How old was Mary when Jesus was born?

[Bruce_Killian]

Yes and no. A descendant of David, yes. Ruling forever, no. The Messiah, the Lord’s anointed, is invariably referred to in the OT as a man, not in any way a divine being. Sometimes, significantly, the word is found in the plural, as in 1 Chron 16:22, where the Lord warns Israel’s enemies to do no harm to “my anointed ones (my Messiahs, my Christs) and my prophets.” In the Vulgate, this verse reads, “Nolite tangere christos meos, et in prophetis meis nolite malignari.”

In the Herodian period the expected Messiah was thought of as a new David, a political leader who would “redeem” Israel from its subjection to foreign powers, whether Babylon, Egypt, or Rome. In passages such as Matt 22:41-46 and Luke 20:41-44 we see Jesus rejecting the idea of a political Messiah, asserting, instead, that he will be a more exalted figure: instead of sitting on the throne of David, he will share the throne of God (Psalm 110). He is warning the people of Judea that he is not the kind of Messiah, or Christ, or king that the Scriptures had led them to expect.

Rather Yes and yes
Psalm 45:6 Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;

Isaiah 9:6-7 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

Ezekiel 37:25 They shall dwell in the land where your fathers dwelt that I gave to my servant Jacob; they and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there for ever; and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;

Is does not matter what some in the Herodian period thought it only matters what is true and what the Scriptures say.
Grace and peace, Bruce

 

[Gingersnaps4]

I’ve always heard she was 14 or 15, but I’m not sure what that’s based on. I’m sure she was a teenager since that was the most common age range to be married in, up until very recent history. My great grandmother grew up in rural Appalachia, she was half Native American, and she was married at 14 and had my grandmother when she was 15. This was in the 1930’s, which was fairly recently.

 

[Sbee0]

Nobody knows for sure and there are no historical or scriptural record but the belief is she was probably a teen and St Joseph was much older.

 

[Nicky777]

Well you can say it’s speculation that’s your prerogative. As for me, I believe the private revelations of Mother Mary of Agreda since it has the stamp of the impremarter. I believe it infuriates our Lord when we don’t consider these special gifts. Granted, knowledge of the age of our Blessed Mother is not required for our salvation, but I think it draws us nearer to The Divine and strengthens the relationship between God and ourselves. Anyway, God love you.

 

[Vico]

Wife.of.Gabriel:

to maintain her virginity which she’d consecrated to God years earlier.

“Consecrated virginity” in Judaism? In the Herodian period? I never heard of that till now. Do you have a source for that?

Temple virgins served in the temple. 2 Baruch 10:19

And you, virgins who spin fine linen, and silk with gold of Ophir, make haste and take all things, and cast them into the fire, so that it may carry them to HIM who made them. And the flame sends them to HIM who created them, so that the enemies do not take possession of them.

http://www.yahwehswordarchives.org/books-of-baruch/2nd-book-baruch-010.htm

 

[thistle]

Well you can say it’s speculation that’s your prerogative. As for me, I believe the private revelations of Mother Mary of Agreda since it has the stamp of the impremarter. I believe it infuriates our Lord when we don’t consider these special gifts. Granted, knowledge of the age of our Blessed Mother is not required for our salvation, but I think it draws us nearer to The Divine and strengthens the relationship between God and ourselves. Anyway, God love you.

The Church specifically states Catholics do not have to believe approved (by the Church) private revelations. Remember they are not part of the Deposit of Faith. They are not new doctrine and nor do they add anything to existing doctrine. If an individual gets a spiritual lift from private revelations that’s good but they cannot be used as evidence to support any claims made.

Take another example:

Mary of Agreda said in her revelations that Mary died 14 years after the death of Jesus.
Saint Bridget of Sweden said in her revelations that Mary died 21 years after the death of Jesus.
Obviously they cannot both be correct yet their revelations are approved by the Church.

 

[BartholomewB]

Thank you for introducing me to 2 Baruch, a book that is wholly new to me. I have to confess that I fail to follow your reasoning in connection with the “Temple virgins.” How did you deduce that from the text? The immediately preceding verse addresses the priests of the Temple, but that seems to be the only possible clue that the “virgins” addressed in v. 19 might be connected in some way with the Temple. Or am I missing something?

 

[Nicky777]

That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. Thank you ans God bless.

 

[Wesrock]

Tis_Bearself:

We don’t know how old Mary was

Actually, we do know how old Mary was…

She was old enough for God… so that should be good enough for all of us

Yep. Catholics do not believe God would have chosen Mary if Mary was incapable of giving perfect consent to being the mother of our Lord. And God being God could know absolutely whether or not she was capable of that.

 

[Vico]

Thank you for introducing me to 2 Baruch, a book that is wholly new to me. I have to confess that I fail to follow your reasoning in connection with the “Temple virgins.” How did you deduce that from the text? The immediately preceding verse addresses the priests of the Temple, but that seems to be the only possible clue that the “virgins” addressed in v. 19 might be connected in some way with the Temple. Or am I missing something?

Catholics use three scriptures about temple virgins.

• Exodus 38:8
• 1 Samuel 2:22
• 2 Macc 3:19-20

Mishna Shekalim 8, 5-6 describes that 82 virgins made the temple veil each year. Pesikta Rabbati 26, 6 how they lived together.

 

[BartholomewB]

Catholics use three scriptures about temple virgins.

• Exodus 38:8
• 1 Samuel 2:22
• 2 Macc 3:19-20

What “Catholics” are these? Clearly not the editors of the Jerusalem Bible, who supply a helpful footnote at Ex 38:8 stating that the duties of the “serving women who served at the entrance to the Tabernacle” are unknown. In any case, there is no suggestion that the “serving women” were consecrated virgins, or even virgins at all.

From what we are told about the women in the Hebrew text of 1 Sam 2:22, though the Septuagint omits the second half of the verse, it is made quite explicit that the women are not virgins. They seem to be the same women in attendance at the entrance to the Tabernacle, though the Jerusalem Bible footnote here suggests that this detail may have been a later addition to the verse, borrowed from Ex 38:8.

Finally, the “virgins” mentioned in 2 Macc 3:19-20 are not in the Temple at all. They rush to the windows and the rooftops, clearly in their own homes, to watch the excitement in the street below. The adult women throng the streets, but the virgins are too young to be allowed out of their homes.

 

[Vico]

… What “Catholics” are these? …

Haydock Commentary
Exodus 38:Verse 8

Mirrors. Formerly all sorts of metal, silver, copper, tin, &c., were used for mirrors, till the Europeans began to make them of glass. The best were made of a mixture of copper and tin. (Pliny, [Natural History?] xxxiii. 9.) — Watched. Hebrew, served like soldiers: fasting and praying, according to the Septuagint and Chaldean. These devout women came thither with great alacrity, to shew their affection towards God, and to consecrate to his service what had hitherto served to nourish vanity. Such were the virgins, mentioned 2 Machabees iii. 19, and those who were abused by the sons of Heli, 1 Kings ii. 22. Ann, the prophetess, and our blessed Lady, were thus also employed in the temple, Luke ii. 37. Women kept watch, singing and dancing before the palace of the Persian kings. (Calmet) — When the tabernacle was fixed at Silo, small apartments were probably built for the convenience of these pious women. (Tirinus)

 

[Vico]

… What “Catholics” are these?

Haydock Commentary 2 Mac 3:Verse 19

Shut up. Hence they were styled alamoth, “hidden,” till they were married. Nothing could give a better idea of the distress of the city. (Calmet) — These virgins remained in places near the temple, spending their time in prayer, fasting, and works of piety, till they were espoused, 1 Kings ii. 22. (St. Ambrose, virg. 1.; St. Nys.[St. Gregory of Nyssa?] or Nativ.; St. Damas[St. John Damascene?] iv. 13.) (Worthington) — There also pious widows dwelt. — Walls of the temple, which they were not allowed to pass. (Menochius) — The city seemed to be taken by an enemy. (Calmet)

 

[Vico]

… What “Catholics” are these? …

Haydock Commentary
1 Samuel 2: Verse 22

Waited, like an army of guards, Exodus xxxvii. 8. The Rabbins pretend that these priests only sent away these women who came to be purified, and allowed them to return to their husbands before the appointed time, and thus caused the latter to offend. These authors are generally very fertile in discoveries. (Calmet) — The virgins or widows gave themselves up to work for the tabernacle. (Menochius) — The sons of Heli found an opportunity in the sacred practices of religion to gratify their passions. Perhaps some false pastors in the Church of Christ may have imitated their perversity. A man of the character of Mr. Crowley, a late deserter of the Catholic faith, judging of others by the corruption of his own heart, would hence insinuate that they all take these liberties, or at least that it is “a miracle,” if they can admit females to confession, without yielding to such base temptations. If this be a miracle, we may confidently hope that wonders have not ceased, otherwise among his other malicious remarks, he would surely have adduced some proofs of his assertion, from the records of past ages. But in reality he seems to be little acquainted (though he pretends to have been converted by it, &c., and falsely asserts it is kept from laymen) either with history or with the Bible, having read perhaps little more than what his Catechism set before him; and this he boldly contradicts, as if he supposed that this “Thoughts” would have more weight than the decisions of the Fathers and of the whole Church. If he can find a professor of Maynooth, and another or two Irish priests, disposed to follow his example, (which we need not believe on his assertion) what would this prove? Yet Mr. Slack lays great stress on this man’s authority, in his late defence of Wesley. (Letters to R. Campion, Esq. Whitby, 1811.) So ready are the enemies of the Catholic faith to scrape together every idle remark that may tend to defame the mother Church! So eager are infidels to reject the faith, on account of the misconduct of some of its degenerate professors! (Haydock) — The best of fathers have often very profligate children, as the latter take pride in the honours of their family, and expect to obtain the same without trouble. (Grotius)

 

[BartholomewB]

In her post #7 on this thread, @Wife.of.Gabriel describes an Orthodox Christian tradition, apparently deriving from a passage in the Protevangelium of James. In this account, according to the poster, Mary was an orphan who had lived in the Temple since the age of three. When she became of marriageable age the priests found a husband for her. A widower was chosen for her to marry, as opposed to a young bachelor, in order to maintain her lifelong virginity, which she had consecrated to God. What I am asking is whether it is historically true that in Second Temple Judaism, in the Herodian period, there was, in fact, such an institution as this kind of consecrated lifelong virginity, which – as I commented in my post #44 – seems rather to be a distant echo of the Vestal Virgins in pagan Rome.

In the three OT passages you list and in Haydock’s commentary on them, virgins are sometimes mentioned among the women who were present in the Tabernacle either as worshipers or to perform a ceremonial duty of some kind. But as far as we can see, the virgins are expected to marry in due course. I have not detected the slightest suggestion, either in the Bible verses or in Haydock’s commentaries, that they have been consecrated to lifelong virginity. Am I missing something?

 

[Vico]

… I have not detected the slightest suggestion, either in the Bible verses or in Haydock’s commentaries, that they have been consecrated to lifelong virginity. Am I missing something?

I only commented on temple virgins.

 

[SeraficLeo]

He is warning the people of Judea that he is not the kind of Messiah, or Christ, or king that the Scriptures had led them to expect.

To be fair, the idea of the Messias in Scripture was always very nuanced, from Genesis onward (e.g. in Gen 3:15). Adam (before the fall) was also considered a type of Christ, because Adam was in a way by nature priest, king and prophet. Other persons, in various ways, were also associated with Christ, like Moses, David and Solomon: from Moses you get the idea that he will most definitely be a religious leader and figure:

Deuteronomy 18:15: 15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen

From David you get the idea of an almost new covenant hinted at, but certainly from David and Solomon you get the idea that he will inaugurate a Temple and probably a Temple even greater than Solomon’s. Herod deliberately played to this when rebuilding the Second Temple, which was a massive reconstruction, to the point where one might wonder if it should even be thought of as the same building (the building was massively elevated to match the height of Solomon’s Temple and even the foundations were supposed to have been completely replaced). Of course, had he claimed to build a whole new Temple (though he virtually did), he would and could have been understood to be claiming to be the Christ/Messiah - no doubt a step way too far for the Jews, who of course knew he couldn’t have been.

 

[SeraficLeo]

in due course

This might be considered key. Of course there is no doubt that fornication was proscribed by God and in the Mosaic covenant, so it would be an odd thing if a virgin presented at the Temple were something noteworthy, as it would have only meant they hadn’t married. Perhaps in that lies some of the significance: “in due course,” you said, they would marry: but what defined this due course of time? A dedication to abstain from marriage for some years in order to perform a service, perhaps, e.g. to assist the Levites in their work or to help provide for unfortunates or the poor, perhaps? Regardless, if there were virgins being presented at or to the Temple at all, one must wonder why this would be done at all, if virginity in most cases simply meant not being married (yet)?

 

[BartholomewB]

A dedication to abstain from marriage for some years in order to perform a service, perhaps, e.g. to assist the Levites in their work or to help provide for unfortunates or the poor, perhaps?

Was there, in fact, an established practice of this kind?

 

[Dan_Defender]

Luke 2:36–38 suggests that Anna the Prophetess was connected to the Temple. So it is not a stretch to think that there were women doing menial work in the Temple for a period of time, and that some of them were young and maybe even virgins. Probably it wasn’t a lifelong service, so finding a husband for Mary was probably the usual thing at the end of her service, as Jews of the Old Covenant did not value virginity. I believe Rabbi Azariah ben Moses wrote about this but it is a 16th century source. I believe there are no ancient Jewish sources. As for Christian sources, both Gregory of Nyssa (4th century) and John Damascene (8th century) mention it.