How on earth do I react to this?

[kage_ar]

Makes one wonder… if they are not Catholic, how do they know what a funeral Mass is supposed to be like?

Pray for them, count it a joy when you are persecuted for righteousness sake.

 

[Ailina]

I think you handled the situation well. These blokes were all drunk and not thinking rationally. You could not reason with them when they are in that state. Leaving like you did was the best choice.

 

[Black_Dog]

I think you handled the situation well. These blokes were all drunk and not thinking rationally. You could not reason with them when they are in that state. Leaving like you did was the best choice.

I dont think I handled the situation at all well. The more I consider it the more convinced I am that I should have walked out immediately. By staying there and attempting to “explain”, all I did was to exacerbate a no-win situation. I mistakenly thought that because I knew these men I would be able to influence them. How wrong I was! I’m clearly not cut out for Apologetics.
I now feel unable to return even if I wanted to - which I dont but there are repercussions in that this is a very small town and I will inevitably meet these people on the street. I havent a clue how I should react when that occurs.
I should add that in my darkest moments I am sorely tempted to go back and throw one particular individual through the window! As I say, that’s in my darkest moments and I do recognise that has more to do with my wounded male ego than a reasoned response - I am praying very hard.
To put all this into a perspective which may serve to clarify to some how on earth this situation came about, the Catholic church has always been demonized in these parts. I myself, as a very young child used to throw stones at Catholics. My own mother, brought up as an Irish protestant and now in her mid 70’s, bless her, is still convinced that priests and nuns regularly have sex and then suffocate the babies. Shocking I know but it was a widely held belief amongst a lot of working class protestant families. At best there is a deep seated mistrust of the Catholic church.

 

[Black_Dog]

I’ve just read this thread and I wish I hadnt started it. It’s totally self-centred…me,me,me.

I need to build some bridges and the best way to do that is, as someone suggested right at the very beginning, is to go back and show that my new found Faith has indeed a positive influence. If I cant even do that then there is no point in me continuing.

 

[wynnejj]

Black Dog,

You needn’t apologize for starting this thread. It is very instructive to some about what others experience in a wide variety of contexts. It seems to me that part of the reason for CAF as a forum is to some degree to provide a kind of therapy for those Catholics who face confusion & hurt in the real world and, maybe some fruitful advice.

Catholic bashing is common everywhere, but your particular environment is a little more intense than what I experience. Given the circumstances, simply saying “I think it best that I just go.” was exactly the right thing to do. Attempting to defend your faith when under attack by friendlies is particularly shocking & hurtful. The delay in leaving was perfectly understandable. You had to feel out wherefrom the animosity was coming.

Of course, you know you have to temper your understandable anger towards those individuals who you feel breached your friendship most egregiously.

You can give the greatest Catholic witness by not avoiding them, and not holding them accountable in future discourse, and simply being a friend who accepts friends regardless of faults.

You can bet that this situation was manufactured and incited by devilry for the express purpose of testing your friendship and blackening your world view. As a Catholic, ‘dumping’ them is out of the question as I understand it.

You will probably be surprised that being loyal to friends that blew it has a way of strengthening your friendship forever. As your monicker suggests, you are a dog person, not a cat person. Don’t be catty. Be stupid loyal like the best attributes of man’s best friend.

Peace.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I think that bar has bad beer! Apologetics to a group of drunks is dangerous!

Congratulations and enjoy this Easter! I converted Easter of 1994!

 

[Didi]

It makes you wonder about the circumstances of the funeral. Sounds like there was a lot of anger there, not really at you, but at the priest, at the Church, maybe at God or at the person who died?

I have been in similar situations in family gatherings. I only defend so far, then say something like “well, let’s just agree to disagree right now so this doesn’t turn into something we’ll regret.” Or “you believe strongly in your point, and I in mine, and we’re not going to change each other’s minds, so let’s just drop it.”

If the person you’re trying to explain to isn’t receptive, you can talk until you’re blue and it won’t do any good. This is why Jesus warned us not to cast pearls before swine.

Don’t beat yourself up about how you reacted. You were in a very emotional and public environment. You acted with dignity and didn’t attack anyone physically. We all go over situations afterwards with “I should have said this, or, I should have done that.” You did the best with what you were given at the time.

 

[Black_Dog]

It makes you wonder about the circumstances of the funeral. Sounds like there was a lot of anger there, not really at you, but at the priest, at the Church, maybe at God or at the person who died?

I have been in similar situations in family gatherings. I only defend so far, then say something like “well, let’s just agree to disagree right now so this doesn’t turn into something we’ll regret.” Or “you believe strongly in your point, and I in mine, and we’re not going to change each other’s minds, so let’s just drop it.”

If the person you’re trying to explain to isn’t receptive, you can talk until you’re blue and it won’t do any good. This is why Jesus warned us not to cast pearls before swine.

Don’t beat yourself up about how you reacted. You were in a very emotional and public environment. You acted with dignity and didn’t attack anyone physically. We all go over situations afterwards with “I should have said this, or, I should have done that.” You did the best with what you were given at the time.

Most of the anger was originally centred on the Priest. They felt he didnt do justice to their friend but I’m at a loss as to what they were comparing it with as none of them were Catholics. My priest is going through a very emotional time with the imminent death of his sister. In fact he left immediately after the service to be by her side. I did try explaining that but was met with hoots of derision. As you say sometimes you just have to back off.
It went downhill rapidly from there with one of them describing me as an **** licker of God. It was at that point where common sense kicked in and I said “and on that point I’ll leave you to it”.

But I have a plan. Tonight at Mass I lit a candle for them and me and prayed to Our Lady for help. I’m going to go back in there. I know they are basically decent people. I dont expect a lot but even if I can get just one of them to perhaps reflect privately that they were being unjust it will be a beginning. I just have to show them that I’m not afraid and that my Faith is a positive thing.
I have to admit to feeling uniquely unsuited to the task but "fools rush in…lol

 

[Morwenna]

Strangely enough … just a few minutes ago, I was listening to “The Good Fight” on EWTN radio, and the guest was a gentleman from England named Greg Clovis. When asked about the current state of religion in England, he said that the major “religion” today is atheism. I walked in from listening to this show and opened up CAF, and this thread was the first to catch my attention. It certainly sounds as if England has a very anti-religious climate these days.

Black Dog, you have my sympathies for being in this difficult situation, and also my admiration: I think that you behaved very courageously, by defending the faith without resorting to violence. Well done, my friend

One small bright spot I wanted to share from the radio program mentioned above: a young lady from Maryland named “Avelina” called the program and said that she had been fascinated with England as long as she could remember, and in fact had taken the name of one of the English martyrs, St Margaret Ward, as her confirmation name. She said that her intention in a few years is to go to England and spread the faith “among the atheists and the Anglicans.” How cool is that?

On that happy note, I’ll close and say that you’ll be in my prayers, Black Dog, as you work through the difficulties of next few days and weeks. May St Michael be by your side during this time.

 

[Black_Dog]

Strangely enough … just a few minutes ago, I was listening to “The Good Fight” on EWTN radio, and the guest was a gentleman from England named Greg Clovis. When asked about the current state of religion in England, he said that the major “religion” today is atheism. I walked in from listening to this show and opened up CAF, and this thread was the first to catch my attention. It certainly sounds as if England has a very anti-religious climate these days.

Black Dog, you have my sympathies for being in this difficult situation, and also my admiration: I think that you behaved very courageously, by defending the faith without resorting to violence. Well done, my friend

One small bright spot I wanted to share from the radio program mentioned above: a young lady from Maryland named “Avelina” called the program and said that she had been fascinated with England as long as she could remember, and in fact had taken the name of one of the English martyrs, St Margaret Ward, as her confirmation name. She said that her intention in a few years is to go to England and spread the faith “among the atheists and the Anglicans.” How cool is that?

On that happy note, I’ll close and say that you’ll be in my prayers, Black Dog, as you work through the difficulties of next few days and weeks. May St Michael be by your side during this time.

There is no such thing as coincidence!

The UK is really not that bad. Catholicism is on the ascendency for the first time since the days of Henry V111. due mainly to the influx of Eastern Europeans. They are so devout and so full of reverence, just amazing to watch. I suppose it comes from all those years of battling for their religion in the teeth of Communism. They are wonderful people. Unfortunately, as the recession bites they have begun to leave and return to their homelands where job prospects are better

Despite that I am convinced there is a “sea change” afoot where more and more people are coming back to God. A friend and I were only discussing that the other day. We know so many people, just like ourselves who after a lifetime in the wilderness are beginning to move away from bankrupt New Age philosophies and enter the church and its the Catholic Church. t’s almost becoming trendy

God bless

Kevin

 

[babesinarms]

There is no such thing as coincidence!

The UK is really not that bad. Catholicism is on the ascendency for the first time since the days of Henry V111. due mainly to the influx of Eastern Europeans. They are so devout and so full of reverence, just amazing to watch. I suppose it comes from all those years of battling for their religion in the teeth of Communism. They are wonderful people. Unfortunately, as the recession bites they have begun to leave and return to their homelands where job prospects are better

Despite that I am convinced there is a “sea change” afoot where more and more people are coming back to God. A friend and I were only discussing that the other day. We know so many people, just like ourselves who after a lifetime in the wilderness are beginning to move away from bankrupt New Age philosophies and enter the church and its the Catholic Church. t’s almost becoming trendy

God bless

Kevin

That is what we are finding here in Australia as well (one of them here after having been a catholic most of my life!) - it is so refreshing to know that it’s becoming that way in the UK as well. By the way, you did very well in walking away when you did, funerals can stir up a lot of emotion in people and when there’s drink involved, not a good look indeed!! Wish you the best when you see your ‘friends’ again!!

 

[Black_Dog]

I agree, that young lady is in for a bit of a shock but she’s young and full of religious fervour so anything is possible. I’m not sure the country is secular or if it is, it’s wide open to evangelisation. People are seeking something else in their lives. In another post I described how complete strangers smile at me when I walk down the street after Mass. They recognise something but dont know what it is but they are drawn to it nevertheless.
I had the exacxt same conversation with my priest only last week at the RCIA meeting. He too was bemoaning the fact that we live in a secular society and I disagreed. There is a change afoot and my priest is instrumental in that change. If it wasnt for him I’d still be floundering, lost and miserable. AND there are lots of people just like me. AND I’m not even young - I’m in my mid 50’s!! Every one is looking for God only they dont know it. It really is just a change of perspective that’s needed and suddenly the whole country just looks different.

Kevin

 

[Black_Dog]

You are determined to be pessimistic! You’re probably thinking “this guy isnt even a Catholic - he’s on an RCIA programme filled with fervour which wont last - I’ve seen it all before”. My priest thought the exact same thing. In fact i was asked to leave the last RCIA programme as I was “disruptive to the dynamics of the group”. Ahem. Well I was. I came in at a full sprint and caused mayem. In my defence the other members of the RCIA programme seemed to consist of blokes who’d married Catholic woman, had taken a vow to convert to Catholicism and were there out of pennance with no real interest other than getting home as soon as they could. No criticism implied.
It’s a shame as the Catholic faith has so much to offer. It’s vibrant and alive and has 2,000 years of tradition to back it up.

Eventually they had to let me in to another RCIA programme. And here I am…lol I take it very, very seriously. I want to know everything I can know about God, Christ, the Holy Spirit and his Church. I bombard the priest with questions…and you know what…he’s beginning to enjoy it as is the Deacon.

The point I’m trying to make in all of this is that I’m not alone. There are thousands of people like me and thousands more who could be just like me. I was introduced to God by a friend who in turn was introduced by another friend. I’ve since introduced other friends and relations. We are like dominoes - all we need is push and we all topple towards God. It’s our natural direction.

Kevin

 

[GratefulFred]

Black Dog, you are a fine man.

Among the many good responses, one of the best so far I think was from Wymmejj at #25. Some more perspective:

“Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.” You acted on this. You realized that the group was not interested in a thoughtful discussion so you simply left without insulting them.

I know that it is very hard to hold your ground when the discussion is several against one. And harder still when the several are upset and drinking and not wanting to consider your thoughts in any positive light.

I would not be too concerned about a one time event or such an event that is infrequent. We all have our bad days. If the “normal” encounter is like the one you described, then I would not return to that pub. There’s a story in the New Testament where Jesus said, go into the town and preach. If they accept you, stay a while. If they reject you, shake the dust from your sandals and leave. You made the effort as Jesus hopes we all would. But you also left as Jesus expects when those hearing you are not interested.

 

[Black_Dog]

I have been so arrogant in this post. My apologies to all. I dont know what I was thinking of.
On a brighter note, I’ve just bought a small herd of pregnant goats…lol Truly I have. I have 17 members of my family descending on me over Christmas and I was at my wits end as to what to buy them for Christmas presents. Instead I’ve bought each person an in -kid goat. They will all go off to Africa (the goats, not my family) to help destitute families. Believe it or not a single goat can make a huge difference to the lives of these people. A pregnant goat represents wealth.

I feel really chuffed and it’s a lot easier than trying to pick out individual Christmas presents.

A Merry Christmas to all of you

 

[wynnejj]

Believe it or not a single goat can make a huge difference to the lives of these people. A pregnant goat represents wealth.

Believe it or not, it works that way with people too.
Merry Christmas.

P.S. Beautiful Christmas present!