How or why?

[benidict]

“clinically sterile” aka factual?
‘One of the greatest tragedies in life is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts’. -Ben Franklin

so in Acts 7:38 what does the word “ekklēsia” mean in regard to Moses?

*“He was in the ekklēsia *(assembly or church) in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.”

what CHURCH was Moses in while in the desert?

well. im no scholar. heck! i barely passed highschool. someone will undoubtably give you a very good answer to this. but just a question since you have the knowledge to answer it. how many nations of Israel were there? how many congregations in the desert with their own beliefs that dissented from what Moses recieved from God? there were one people then, and still one people. like i said, im not too smart. so please enlighten me, as to all the differing denominations in the desert with Moses. i cant seem to find them. Peace

 

[tester]

well. im no scholar. heck! i barely passed highschool. someone will undoubtably give you a very good answer to this. but just a question since you have the knowledge to answer it. how many nations of Israel were there? how many congregations in the desert with their own beliefs that dissented from what Moses recieved from God? there were one people then, and still one people. like i said, im not too smart. so please enlighten me, as to all the differing denominations in the desert with Moses. i cant seem to find them. Peace

All believers are part of the One Church(aka ekklēsian, aka an assembly, a (religious) congregation, aka body of believers) founded by Jesus.

As Protestant I have NOT left the Church of Christ.

 

[elvisman]

“clinically sterile” aka factual?
‘One of the greatest tragedies in life is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts’. -Ben Franklin

so in Acts 7:38 what does the word “ekklēsia” mean in regard to Moses?

*“He was in the ekklēsia *(assembly or church) in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.”

what CHURCH was Moses in while in the desert?

Ay, ay, ay - you’re STILL not getting it.
I’ll explain in a more simplistic way. Read the following very carefully and sowly:

The definitions you gave are all correct - in a wooden, literal sense. However, they are not nuanced as they are in the following verses in which Christ is talking about HIS Church and Paul is speaking of THE Church (only ONE): Matt. 16:18, Matt. 18:17, 1 Tim. 3:15, Eph. 1:22-23

You must also remember that the closest Greek word to the Aramaic kehala is ekklesia. Aramaic is the language Jesus spoke - not Greek.

Does that make sense to you or are you still going to persist with dictionary games? People don’t speak as if reciting from a dictionary.
*****Weak *arguments . . .

 

[elvisman]

All believers are part of the One Church(aka ekklēsian, aka an assembly, a (religious) congregation, aka body of believers) founded by Jesus.

As Protestant I have NOT left the Church of Christ.

Can you show me a Biblical precedent for leaving the authority of the Church when you disagree with it?

 

[NoAvailableName]

1 Revelation 4

John to the seven churches that are in Asia…

 

[NoAvailableName]

Paul did not recognize any authority from a human led church and actively opposed the alleged first pope (Paul would not have considered Peter to be the first pope).

Galations 1

… I did not receive it from any man… I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me

Galations 2

…But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, …

 

[elvisman]

Paul did not recognize any authority from a human led church and actively opposed the alleged first pope (Paul would not have considered Peter to be the first pope).

Galations 1

… I did not receive it from any man… I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me

Galations 2

…But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, …

Weak.
Paul rebuked Peter on a behavioral matter. He did not override his Authority.
Peter was wrong and Paul called him on it.

As for Paul’s mission - he got his orders directly from Jesus and he went to the leaders of the Church to be sent out.
**He didn’t rely on the Bible because it hadn’t been written and compiled yet. **
The Reformers and all of their descendants have all relied on their OWN interpretations of Scripture to justfy their ecclesial divorce - which is NOWHERE sanctioned in the Bible itself.

 

[benidict]

Paul did not recognize any authority from a human led church and actively opposed the alleged first pope (Paul would not have considered Peter to be the first pope).

Galations 1

… I did not receive it from any man… I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me

Galations 2

…But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, …

really??? he didnt??? interesting. when the Judaizers were trying to enforce the gentiles to be circumcised, and follow the law of moses. paul certainly did bring it up to the authority instituted by Christ. it was peter, who made the final judgment call. paul was not some lone ranger out their my friend. he very much did indeed recognize the authority of peter. did he confront him on some issues dealing with race? yes. but tell me one point in doctrine, where paul confronted peter and denounced him. i look forward to your response. thanx in advance. peace

 

[tester]

**Can you show me a Biblical **precedent for leaving the authority of the Church when you disagree with it?

I did not and have not left the Church: (the body of believers)

Straight to the point : Are Protestant beleivers,who are called by Christ , and drawn to Christ by means of the word of the Gospel and by the redemptive power of the the perfect sacfrifice part of the Church founded by Christ?

 

[benidict]

All believers are part of the One Church(aka ekklēsian, aka an assembly, a (religious) congregation, aka body of believers) founded by Jesus.

As Protestant I have NOT left the Church of Christ.

i appreciate the patient clarification my friend. like i said, im not the brightest bulb in the batch…

peace

 

[NoAvailableName]

Weak.
**Paul rebuked Peter on a behavioral **matter. He did not override his Authority.
Peter was wrong and Paul called him on it.

Feel free to give evidence that Paul recognized Peter’s authority.

 

[NoAvailableName]

it was peter, who made the final judgment call. paul was not some lone ranger out their my friend. he very much did indeed recognize the authority of peter.

There is absolutely no evidence that Paul would have deferred to Peter’s judgement had Peter not accepted Paul’s rebuke. Paul already knew he was right and Peter was wrong.

Galations 2

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

 

[NoAvailableName]

If it isn’t obvious, Cephas = Peter. They are the same person.

 

[benidict]

Feel free to give evidence that Paul recognized Peter’s authority.

i thought we just did…:coffeeread: whooooo boy!

 

[Jimdandy]

Please tell me where this is in the Catechism.

CCC 838
"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

 

[elvisman]

I did not and have not left the Church: (the body of believers)

Straight to the point : Are Protestant beleivers,who are called by Christ , and drawn to Christ by means of the word of the Gospel and by the redemptive power of the the perfect sacfrifice part of the Church founded by Christ?

**All Protestants have the partial truth.
True believers who were baptized into the Christian faith via the Trinitarian Formula (as prescribed by Christ himself) are Christians.

**As I stated - Protestants possess a *partial *truth and are being called to the fullness of the truth that is only found in the Catholic Church. I didn’t set it up that way - Jesus did. Many have responded to that call - including many on this forum. **

The Holy Spirit can work through ANY means or situations to bring those believers home to Christ’s only Church. Throughout the Bible, God worked even through his enemies to achieve his ends - even men like Pharoah or the Sanhedrin who brought about the killing of Jesus.

For somebody to imply that God cannot reach Protestants is a falshood of epic proportions. He can and DOES. Many Protestants are faithful, fruit-producing Christians who for whatever reason have not embraced the fullness of the faith. Some haven’t because of ignorance and others because of spiritual pride.

Whatever the reason - even though related to the Church - they are outside of it.

 

[elvisman]

Feel free to give evidence that Paul recognized Peter’s authority.

All you have to do is read Acts 15.
Judaizers were telling gentiles that they had to be circumcised before converting to Christianity. After much discussion - it was PETER who got up and made the decision. James also stood up after him and concurred.
They sent out Paul and Barnabas to them and commissioned Judas and Silas to go along with them (v. 25-27)

Did Paul disagree with Peter’s decision? Did he say, "Hey, Peter - you can’t send me. I do my own thing!"
No - he obediently went where he was sent.

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]E=elvisman;7348588]All you have to do is read Acts 15.
Judaizers were telling gentiles that they had to be circumcised before converting to Christianity. After much discussion - it was PETER who got up and made the decision. James also stood up after him and concurred.
They sent out Paul and Barnabas to them and commissioned Judas and Silas to go along with them (v. 25-27)

Did Paul disagree with Peter’s decision? Did he say, "Hey, Peter - you can’t send me. I do my own thing!"
No - he obediently went where he was sent.

**Acts.15: 2 ** “And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.”

 

[elvisman]

All you have to do is read Acts 15.
Judaizers were telling gentiles that they had to be circumcised before converting to Christianity. After much discussion - it was PETER who got up and made the decision. James also stood up after him and concurred.
They sent out Paul and Barnabas to them and commissioned Judas and Silas to go along with them (v. 25-27)

Did Paul disagree with Peter’s decision? Did he say, “Hey, Peter - you can’t send me. I do my own thing!”
No - he obediently went where he was sent.

Acts.15: 2"And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question."

**Precisely my point.

 

[PJM]

=Bluegoat;7346486]Tell me PJM - how do you understand the it when Paul talks about the Church at Ephasus, or in Rome? Or how do you understand that there is a Latin Church and an Eastern Church? Do they mean the Church is not unified?

Of course not. The question is - what is meant by unity?

Catholics define unity as being in communion with the Pope.

The Orthodox and Protestants define it differently. THe Otrthodox might say the important things are unity in belief and communion with others in the Church, in a sort of web of communion.

There would be some variation among the main types of Protestants. But a common idea would be that we are unified by our faith in Christ, and that every individual that has faith in Christ is in the Body of Christ, that is the Church.

This makes perfect sense for those who do not believe in apostolic succession. If that is true, then the visible Church would have to be congregationalist in structure.

I am always surprised when people say they don’t understand it. It is not so different from the Catholic understanding of the Church Triumphant which will contain people who were not visibly in the Church to us, and may not contain some her were. If you can get that concept, you can get the Protestant idea.

***My dear friend in Christ,

Can we agree [there are in excess of 100 NT references to support this postion] that what was is ONE CHURCH, and what is desired by God is ONE CHURCH.

One Church means: One Faith, One set of beliefs, and One noe fulfilled New Covennt in our Lord’s Blood. [Eph. 2 and Eph. 4, support well Matt. 16:15-19, Matt. 18:18 and Matt. 28:19-20]. This is furter verifid by John 14: 16-17, and John 17: 14-19; which apply ONLY to the CC.

I favor unity, because God favors unity. Both God and I favor it so loing as it confoms to he Faith and Morals teachings of Christ One CC. I certanly LOVE and Respect our Orthodox Bretheren, as well s non-Catholic Chritinas seking the Singular Truth.

God’s continued Blessings,
Pat***