How possibly they knew and they didn't know at the same time?

[Gorgias]

STT:

We all know the story of Adam and Eve. I however found a contradiction in story as following: They knew that eating it is wrong/evil (how they could sin if they didn’t know good and evil?) yet they didn’t know good and evil because they haven’t eaten the fruit.

Read Gen 3. The very story of the Fall already tells you that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil until after they sinned. Gen 3:22

Be careful here, though. The word used in Genesis 3:22 is γινώσκειν. Yes, it means “to know”… but, properly speaking, it means “to know through experience” (and not “to know through perception/intellection”, which would be the Greek word ‘oida’ (or ᾔδεισαν, “they knew (by perceiving)”).

So, they knew good and evil intellectually, but didn’t know good and evil experientially until they experienced it personally.

In other words, they ᾔδεισαν good and evil, but didn’t ἔγνωσαν good and evil till they experienced it.

 

[STT]

Hi!

No, what I am saying is that regardless of their foreknowledge on regards to what sin is, they committed sin–the absence of knowledge did not remove the culpability.

Their transgression was taking the creatures word rather than the Creator’s.

Say you and I are friends; I am visiting you and you warn me that the bathroom sink is broken–I’m not a plumber, but, as many, I dabble into the arts (‘I can do it!’); so after using the toilet, instead of employing the sanitizing foam dispenser, I insist that I can use the sink (to my untrained eyes, it seems perfectly ok); water floods–by the time I notice the problem and shut off the faucet the wall and floor in your bathroom are drenched.

Can my ignorance of the problem with the sink undo the drenching of the wall and floor?

Now take that to the spiritual level.

Can Adam’s and Eve’s lack of knowledge about sin undo the fact that their transgression was sin?

Maran atha!

Angel

I am afraid that your example does not resolve the problem since I am not all knowing. I wouldn’t allow you to use the sink if I knew what would happen.

 

[STT]

Its not a problem because we’re talking about two different kinds of knowledge. One is intellectual knowledge; they were told the act was sinful. The other was experiential knowledge; they learned for themselves, by personal experience, that the act was sinful. Otherwise, as stated, you have a problem of time; the knowledge of good and evil was obtained only after they committed the act.

Well, we know that God said that they are like us after they eat the fruit. Doesn’t that mean that God and other also experienced sin if what you said is true?

 

[STT]

I prefer a different take on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve were created as rational beings. They understood the moral law. They were not ignorant of it. In that sense they knew what was good and what was evil. But they had never experienced evil. Never made a morally evil choice. They never knew the shame that comes with that. The Knowledge they gained wasn’t rational knowledge of the moral law, it was an intimacy with evil they hadn’t known before. They had consciences prior to eating.

Well, we know that God said that they are like us after they eat the fruit. Doesn’t that mean that God and other also experienced evil if what you said is true?

 

[STT]

I’m not seeing the contradiction. They knew that eating it was wrong (since God had told them not to eat from that tree), but they hadn’t yet had a personal experience of the effects of sin.

No contradiction there.

Well, we know that God said that they are like us after they eat the fruit. Doesn’t that mean that God and other also experienced sin if what you said is true?

 

[Wesrock]

It is to God from which all reference to good and evil must be made. Adam and Eve usurped that authority, rejecting God’s moral authority regarding good and evil and deciding to (unjustly) take that authority for themselves. It is in that way that they “became like God.” It’s not that they didn’t have consciences, but engaged in their own relativism about what is right or wrong. They were playing God.

Sorry if I’m repeating myself. I’m rush-posting from my phone

 

[Gorgias]

Well, we know that God said that they are like us after they eat the fruit. Doesn’t that mean that God and other also experienced sin if what you said is true?

God is outside time. He “knows” all things – He’s omniscience. He doesn’t “experience” things temporally, as humans do. So, at the “time” of the Fall of Man, God “had already” experienced this conversation we’re having today.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

I do not know if you are truly missing the point or simply avoiding it.

You don’t have to be all knowing to know when your sink is not working properly; a pool of water all over the floor after each time that you use the sink will demonstrate the sink’s status; even if a person is a complete dote (feebleminded), after three or four experiences he/she would put together the logic: turn the bathroom’s sink’s water faucet on and water will pool on the floor by the sink; do it ten or twenty times more and the same experience would cause that person to conclude that there’s something wrong with the sink–yes, even if they lack the intelligence or curiosity to follow the event: sink-faucet-water… something is not right, something must be broke (yeah, not broken, remember he/she is a dote!); so I would be warned not to use the sink in the bathroom.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think you are a little confused:

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” (Genesis 2)

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” (Genesis 3)

Then we have Satan:

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3)

Finally, you continue to dispute the event. It is not about the fruit or the knowledge or the lack of knowledge; it is about DISOBEDIENCE.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Again, Knowledge is not sin.

We know that to become inebriated is to sin because we are giving up control of our faculties… I know that there are several liquor stores around where I live–I am not sinning because I have knowledge of these sources… but if I drink in excess, then I will be in sin.

I do not know how you reason things out… but it is a flawed reasoning.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[eddietoo]

ignorance can mitigate personal culpability for an act. it does not change the nature of an act from a sinful act to a non-sinful act.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

STT:

We all know the story of Adam and Eve. I however found a contradiction in story as following: They knew that eating it is wrong/evil (how they could sin if they didn’t know good and evil?) yet they didn’t know good and evil because they haven’t eaten the fruit.

Read Gen 3. The very story of the Fall already tells you that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil until after they sinned. Gen 3:22

Be careful here, though. The word used in Genesis 3:22 is γινώσκειν. Yes, it means “to know”… but, properly speaking, it means “to know through experience” (and not “to know through perception/intellection”, which would be the Greek word ‘oida’ (or ᾔδεισαν, “they knew (by perceiving)”).

So, they knew good and evil intellectually, but didn’t know good and evil experientially until they experienced it personally.

In other words, they ᾔδεισαν good and evil, but didn’t ἔγνωσαν good and evil till they experienced it.

Yes, and it’s significant for us to know that all humankind has that knowledge now; Adam, Eve, and their descendants would know (experience) good and evil on a continuous basis since the Fall.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

Its not a problem because we’re talking about two different kinds of knowledge. One is intellectual knowledge; they were told the act was sinful. The other was experiential knowledge; they learned for themselves, by personal experience, that the act was sinful. Otherwise, as stated, you have a problem of time; the knowledge of good and evil was obtained only after they committed the act.

Well, we know that God said that they are like us after they eat the fruit. Doesn’t that mean that God and other also experienced sin if what you said is true?

No, it means God is omniscient.