How or why?

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I’m right here. Maybe you could ask some useful questions in the course of talking to me instead of talking about me.
LOL! Oh, the egregiousness of saying the above, when this has been done by the same poster.

To wit:
If she does this more than once, just ignore her.
Just so you folks know, I was in the room too when this post was made. Cooterhein was not talking to me, but rather about me.
 
You have scriptural references where Jesus gave anyone the authority to found their own church,which has lead to thousands of denominations?
Protestants do not claim God-given authority to found their own church, as in a restoration movement, a cult, or some other apostate type of situation. Protestants don’t claim to operate outside of Christ’s One Church. We form congregations in different places (not “our own churches”) that are all united to His Body, but we do not claim to do what is herein described.

I’m not going to track down Bible references in order to support an assertion that has nothing to do with Protestantism or with Christianity.
 
I just told you why that request makes no sense. Therefore, I’m not going to do it.
Of course it makes sense,you just had to come up with a weak excuse,because I caught you in a lie and a distortion. Here read it again,your own words:

“…there are technically over 240 Catholic denominations in the world (and that’s just the Catholics in full communion with Rome).”

If they are 240 denominations,then apparently the CC would make the same claim,thus the reason I asked you to show me the CC document making such a declaration and statement?
 
I’ve been waiting on answers to these questions for quite some time now. Let’s see what comes back, shall we?
  1. Who is it that unites Christians into the Body of Christ?
  2. Are all Christians united into the Body of Christ?
  3. How did the now-identified person/people from number 1 pull off what happened in number 2?
 
Protestants do not claim God-given authority to found their own church, as in a restoration movement, a cult, or some other apostate type of situation. Protestants don’t claim to operate outside of Christ’s One Church. We form congregations in different places (not “our own churches”) that are all united to His Body, but we do not claim to do what is herein described.

I’m not going to track down Bible references in order to support an assertion that has nothing to do with Protestantism or with Christianity.
Exactly! Because not one non-Catholic had ANY authority from God…period! So how can you make the claim you are part of His ONE Body,if you have no such authority? One cannot just hijack the ONE Body of Christ and say: We are all united to His Body,even if we are so divided in many issues.
 
I’ve been waiting on answers to these questions for quite some time now. Let’s see what comes back, shall we?
  1. Who is it that unites Christians into the Body of Christ?
Jesus.
  1. Are all Christians united into the Body of Christ?
By virtue of their baptism they become united to the Body of Christ. They divorce themselves from this Body to the degree that they depart from the teachings proclaimed by this Body.
  1. How did the now-identified person/people from number 1 pull off what happened in number 2?
See answer to #2.
 
How about this. I will give some Scripture references if you go back and answer the set of three questions that I posed to you earlier.
Ok. 3 questions answered.

Please give Scriptural references as promised!
 
If they are 240 denominations,then apparently the CC would make the same claim,thus the reason I asked you to show me the CC document making such a declaration and statement?
The CC has authority over many things, but it does not have authority in determing the criteria by which a denomination is called a denomination. Of course the CC doesn’t declare themselves to have over 240 denominations, any more than Protestants claim to have over 30k.

You have to take the 240+ along with the 30k, if you really want the 30k figure, that is. If you reject the 240+, you must also understand that you’re rejecting a certain way of counting denominations, and when you reject it, you’re unable to count anywhere close to 30k Protestant denominations.

Do you understand?
 
I’ve been waiting on answers to these questions for quite some time now. Let’s see what comes back, shall we?
  1. Who is it that unites Christians into the Body of Christ?
  2. Are all Christians united into the Body of Christ?
  3. How did the now-identified person/people from number 1 pull off what happened in number 2?
Not until you provide scriptural references where Jesus gave anyone the authority to go found different denominations? You all claim to follow the Bible to the last letter,so where is that in the Bible?
 
The CC has authority over many things, but it does not have authority in determing the criteria by which a denomination is called a denomination. Of course the CC doesn’t declare themselves to have over 240 denominations, any more than Protestants claim to have over 30k.

You have to take the 240+ along with the 30k, if you really want the 30k figure, that is. If you reject the 240+, you must also understand that you’re rejecting a certain way of counting denominations, and when you reject it, you’re unable to count anywhere close to 30k Protestant denominations.

Do you understand?
U-huh…nice divergence there. Should I post your own words again? Admit it,there is no such thing as 240 CC denominations in FULL COMMUNION w/Rome.
 
Not necessarily. Congregations with the exact same doctrine may be counted as different denominations simply because they reside in different countries.
This also is incorrect.

“A Christian denomination is an identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine within Christianity.”

Thus, Catholicism is ONE. Any other religious body that has a separate name, structure and doctrine within Christianity counts as another denomination.
This is the main reason why you can count over 30k Protestant denominations.
Yes. So it would be OVER 30K minus 240 plus 1.

(Math happens to be my second love, right after Apologetics. Well, Math and Grammar. 🙂 Oh, and add to that Reading.)
I know that. Did you know that there’s even more Anglican “denominations” that belong to the same Anglican communion, yet they make an even larger contribution to the total number of Protestant denominations?
The number is quite obscene, isn’t it? Just what the devil ordered, IMHO.
 
U-huh…nice divergence there. Should I post your own words again? Admit it,there is no such thing as 240 CC denominations in FULL COMMUNION w/Rome.
No, there’s not. But that’s not what I said. I referred to the Catholics who belong to those 240+ “denominations” (as they are counted by statisticians), and those Catholics represent all Catholics who are in full communion with Rome. If you wish to count all the “denominations” of all Christian communions that have apostolic succession, you’d be able to get over 1,000 with the EOC alone, and with all the rest of them, at least another thousand.

What I need you to understand is that the 30k figure for Protestant denominations has the same degree of legitimacy as the 240+ figure for Catholic denominations. Those numbers are arrived at by identical methods.

Do you understand?
 
What I need you to understand is that the 30k figure for Protestant denominations has the same degree of legitimacy as the 240+ figure for Catholic denominations. Those numbers are arrived at by identical methods.
Please cite the methods and statisticians that you’re using. What statisticians are these?

Thanks!
 
Please cite the methods and statisticians that you’re using. What statisticians are these?

Thanks!
This is from the World Christian Encyclopedia. Since it started doing what it does, it’s been essentially unrivaled as the authoritative source on religious data.

Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.

Emphasis mine.

Instead of 33,000 denominations, then, it might be better to focus on the 300 ecclesiastical traditions. It is between these groups that you’ll actually see some differences in…you know…ecclesiastical tradition.
 
As promised, here’s some Scripture. It’s from 1 Corinthians 12.

“Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.”

We now know there is one body. No more than that. We also know how a person becomes a part of it- if s/he is baptized by one Spirit to form one body, and given one Spirit to drink. You may believe this baptism by one Spirit always coincides with a certain sacrament, but I can’t agree with that because for me, they did not coincide.

“Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.”

From this passage, we know that there are many parts (or members, depending on the translation) but just one body.

Taken together, these passages tell you something of great significance. It is by the baptism of one Spirit that we form one body (sorry, PR, He is God but He’s not Jesus). We also know that there are differences between the parts of the body, yet it is one. Therefore, if the differences between the parts are not such that we should conclude that a person hasn’t actually been baptized by one Spirit into the body, we must conclude that such a person has been baptized into the body but has their own characteristics that are different from the other parts.

Of course, these passages are speaking in the form of an analogy, so it helps to see where it’s connected to individual Christians who are united to the Body of Christ.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

We probably could have guessed that, but we don’t have to. The connection is made for us. “You” refers to Christians who read this. Each of these Christians becomes a part of the Body of Christ by means of baptism of one Spirit, so as to form one Body. Who or what else would be baptized by one Sprit into such a body?

These are my contributions from Scripture. I admit I was a little reluctant to do anything with it because I have a high regard for Scripture and am reluctant to use it in in conversations that are characterized by…well, some of the things that you see on this thread. I’m going to see what you do with this, you’ll probably make me regret it, and then I’ll have to wrap it up pretty soon. It’s getting late and I still have some work to do.
 
I’m also going to add that in the aformentioned source (the World Christian Encyclopedia), the 33,000 figure for denominations is for Christianity as a whole- and then some. For example, Roman Catholics contribute 242 to the total, Protestants get a nice round 9,000 figure, and Independents contribute 22,000, of which 435 are in schism from Rome.

Additionally, there’s the “marginals” that account for 1600 denominations. They certainly aren’t Protestant, and they aren’t even Christian denominations. Nevertheless, they are included in the final assessment. This includes JW’s, Mormons, some mind science cults, some that are Arian, Unitarians/Universalists, Theosophicals, Gnostics, spiritist/psychic/occult, and the like. Also remember that the additions of these groups are not just represented by the name associated with them. Each one adds up to as many denominations as countries that group is represented in.

For example, JW’s account for 226 denominations and Mormons add 122 denominations to this list.

That should give you a better idea of the size, shape, and nature of the “30,000 plus” animal that is so frequently and uncritically applied to Protestantism. It’s actually a number that represents the total number of denominations in all of Christianity, and they are counted in such a way that Roman Catholicism consists of 242 denominations and 435 denominations currently in schism from Rome.

This should give you a better idea of what it means when you see figures like 9,000 Protestant denominations and 22,000 independent denominations as well.

And PR, you’re welcome.
 
It seems that I’ve been left alone on this thread, so I’ll get caught up with this little matter as well.
You must be truly that prideful or that much in denial. Here I’ll say it again about Irenaeus:
His writings affirm both that regeneration happens in baptism, and also that Jesus came so even infants could be regenerated,so you are wrong again.
Prideful? In denial? I’m not perfect, but I haven’t done enough to deserve the kind of rhetoric that you so consistently use with me. And you keep using it, even when I ask you to stop. Be that as it may, this is the explanation pertaining to the question of whether or not infant baptism is spoken of by Irenaeus.

You reference a passage from Irenaeus that says the following:

“He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.”

The immediate context of this section is as follows: Irenaeus has just made some erroneous claims about Christ; namely, that His public ministry lasted much longer than just a year, that He lived to be over the age of 40, and that He experience all stages of life, including old age. Because of this, he references the various stages of life- infants, children, boys, youths, old men. He does not list these life stages in terms of who could be or sometimes was baptized. He does it in order to provide an example of how to use the allegorical method in order to reach conclusions that are false. Christ lived through all stages of life in order that/so that He could save all people in all age groups. That’s the substance of his message.

Elsewhere, we can see other things that Irenaeus says about salvation in general. He also mentions “innocent children,” which surely includes infants.

“And again, who are they that have been saved and received the inheritance? Those, doubtless, who do believe God, and who have continued in His love; as did Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, and innocent children, who have had no sense of evil.”

You might ask yourself why he doesn’t mention baptism. Shouldn’t that be central to any response of an apostolic Christian to such a question? Someone asks you, Who are they that have been saved and received the inheritance? You say, Those who believe God and who have continued in His love. Give a few examples, mention that innocent children will also receive the inheritance, and you’re done.

So first, Irenaeus doesn’t allude to baptismal regeneration or baptism of any kind (whether by water or by the Holy Spirit) in his response. He is complete in his response to the extent that he comments on the status of small children, but he somehow leaves out baptism. Additionally, he appears to be more of the “saved by innocence” school of thought with regard to young children and, presumably, infants.

While Irenaeus’ response to the “Who are they that have been saved?” question is interesting in that he could complete one without mentioning baptism, he did say a few things that support it. One of them makes use of the allegorical method of interpretation (again). Irenaeus references Namaan, the way he dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and how he came up healed of leprosy. He associates this with baptism by water:

“…it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions…”

So yes, Irenaeus was an advocate of baptismal regeneration. But no, he did not reference infant baptism. Infants are mentioned in a couple of places for a couple of reasons, but never in support of an infant baptism that must happen in order to assure that they will “receive the promise.” Rather, he supports the “innocence” theory where infants and children that have “no sense of evil” will be saved and “receive the inheritance.”

Thus, it is fully accurate to represent Irenaeus as one who advocated a child- and infant-specific soteriology that had to do with innocence and their sense of evil rather than baptism, and it’s also accurate to say infant baptism was not spoken of for the first 200 years of Christianity. Furthermore, it’s accurate to say Tertullian was the first to mention it explicitly, and he wrote against it. Justin Martyr also wrote in a way that was opposed to it in 155, but he was not as explicit. It is interesting, however, that Justin did this in Rome.
 
Ah, interesting. I didn’t see this comment earlier.
Exactly! Because not one non-Catholic had ANY authority from God…period! So how can you make the claim you are part of His ONE Body,if you have no such authority? One cannot just hijack the ONE Body of Christ and say: We are all united to His Body,even if we are so divided in many issues.
As you can see in the Scripture that I have now made reference to, it is not through human exercise of authority that people are united to the Body of Christ. It is done “by one Spirit, so as to form one body.” We don’t believe any “member” or “part” of this body has any more God-given authority than another (although some may exercise plenty of authority over others), but even if some did have God-given authority (which you believe), it doesn’t prevent people from being joined to the Body of Christ while belonging to a denomination that has no apostolic succession (which you also believe). If we can agree to disagree on who has authority, we should be able to reach a similar conclusion on the rest of the matter, although we may get there by different routes.

There is one thing I’m still curious about, though. I’d really like to get an answer to this question, so I’m going to do try really hard to get a response. This is not a question that has to do with ideals or how things should be. It’s a question that has to do with the dirty reality of how it really is.

Do you doubt that Protestants and members of Independent denominations are joined to Christ’s Body while being so different from Catholics and each other? Do you doubt that Protestants/Independents can be joined to Christ’s Body while being so different from Catholics and each other?

Why or why not?

Again, I’m not asking what you think we/they should do. I know that- you want to see everyone convert to Catholicism and be in submission to the teaching authority of the pope. But we know that Christianity in the world today is further from this idealized state than it has ever been. Knowing that this is the present reality, I’m asking for your opinion on how it really is.
 
I’m not going to track down Bible references in order to support an assertion that has nothing to do with Protestantism or with Christianity.
If you wanted to prove your point or win an argument you would “track down Bible references,” wouldn’t you?

“denominations” – also, please stop using protestant terminology to define Catholicism.

denomination … de-nominate … demoninate … it all sounds greek to me.
 
As promised, here’s some Scripture. It’s from 1 Corinthians 12.

“Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.”

We now know there is one body. No more than that. We also know how a person becomes a part of it- if s/he is baptized by one Spirit to form one body, and given one Spirit to drink. You may believe this baptism by one Spirit always coincides with a certain sacrament, but I can’t agree with that because for me, they did not coincide.

“Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.”

From this passage, we know that there are many parts (or members, depending on the translation) but just one body.

Taken together, these passages tell you something of great significance. It is by the baptism of one Spirit that we form one body (sorry, PR, He is God but He’s not Jesus). We also know that there are differences between the parts of the body, yet it is one. Therefore, if the differences between the parts are not such that we should conclude that a person hasn’t actually been baptized by one Spirit into the body, we must conclude that such a person has been baptized into the body but has their own characteristics that are different from the other parts.

Of course, these passages are speaking in the form of an analogy, so it helps to see where it’s connected to individual Christians who are united to the Body of Christ.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

We probably could have guessed that, but we don’t have to. The connection is made for us. “You” refers to Christians who read this. Each of these Christians becomes a part of the Body of Christ by means of baptism of one Spirit, so as to form one Body. Who or what else would be baptized by one Sprit into such a body?

These are my contributions from Scripture. I admit I was a little reluctant to do anything with it because I have a high regard for Scripture and am reluctant to use it in in conversations that are characterized by…well, some of the things that you see on this thread. I’m going to see what you do with this, you’ll probably make me regret it, and then I’ll have to wrap it up pretty soon. It’s getting late and I still have some work to do.
um…i may not be the sharpest tool in the shed my friend. but, how does this refer to denominations? this refers to GIFTS within the Church, Christ set up, does it not? i can guarantee, that at the time of this writing, there was only ONE Church. there was no congregation that held any different doctrines than anyone else. this is talking about the different administration of gifts. im sure my brothers and sisters can correct me if i am wrong. Peace 🙂
 
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