th of October 1914 consecrated
Frederick Samuel Willoughby
Bishop of Saint Panca who on the 13th of February 1916 consecrated
James Ingall Wedgwood
Liberal Catholic Presiding Bishop who on the 15th of September 1919 consecrated
Irving Steiger Cooper
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 13th September 1931 consecrated
Charles H. Hampton
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 22nd of June 1957 consecrated
Herman Adrian Spruit
Archbishop-Patriarch of the Church of Antioch who on the 23rd of April 1989 consecrated
Timothy Michael Barker
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 28th of July 1991 consecrated
Michael Rivers Milner, Jr.
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 26th of February 1995 consecrated
Michael D. Owen
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 3rd of October, 1995, consecrated
Russell T. McClanahan
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 6th of January, 2007, consecrated
Derek LS Jones
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches

As you may be aware, the RCC has confirmed that the Old Catholic lines are valid (though illicit).

Here’s a link to the full line ( 47 pages) which goes through Roman, Orthodox and Anglican Lines.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain . That said, I would expect we would still disagree (as is appropriate due to our affiliation)

I will say if you want the best explanation on Anglican Succession, GKC on the forums is the expert on the topic.

 

[Memaw]

Since you asked…(and this has been covered many times here on CAF)
Because of the Papal Bull proclaiming Anglican orders “null and utterly void” (I like most Anglicans do not agree, but that’s what makes some of us Anglican and some Roman ) the Anglican Church confirmed their Succession with several undisputed lines since early last Century. Here is one Bishop I am familiar with, but it is just one example of all virtually all Male Bishops Consecrated in Anglicanism throughout the middle of last century. Bishop Jones is now a Bishop in the Convocation of Anglicans in North America which is part of the Anglican Church of North America.
Old Catholic Line of Succession of Bishop L.S. Derek Jones CANA/ANCA
Old Catholic Succession Antonio Cardinal Barberini
future Roman Catholic Archbishop of Rheims who on the 12th of November 1668 consecrated
Michael Letellier
Roman Catholic Bishop of Mieux who on the 21st of September 1670 consecrated
Jaques Goyon De Matigon
who on the 18th of February 1719 consecrated
Dominicus Marie Varlet
former Roman Catholic Bishop of Babylon who on the 17th of October 1765 consecrated
Petrus Johannes Miandaerts
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 11th of July 1745 consecrated
Johannes Van Stiphout
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 7th of February 1768 consecrated
Gualterus Michael Van Neiuwenhuizen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 21st of June 1778 consecrated
Adrianus Johannes Broekmen
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 5th of July 1797 consecrated
Johannes Jacobus Van Rhijn
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 7th of November 1805 consecrated
Gilbert Vornelius De Jong
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 24th of April 1814 consecrated
Willibord Van Os
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Johannes Bon
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 15th of November 1824 consecrated
Johannes Van Santen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Hermanus Heykamp
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 11th of August 1875 consecrated
Casparus Johannes Rinkel
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 11th of May 1892 consecrated
Gerard Gul
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 28th of April 1908 consecrated
Arnold Harris Mathew
Old Catholic Bishop for Great Britain who on the 28th of October 1914 consecrated
Frederick Samuel Willoughby
Bishop of Saint Panca who on the 13th of February 1916 consecrated
James Ingall Wedgwood
Liberal Catholic Presiding Bishop who on the 15th of September 1919 consecrated
Irving Steiger Cooper
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 13th September 1931 consecrated
Charles H. Hampton
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 22nd of June 1957 consecrated
Herman Adrian Spruit
Archbishop-Patriarch of the Church of Antioch who on the 23rd of April 1989 consecrated
Timothy Michael Barker
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 28th of July 1991 consecrated
Michael Rivers Milner, Jr.
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 26th of February 1995 consecrated
Michael D. Owen
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 3rd of October, 1995, consecrated
Russell T. McClanahan
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 6th of January, 2007, consecrated
Derek LS Jones
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches

As you may be aware, the RCC has confirmed that the Old Catholic lines are valid (though illicit).

Here’s a link to the full line ( 47 pages) which goes through Roman, Orthodox and Anglican Lines.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain . That said, I would expect we would still disagree (as is appropriate due to our affiliation)

I will say if you want the best explanation on Anglican Succession, GKC on the forums is the expert on the topic.

What would be the good of belonging to a denomination that may (???) have valid orders that are illicit, when one can and should belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that was founded by Jesus Christ himself and HE promised the Holy Spirit would protect that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church from error till the end of time and has for the last 2,000+ years. (and we can prove that) Why remain with one that is already in error. God Bless, Memaw

 

[ChurchSoldier]

What would be the good of belonging to a denomination that may (???) have valid orders that are illicit, when one can and should belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that was founded by Jesus Christ himself and HE promised the Holy Spirit would protect that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church from error till the end of time and has for the last 2,000+ years. (and we can prove that) Why remain with one that is already in error. God Bless, Memaw

You guys are funny. If you read the whole line there are Licit lines from the Orthodox Church as well. The one I like the most is from the Antiochan Church which Peter himself began in 35AD.

Having “licitness” would be important if you are Roman, not so much for an Anglican because we are not under Papal Authority.

Here’s sort of my point Memaw, and I’m glad you chimed back in. This whole thread I hope is an opportunity to learn about another faith and will prompt some to investigate other faiths on their own. Not for edification or conversion, but to understand more than just rote answers that are repeated so often people just continue to claim them without knowing why.

So thanks again for contributing to the thread!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Since you asked…(and this has been covered many times here on CAF)
Because of the Papal Bull proclaiming Anglican orders “null and utterly void” (I like most Anglicans do not agree, but that’s what makes some of us Anglican and some Roman ) the Anglican Church confirmed their Succession with several undisputed lines since early last Century. Here is one Bishop I am familiar with, but it is just one example of all virtually all Male Bishops Consecrated in Anglicanism throughout the middle of last century. Bishop Jones is now a Bishop in the Convocation of Anglicans in North America which is part of the Anglican Church of North America.
Old Catholic Line of Succession of Bishop L.S. Derek Jones CANA/ANCA
Old Catholic Succession Antonio Cardinal Barberini
future Roman Catholic Archbishop of Rheims who on the 12th of November 1668 consecrated
Michael Letellier
Roman Catholic Bishop of Mieux who on the 21st of September 1670 consecrated
Jaques Goyon De Matigon
who on the 18th of February 1719 consecrated
Dominicus Marie Varlet
former Roman Catholic Bishop of Babylon who on the 17th of October 1765 consecrated
Petrus Johannes Miandaerts
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 11th of July 1745 consecrated
Johannes Van Stiphout
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 7th of February 1768 consecrated
Gualterus Michael Van Neiuwenhuizen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 21st of June 1778 consecrated
Adrianus Johannes Broekmen
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 5th of July 1797 consecrated
Johannes Jacobus Van Rhijn
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 7th of November 1805 consecrated
Gilbert Vornelius De Jong
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 24th of April 1814 consecrated
Willibord Van Os
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Johannes Bon
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 15th of November 1824 consecrated
Johannes Van Santen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Hermanus Heykamp
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 11th of August 1875 consecrated
Casparus Johannes Rinkel
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 11th of May 1892 consecrated
Gerard Gul
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 28th of April 1908 consecrated
Arnold Harris Mathew
Old Catholic Bishop for Great Britain who on the 28th of October 1914 consecrated
Frederick Samuel Willoughby
Bishop of Saint Panca who on the 13th of February 1916 consecrated
James Ingall Wedgwood
Liberal Catholic Presiding Bishop who on the 15th of September 1919 consecrated
Irving Steiger Cooper
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 13th September 1931 consecrated
Charles H. Hampton
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 22nd of June 1957 consecrated
Herman Adrian Spruit
Archbishop-Patriarch of the Church of Antioch who on the 23rd of April 1989 consecrated
Timothy Michael Barker
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 28th of July 1991 consecrated
Michael Rivers Milner, Jr.
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 26th of February 1995 consecrated
Michael D. Owen
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 3rd of October, 1995, consecrated
Russell T. McClanahan
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 6th of January, 2007, consecrated
Derek LS Jones
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches

As you may be aware, the RCC has confirmed that the Old Catholic lines are valid (though illicit).

Here’s a link to the full line ( 47 pages) which goes through Roman, Orthodox and Anglican Lines.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain . That said, I would expect we would still disagree (as is appropriate due to our affiliation)

I will say if you want the best explanation on Anglican Succession, GKC on the forums is the expert on the topic.

In light of the information you posted above, has the Vatican recognized Anglican orders as valid?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

What would be the good of belonging to a denomination that may (???) have valid orders that are illicit, **when one can and should belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that was founded by Jesus Christ himself and HE promised the Holy Spirit would protect that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church from error till the end of time and has for the last 2,000+ years. **(and we can prove that) Why remain with one that is already in error. God Bless, Memaw

I guess the second thing I would like to say is I do belong to Christ’s Original Church as expressed through Anglicanism. As pointed out, we trace our roots to Pentecost, Peter, Christ (pick your choice). We have valid Succession and therefore Sacraments (I understand you would not agree, but the the lines and intentions show what they show and for Anglican’s it is authoritative). My guess is, if the Episcopal Church and Church of England did not move away from Biblical Ordination, Rome could have been prompted to investigate and accept them. And I’ve been in the Tradition my whole life and am comfortable with it.

Thanks again for being part of the discussion.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

In light of the information you posted above, has the Vatican recognized Anglican orders as valid?

No they haven’t. My guess is that as the “confirmation of” Succession was being completed in the late 60’s both the ECUSA and CoE were getting ready to walk away from the Biblical model for ordination. Why would Rome have wanted to step into that quagmire?

And that comes down to the concern of Papal Authority. Roman Catholics should be very concerned about it, as an Anglican I have looked at it and been satisfied that the lines we have provide valid Succession and Sacraments.

I will say, the reason I learned about Anglican Succession is I set out to study Catholicism. That study brought me a new respect for the Catholic church and belief system and deepened my Anglican faith learning the rich Tradition and History from which we came. I have a high level of respect for it and some of the most faithful and prayerful Christians I know are RC.

 

[steve_b]

Since you asked…(and this has been covered many times here on CAF)
Because of the Papal Bull proclaiming Anglican orders “null and utterly void” (I like most Anglicans do not agree, but that’s what makes some of us Anglican and some Roman ) the Anglican Church confirmed their Succession with several undisputed lines since early last Century. Here is one Bishop I am familiar with, but it is just one example of all virtually all Male Bishops Consecrated in Anglicanism throughout the middle of last century. Bishop Jones is now a Bishop in the Convocation of Anglicans in North America which is part of the Anglican Church of North America.
Old Catholic Line of Succession of Bishop L.S. Derek Jones CANA/ANCA
Old Catholic Succession Antonio Cardinal Barberini
future Roman Catholic Archbishop of Rheims who on the 12th of November 1668 consecrated
Michael Letellier
Roman Catholic Bishop of Mieux who on the 21st of September 1670 consecrated
Jaques Goyon De Matigon
who on the 18th of February 1719 consecrated
Dominicus Marie Varlet
former Roman Catholic Bishop of Babylon who on the 17th of October 1765 consecrated
Petrus Johannes Miandaerts
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 11th of July 1745 consecrated
Johannes Van Stiphout
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 7th of February 1768 consecrated
Gualterus Michael Van Neiuwenhuizen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 21st of June 1778 consecrated
Adrianus Johannes Broekmen
Old Catholic Bishop of Haaren who on the 5th of July 1797 consecrated
Johannes Jacobus Van Rhijn
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 7th of November 1805 consecrated
Gilbert Vornelius De Jong
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 24th of April 1814 consecrated
Willibord Van Os
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Johannes Bon
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 15th of November 1824 consecrated
Johannes Van Santen
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 17th of July 1854 consecrated
Hermanus Heykamp
Old Catholic Bishop of Deventer who on the 11th of August 1875 consecrated
Casparus Johannes Rinkel
Old Catholic Bishop of Haarlem who on the 11th of May 1892 consecrated
Gerard Gul
Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht who on the 28th of April 1908 consecrated
Arnold Harris Mathew
Old Catholic Bishop for Great Britain who on the 28th of October 1914 consecrated
Frederick Samuel Willoughby
Bishop of Saint Panca who on the 13th of February 1916 consecrated
James Ingall Wedgwood
Liberal Catholic Presiding Bishop who on the 15th of September 1919 consecrated
Irving Steiger Cooper
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 13th September 1931 consecrated
Charles H. Hampton
Liberal Catholic Regionary Bishop for the United States who on the 22nd of June 1957 consecrated
Herman Adrian Spruit
Archbishop-Patriarch of the Church of Antioch who on the 23rd of April 1989 consecrated
Timothy Michael Barker
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 28th of July 1991 consecrated
Michael Rivers Milner, Jr.
Bishop of the International Free Catholic Communion who on the 26th of February 1995 consecrated
Michael D. Owen
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 3rd of October, 1995, consecrated
Russell T. McClanahan
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches who on the 6th of January, 2007, consecrated
Derek LS Jones
Bishop of The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches

As you may be aware, the RCC has confirmed that the Old Catholic lines are valid (though illicit).

Here’s a link to the full line ( 47 pages) which goes through Roman, Orthodox and Anglican Lines.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain . That said, I would expect we would still disagree (as is appropriate due to our affiliation)

I will say if you want the best explanation on Anglican Succession, GKC on the forums is the expert on the topic.

Ah, now I know how you were making your point. :tiphat:

You’re right, we still disagree. No surprise there I’m sure. Between the papal bull papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm and all the illicit ordinations, I’m thinking that does NOT look good. But at the end of the day, I’m not the one you have to convince … right?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Ah, now I know how you were making your point. :tiphat:

You’re right, we still disagree. No surprise there I’m sure. Between the papal bull papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm and all the illicit ordinations, I’m thinking that does NOT look good. But at the end of the day, I’m not the one you have to convince … right?

If these illicit consecrations add up to Apostolic Succession, then I suppose those women who were consecrated by that mystery bishop on the Danube river are truly bishops as well, and we now have women priests and bishops in the Catholic Church!

 

[steve_b]

If these illicit consecrations add up to Apostolic Succession, then I suppose those women who were consecrated by that mystery bishop on the Danube river are truly bishops as well, and we now have women priests and bishops in the Catholic Church!

I like the way Paul said it

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to teach that. And the HS got that teaching from Jesus John 16:12-15

Obviously Jesus is telling us in advance those who dissent from His Church, and use craftyness to deceive the simple minded, it won’t go well for THEM.

 

[JonNC]

=TARRAT;11172439]Let me see if I have it right,as to what the Lutherans are saying

We are saying almost none of this.

1. Their very name indicates that they are followers of Luther.

the name Lutheran, like the name ROMAN Catholic, were at the time of their beginning, a slur against the receiver. Both simply accepted the name, basically in defiance of the accuser. Lutherans follow Christ.

1. Luther added words to the New Testament.

No, he translated, as opposed to transliteration of Greek to German.

1. Luther subtracted books from the Old Testament.

No. Luther’s translation had/has 74 books. In fact, he actually added the Prayer of Manasseh.

1. Luther wanted to seperate himself from the evil Catholic Church.

No. His 95 Theses were actually a debate tool. He was attempting to expose the abuse of indulgences, etc.

1. He rejected the leadership of the One Church started by Jesus Christ that was pretty much united for 1500 years.

No. He rejected what he and others considered the innovations that the Roman see had claimed for itself.

1. There was no Lutheran delegation at any of the Church Councils.

Certainly they were afraid to attend Trent, as their lives were clearly in danger. All other councils, local synods, and the like, took place prior to the Reformation.

After all of this seperating from the Catholic Church they claim that they are part of the same church they so desperately tried to be seperated from. And that saying so makes it so. This does not seem logical to me. Correct me on any of the above six points if they are wrong.

Done.

Jon