How Practical is it for Women to be Submissive to Their Husbands in Modern Society

[Xantippe]

Godly marriage is not the wife obeys her husband over every disagreement. I want to go to this movie, he wants that one so I obey - I want to get the kids Legos for Christmas, he wants to buy them Erector Sets so I obey. No, it is working together for the good of each other and the family so that when something serious comes along and a serious decision has to be made, I can trust his judgement. If something happens and I die, I know that he will continue to raise my children in the Faith.

Right.

There’s a Protestant lady (Sheila Wray Gregoire) who talks about this, that what we are going for is not just acquiescence to what we think are bad ideas but actual unity.

 

[Xantippe]

The example I gave the room wasn’t as clean as this one, because I find the bitterness and outrage that attends this subject frightening;

Maybe that reflects the fact that other women have different experiences than you do.

I came from the opposite direction. When my husband and I got married, I was coming out of a conservative Protestant background, and so I was theoretically on board with wifely obedience, but hadn’t really thought through it or really seen much of life. At the time, I had the tie-breaker view (which I got from C.S. Lewis) and the just-marry-a-good-guy view. However, the more I’ve thought about it and seen and heard, the more I realize that those were very naive views, and not at all suitable to me and my husband as individuals. I’ve mentioned why the just-marry-a-good-guy view is a problem (you don’t really know what you’re getting), but the tie-breaker view is problematic, too.

It blew my mind when one find day I first saw quotes from Casti Connubii (the 1930 marriage and birth control encyclical), and I realized that my old views weren’t even Catholic teaching. Along with a lot of traditional stuff about wifely submission, Casti Connubii says:

“27. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs.”

“28. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family.”

https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-...ents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html

Any Catholic conversation about wifely submission needs to recognize that that is also Catholic teaching on marriage.

I have found that I have been able to become a much nicer wife by softening my views of wifely submission. Back in the old days, whenever my husband and I disagreed, it was a Big Deal to me and disagreement stressed me out and often made me unpleasant, but I find that it’s easier to be calm, sweet and reasonable when I know that I get to say no. My wifely rule is “Be nice!” but not necessarily slavishly obedient. I also like the phrase (which is adapted from Ephesians 4), “Speak the truth in love.” We can always be just a bit kinder, even when we don’t agree.

 

[Lara]

Jail time. That’s the tough decision that the grandmother needed to make. The grandfather needed to be in jail while she ran the family business. The other way to go was find even a distant cousin and move the family and try to get the older kids working after school while you work all day, which she was probably doing anyhow.

When I ask women who’ve divorced their husbands if they had any inkling their husband was a jerk when they were dating him, the usual reply is they didn’t date long enough or they ignored the warning signs. But I suppose it is theoretically possible that no signs were given. Perhaps women need more help seeing the signs, or help acting on them.

He’s quick to anger, he’s into pornography, he’s unable to wait for a sexual relationship, he does drugs, he smokes, he tells small lies, he doesn’t want to account for his time and how he spent it, he speaks unnecessarily ill of others, he’s not a virgin and he doesn’t express the regret proper to his sins, he tells you that if he’s old and sick you have his permission to leave him (this happened to me), he’s not wise in his decision-making, he’s too close to his mother, following her every intrusive regulation, etc…

 

[CatholicRaven]

But marriage ISN’T a contract. It’s a covenant. The passage doesn’t say, “If your husband loves as you see fit, then submit.”

Husbands, love. Not just when she’s lovable, but as Christ loves. That’s a tall order! You can’t sit back and do nothing. You can’t ignore her (name removed by moderator)ut. Listen to her needs and wants, consider them, but don’t let her have her way just to avoid conflict. You must do what is necessary and best for her, even when (or especially when) it hurts or upsets her (hopefully temporarily). Tell her why, when possible. God has given you husbands a lot of responsibility because with His help, you can handle it. Don’t lay down and die, but sacrifice. We wives need you to be strong (but not hard or cold), our shelter in the storm, even when the storm is us!

Wives, submit. Which I think mostly means respect and letting him lead. Even when he doesn’t “deserve” it. Even if he’s not being as loving as you want. Let him know your thoughts and then trust him to take them into consideration.

But don’t expect to always get your way. Remember to submit. Because there is no “if” in there. Covenant, not contract.

Submission is a gift you give him out of love. And it is mostly about trusting. Trusting your husband, yes, but more so trusting in God. God gives your husband authority over the household. Trust Him to bring you through it.

Sometimes, a couple agrees that one of them should handle an area, such as finances, without much (name removed by moderator)ut from the other. In most cases, that’s fine! Submission doesn’t mean we need permission for every little decision, especially when one has more skill or talent in that area, but the spouse should still be “kept in the loop.”

And of course when submitting comes up, someone brings up abuse. So in that exception, we do not submit because we are not to submit to sin. And separation may be necessary. But still, respect and love.

Because someone else’s bad behavior is not an excuse for me to sin or to break my vows.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Xantippe]

Jail time. That’s the tough decision that the grandmother needed to make. The grandfather needed to be in jail while she ran the family business. The other way to go was find even a distant cousin and move the family and try to get the older kids working after school while you work all day, which she was probably doing anyhow.

When I ask women who’ve divorced their husbands if they had any inkling their husband was a jerk when they were dating him, the usual reply is they didn’t date long enough or they ignored the warning signs. But I suppose it is theoretically possible that no signs were given. Perhaps women need more help seeing the signs, or help acting on them.

He’s quick to anger, he’s into pornography, he’s unable to wait for a sexual relationship, he does drugs, he smokes, he tells small lies, he doesn’t want to account for his time and how he spent it, he speaks unnecessarily ill of others, he’s not a virgin and he doesn’t express the regret proper to his sins, he tells you that if he’s old and sick you have his permission to leave him (this happened to me), he’s not wise in his decision-making, he’s too close to his mother, following her every intrusive regulation, etc…

–I don’t know if the grandma knew about the molestation in the 1950s. She tried to leave and she asked her father for help at the time, telling him that her husband was “mean” to the children, but her dad turned her away, which he later regretted very much once the molestation came out 30 years later. So, she tried to get out, but she couldn’t find anybody willing to help her get out.
–Back in the 1950s, nobody was going to prison just for being “mean” to their kids, and it was a lot easier to get away with child molestation.
–It was a large family of children. Who is going to take in a divorced mom of a large family? How many women can support a large family on their own? Also, we’re talking pre-food stamp days.
–She couldn’t have run the business on her own. I don’t know if she ever had a job post-kids.
–I don’t know the exact chronology, but I’m pretty sure that the kids weren’t all school aged at that point.

What you describe might be doable today (with a lot of outside help), but it wasn’t doable 60 years ago for a woman with a large family. Also, it’s not what one thinks of as “submissive” behavior.

Even with perfectly good guys, courtship behavior is unlikely to be long-term husband behavior.

 

[Xantippe]

And of course when submitting comes up, someone brings up abuse. So in that exception, we do not submit because we are not to submit to sin. And separation may be necessary. But still, respect and love.

How can you tell where abuse begins? I think it’s a lot harder than you think.

From Complementarian to Captain Janeway | Explorations in Egalitarianism

"It didn’t happen overnight. It didn’t happen over a year, or even five years. However, at one point, I woke up and realized I was working every day to be an entirely different person that who I was, all in the name of “letting him lead.” I was censoring and analyzing every word that came out of my mouth. I was making sure I didn’t “emasculate” him.

"Now, one could say, “You were taking this whole complementarian teaching waaaaaaay too far. Headship and submission doesn’t mean that! You’re supposed to have your own thoughts, your own life, and your own red delicious apples!” That’s easy to say, but very hard to quantify. No one tells you where submission should stop. No one says, “The line is drawn here! This far—no further!”

 

[ChunkMonk]

Man, everybody else seems to have such dramatic relationships.

After having too much drama with several men, I just wanted somebody to eat donuts with at 11 pm and tell jokes. Preferably someone with his own steady employment to help pay for the donuts.

I thought you said you didn’t care to criticize other people’s way of doing it?

 

[Lea101]

It’s a lot different in my country jobs are not easy to find even with a degree. I really would not bother with my studies now if I know I’m going to be a sahm in the future. It’s way too expensive and it requires way too much work to be stressing over something I won’t use

 

[Xantippe]

I thought you said you didn’t care to criticize other people’s way of doing it?

It is actually worth pointing out that a lot of self-described heavy submission couples seem to fight just as much as normal couples, if not more–it doesn’t seem to reduce the overall level of conflict.

I have noticed this a lot among submission bloggers.

 

[Bon_Croix]

Are you a nurse?

B/C the majority of Americans and probably Catholics too have, have had, or will have a mental illness.

BTW, I know more than one nurse with a mental illness and atleast one doctor.
Mental illness is very broad in today’s society and reaches far beyond those who are diagnosed.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

It’s a lot different in my country jobs are not easy to find even with a degree. I really would not bother with my studies now if I know I’m going to be a sahm in the future. It’s way too expensive and it requires way too much work to be stressing over something I won’t use

I’m not sure about the quality of education in your country for K12—I used one of the most rigorous High School curriculums there is.

That said, having a degree makes me a much more knowledgeable mother with a much deeper understanding of many subjects.

For instance, my knowledge of ethics and philosophy are really important and help me make better decisions as a parent. I have no doubt that my advanced mathematics classes will make me better able to ensure my children are able to have a better chance with mathematical concepts. In college, I not only learned more about personal budgeting, I was able to take finance classes and know how global markets work. In fact, when looking at mortgage loans and managing retirement and other major financial decisions I’m much more well versed than my husband who took a course in engineering. Which makes us a great couple. Furthermore, I learned many leadership skills and most importantly truly critical research skills and identification of truly valid sources. This can come into play when “everyone” says that you don’t potty train a NT child until 3 or you are trying to figure out how to stay on top of nutrition when misinformation is everywhere.

Honestly, even if homeschooling isn’t on your radar, being a better-educated person should be. I really do think that parents who don’t have post-secondary education REALLY struggle more…for many reasons.

One thing to consider is that we are now a global society with global options both for work and for education. Work wise, many companies LOVE educated bi-lingual people. There was an education outfit from China paying $30-40 USD per hour for both US degree holders & Chinese (Mandarin) bilingual who can coach highschoolers You might want to look at US private (not for profit) Collages. They may be more affordable.

At the very least you should try to gain a bachelor’s degree worth of knowledge, even if you do it for free though things like Kahn Academy or Courseara. You are not doing yourself any favors being a SAHM with only a highschool education.

 

[Lea101]

Wives and literally everyone else are also told to love one another like Christ has loved us. It’s not some special difficult request that only the husbands have.

Well at least you are consistent since the Bible said submit in everything. I personally would rather scoop out my own eyeballs and eat them

 

[Lea101]

The quality of education here is supposedly one of the best. That means that it’s also extremely competitive.

Also as someone who can barely afford her lunch, going to school just for the experience and education (without making money out of it) is way too much of a luxury.

Not going to university does not mean we are left with a high school education, most people who didn’t get a degree end up having A levels or a diploma in whatever field they want. Although honestly, that would not be enough to support a family, assuming if you’re a single mom.

Colleges in the US are not worth it at all. Much more expensive and no way in hell am I going to live in that political climate!

 

[Bon_Croix]

I think its important to distinguish b/w “protector” and “provider” to better understand the answers given.

I believe both spouses to be providers.

Now, how do gay marriage advocates interpret this Bible verse? Is this more powder for the cannon against the argument for gay marriage?

 

[Xantippe]

Are you a nurse?

B/C the majority of Americans and probably Catholics too have, have had, or will have a mental illness.

BTW, I know more than one nurse with a mental illness and atleast one doctor.

Mental illness is very broad in today’s society and reaches far beyond those who are diagnosed.

Nah. I just am very personally interested in neurological difference and how it complicates interpersonal relationships.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

How is it critical? I have friends who love to have what they call “spark” in their relationships.

Fine for them.
Would tire me out.

 

[Xantippe]

The quality of education here is supposedly one of the best. That means that it’s also extremely competitive.

Also as someone who can barely afford her lunch, going to school just for the experience and education (without making money out of it) is way too much of a luxury.

Not going to university does not mean we are left with a high school education, most people who didn’t get a degree end up having A levels or a diploma in whatever field they want. Although honestly, that would not be enough to support a family, assuming if you’re a single mom.

Colleges in the US are not worth it at all. Much more expensive and no way in hell am I going to live in that political climate!

An interesting problem of current American life is that non-college women now have a hard time getting married. Married women tend to be educated people, whereas non-educated mothers tend to be not married (if you follow me).

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Now, how do gay marriage advocates interpret this Bible verse? Is this more powder for the cannon against the argument for gay marriage?

How would it be against the argument for gay marriage. What I see in same sex rcouples is more egalitarian and decisions are made mutually. It would probably fit the idea of mutual submission over one person who has the final say. Perhaps there are some couples that approach decisions this way, idk.

I imagine that how same sex couples approach this needs to be more deliberate because they can’t automatically rely on gender roles. I think opposite sex couples automatically rely on gender roles until an imbalance is noted, one doing more of the heavy lifting than the other.

For example, when I read or hear about one half of a opposite sex couple complaining that not only do they work outside the home but they also are doing most of the work at home too. It seems to take both parties awhile to really come to terms that the imbalance is not okay. With same sex couples the imbalance is recognized sooner but getting to the solution seems as challenging as with opposite sex couples.

 

[CatholicRaven]

For the person being abused, yes, it’s hard. It is difficult to tell from the inside because it is a gradual overstepping and loss of boundaries and there is a lot of gaslighting type stuff going on. Someone with a healthy sense of self-image and self worth isn’t going to have that problem right off the bat. That is why abuse usually starts with a manipulation of the way the person thinks of themselves and a degradation of trust in their own thoughts and feelings. That’s how self-confident, capable people can become victims too.
Yes, abuse is sometimes excused in the name of submission to authority. But abuse is overstepping real authority and claiming authority that one does not have. So my point was that blaming “wifely submission” for abuse is a misunderstanding of both.
Is it easy to know when and how to submit? Not always. But what worth doing is easy? What part of marriage doesn’t take effort and working together?
It’s just frustrating that the exception is often used to attempt to negate the rule. “I don’t want to be abused by illegitimate authority, so I won’t submit even to legitimate authority” doesn’t solve anything. It just means you try to be your own authority, often above God. And it comes with its own host of problems.
Maybe we need to say what submission is not. Submission isn’t about being a doormat or never disagreeing or walking on eggshells or having no conflicts. It’s not keeping silent when you disagree or tolerating contempt or participating in sin or enabling inappropriate behavior. It should not be fearful or unwilling or forced or coerced.
It’s still being free to be heard and to have a say in decisions. There’s a balance, like most ideals.
The “how” is really the hard part, but couples generally have to navigate the details themselves, with prayer and sometimes with appropriate counsel. Because I think we can probably agree that there is no “one size fits all” way of married life.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, abuse is sometimes excused in the name of submission to authority. But abuse is overstepping real authority and claiming authority that one does not have. So my point was that blaming “wifely submission” for abuse is a misunderstanding of both.

I agree with a lot of your post, but yes, people do have ideas of wifely submission that are not well-grounded in actual Catholic teaching.

The thing about human authority is that no matter how valid it is, it’s always limited. It is important to have a sense of what the limits of each kind of human authority are. That’s something that I really don’t get from hard core wifely submission enthusiasts, even though it’s right there in black and white in Casti Connubii (1930). A lot of times, you’ll hear people make the concession that the wife does not have to commit sins that her husband tells her to commit, but if you look at Casti Connubii, the conditions are a lot broader. She’s not obligated to obey in instances “not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife” and also “if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family.” Those are very broad parameters.

I know a Protestant couple where the husband has insisted that the wife homeschool a seriously disabled child. She has done so for a number of years, but the last 2-3 years, she has been wanting to quit and put the child in school, but her husband won’t allow it–he thinks public school is evil, but is unwilling to pay for private school. That’s the reality of being a SAHM, that a whole lot of submitting goes on pretty much automatically. But it is kind crazy, to think that a) this woman is smart enough to homeschool the kid year after year but b) not smart enough to have worthwhile opinions concerning whether homeschooling is the best approach for the child. I have no idea how you deal with this situation of a husband who is so hard-headed that he won’t budge for literally years, even though the family could easily afford a good private school. I believe strongly that couples should both agree for major decisions like choice of children’s schooling, but at the same time, I also feel strongly that the person who is doing the work ought to have more say. When you have a situation like this where the husband is insisting year after year on having things his way, even though his wife believes it isn’t the best for their child, it takes a serious toll on the marital relationship. I know that I would not tolerate it from my husband if he were refusing schooling or medical care to our children, but I suppose that would be me being “unsubmissive” from some people’s point of view. But I could not stand by and let my husband hurt our children.