How Quickly Should We Overturn Roe?

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Abortion is indeed a tough issue because it involves secular law, religious law, and strong human emotion on all sides. I respect your position even though my own faith departs somewhat, albeit not entirely, from it.
 
Abortion is indeed a tough issue because it involves secular law, religious law, and strong human emotion on all sides. I respect your position even though my own faith departs somewhat, albeit not entirely, from it.
And I respect yours. I do have a question, though. I thought I read somewhere that Judaism (I think Reform) holds that for 40 days after conception, all that exists is water. Any truth to that?
 
The only difference is the potential of the zygote eventually to be detached and live independently, in the future.
I’m pretty sure a fetus has a beating heart by three weeks. Abortion stops that beating heart.
 
Agree wholeheartedly, MBoy, and in the case of rape or incest, I think, probably, the majority of us on the pro-life side of the fence would not deny the use of RU486 (or whatever the “morning after” pill is). in that situation. I think we must allow a woman the freedom to exercise her God-given free will in such a situation.
Then you are not pro-life. The woman would still be killing a human being, stopping a beating heart, and, according to Catholic beliefs, killing a being with an immortal soul. One cannot have his cake and eat it, too. Rape and incest, according to Catholic beliefs, are Crosses the woman must bear for the good of the child and its immortal soul.

No one can claim to be pro-life and support killing a fetus in any circumstances.

I was baptized RC, with a Jewish mother and RC father. I do not consider myself pro-life even though I would never have an abortion under any circumstances, and even though I find abortion heartbreaking. I do not consider myself pro-life because I believe the Constitution of the US supports abortion and because it certainly supports freedom of religion. I would not take away a Jewish woman’s right to abortion, if one were needed. She has the right to live under the tenets of her religion. We do not really know when the soul is acquired; we do not live in a theocracy, but in a democracy where there is separation of church and state.
 
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Again, a source of debate as to the exercise of free will. However, speaking for myself on this side of the pro-life fence, it isn’t so much the right of the woman to choice, as it is the right of a developing human being, in its most helpless and dependent state, to its own life. I think for most of us, it is not so much a question of civil law, but “thou shalt not kill.” To me, divine trumps civil.
I think it would be great if all people lived by “thou shall not kill,” but abortion is a secular issue in the US and always will be. The Constitution is a secular document. We have to remember that.
 
Yeah, the longer you go from ground zero, the harder it is to justify legal abortions. There’s never a clear-cut watershed line, like a light being turned on.
 
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If you want to force a woman to have a baby, then you need to provide well for both the woman and the baby. If you want to allow the woman the liberty to control what happens in her body, then you have to allow her the free will to make her own decisions.
Force a woman to not kill her baby?

Really???
 
A baby is a little person that says “wah wahhh,” has 10 fingers and toes and a brain with which to feel.

A fertilized egg cell, while important to Catholics, is not a baby.
 
A fertilized egg cell, while important to Catholics, is not a baby.
I’m sure that is your opinion.

But its an opinion based upon your adherence to Secular Humanism or other antilife liberal religious tradition.

Many people, not just Catholics, are in favor of life, but its not due to religion.
 
No, it really isn’t a matter of opinion. I’ve seen babies, and I can assure you, they definitely have 10 fingers and brains with which to feel. They say “wah wahhhh” a lot and poop their diapers.

Now, if you want to argue that a fertilized egg has a soul, and that killing a fertilized egg is an act against God, okay, make that argument. But an egg is not a baby.
 
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You have mentioned several times that there is no single “flicking-a-light-switch” moment as a person develops. I agree with you there. The only such moment where there is a huge definitive break between what was there before and what is there after is that which occurs at the very beginning: conception. Prior to that moment, there is just sperm and egg. After that moment, there is a unique living organism.

After conception, the changes and development—while significant—take place along a continuum. There is no other moment you can point your finger to as indicating that what is there now was not there just a second before. No other moment besides the moment of conception.

This is why legal abortion makes no logical sense, quite apart from religious considerations. We put the power in the hands of legislators and judges to draw arbitrary lines in the sand about when human life begins. Why that doesn’t make more people extremely uncomfortable is something I have a difficult time understanding. The only sensible place to draw the line is at conception.
 
You don’t need a specific moment. There is a span of time when there very clearly is no nervous system capable of experiencing anything-- consciousness, or pain.

Once the nervous system begins to form, then it’s tricky to decide when the fetus is “conscious enough.” So I’m with you there. But it’s clear that in the earliest stages, there’s no sentience-- just cells growing along a pattern defined by the DNA, with the potential to one day develop a nervous system, and consciousness.
 
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So far as we are concerned, a thing is a collection of its properties: mass, form, light, function, etc. When you start talking about the underlying essence of things, you are begging the question-- if there IS something essentially human beyond the properties we can observe, then the Christian view is already correct, and abortion may be highly immoral.

However, if someone doesn’t already believe in that essential quality, but insists that a thing is a collection of its properties, then how are you to demonstrate your view? Surely, not by pointing to any combination of those properties.

And this is what I said before-- demanding legislative actions beyond observable properties, when the immaterial properties are sourced in a religious tradition, violates the separation of Church and State.
You argue that I “believe” in an essential quality of a thing that is greater than the sum of its parts, state that since this merely a “belief” that this qualifies it as a religion, and that to legislate upon that belief is to violate the separation of Church and State. Conversely, I ask if your belief that a thing is only the sum of its properties is not, in itself, also a religion, and that to legislate upon it likewise violates the Establishment Clause? Please cf. @Augustinian’s argument in post #297.

In truth, my position is not a “belief”. It is a restatement of the objective findings of biology combined the well-established principles of ontological philosophy – a secular philosophy. I have taken great pains to divorce my arguments from premises founded in religion.
 
When the zygote, which has distinct DNA from the rest of the tissue in the mother’s body, is attached to the mother and is not independently viable because it lacks a heart, a brain, and all the things which a complete organism has, then we have a very similar condition. Even though it has distinct DNA, it is part of the mother’s complete functioning organism, until such a time as it has developed sufficiently that it can be safely separated from her. You think of it as a baby, growing on its own in a kind of safe shelter; but it is not that-- the role of the mother’s body in bringing a zygote to fruition as a new human being is absolute.
The bolded is biologically incorrect. Yes, the child is dependent upon its mother from zygote to birth, but it is a distinct human organism. Indeed, even were a woman to carry to term a clone of herself, the clone would be a distinct human organism; the DNA does not matter here in the least. Yes, things like chimeras exist where one human can be composed of tissues from one or more other humans. However, the cells that comprise those chimeric tissues are no longer capable of independently executing a body plan; they are already differentiated. This is related to the discussion of totipotency, pluripotency, etc. The zygote will not go on to form other tissues in its mother’s body. Yes, the fetus might die and be “absorbed” by the mother’s body, but those cells are eventually recycled through the process of apoptosis (programmed cell death), and only the building blocks of the cells themselves will be reincorporated into the mother’s tissues (proteins and the like), rather than the cells themselves. Put another way, the mother’s body effectively digests the fetus’ tissues.

You discuss a concept that I don’t recognize, one of a “complete” organism. I’m not sure what this means. If someone were to undergo an amputation, are they now an “incomplete” organism? If someone undergoes an allograft transplant (ie. from another person), are they one organism, or two? The biological fact of the matter is that a zygote, an embryo, a fetus is a complete, discrete, fully-functioning organism, no less so because it is not fully developed. It is capable of performing all essential functions of life: homeostasis, organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, responding to stimuli, and reproduction (ie. mitosis, not sexual reproduction). The most important one in our conversation here is organization. While all cells in a body share the same complete DNA, not all cells are capable of organizing a complete human body. This is due to a biological process called differentiation, and it is mediated by the process of gene expression.

 
Briefly, an erythrocyte (red blood cell) is not the same as an hepatocyte (liver cell), nor an astrocyte (one kind of neural cell). Each of these are derived through a branching process that looks like a tree, with the trunk of that tree being the totipotent zygote. Early embryonic development is marked by the zygote growing into the blastocoel (aka blastocyst, blastula, among others). The blastocoel is a spherical bundle of cells comprised of cells in three different locations that each give rise to their own germ cell lines. For example, the endoderm (cells inside of the blastocoel) develop into the cells of the gastrointestinal system, including the hepatocytes. Cells of the nervous system, including the astrocyte, are developed from the ectoderm (cells on the outside surface of the blastocoel). Blood cells, including the erythrocytes, are derived from the mesoderm, the middle layer between the endo- and ectoderms.

The main thrust of the above is that a zygote has the capacity to form all of these different kinds of cells, whereas both the adult fully-differentiated cells as well as the intermediary cells do not. Again, this is not a matter of the embryo’s potential to become these things; it is a matter of what it is from the moment of conception. Again, the zygote mets the definition of a discrete human organism and life from conception.
 
You argue that I “believe” in an essential quality of a thing that is greater than the sum of its parts, state that since this merely a “belief” that this qualifies it as a religion, and that to legislate upon that belief is to violate the separation of Church and State. Conversely, I ask if your belief that a thing is only the sum of its properties is not, in itself, also a religion, and that to legislate upon it likewise violates the Establishment Clause? Please cf. @Augustinian’s argument in post #297.
I don’t recall saying anything about the sum of parts. I believe (and correct me if I’m wrong) that I talked about the sum of observable properties: molecular structure of proteins, composition of cells, and so on. Why does a zygote or early embryo have sufficient value or import to be protected by law? Either what is observable has objective or intrinsic value, or it has some unseen value as well.

One of the criticisms of atheism by Catholics is that without God to establish His will, there is no objective morality. But I think it would be safe to go beyond that: there’s no objective way to establish value, behavioral or otherwise.

You may say, “Well, a zygote is human. It’s a little human. There’s intrinsic value in that.” But that’s not actually true: to paraphrase a popular saying: “Value is in the eye of the evaluator.” To some would-be mothers, there’s not only little value, but a clear negative value, in this early-stage pregnancy. She does not value this little bundle of human cells enough to suffer the consequences of carrying and possibly raising it.

So you have to say: “It doesn’t matter. My system of evaluation is the right one. It is, in fact, so right that we should not allow someone else to act contrary to it.”

From the secular perspective, this is kind of like you playing God. Who are you to tell them what they should or shouldn’t value? Why should they adopt your values rather than vice versa? What makes your opinion matter, and theirs irrelevant?

Your opinion is very clear, I think: you consider a zygote a human, and you believe that all humans have a right to protection, and that a zygote should therefore fall under the umbrella of legislation. I think this is a perfectly fair philosophical position, and I completely understand why it is important to you. However, the secular position is equally clear: a zygote has no memories or experiences, and so nothing tangible is lost in an early abortion-- and they are not compelled enough by the intangible values (potential to arrive at a certain state of development in the future, for example) to extend legal protection.

However, the right to self-determination is a value which almost ALL citizens in the US embrace. Therefore, where one value, namely the right to self-determination, is so uniformly accepted across the entire population, and another value, namely the “intrinsic” value of humanity even when it’s pre-sentient, is much less accepted, it should be obvious that the right to self-determination (i.e. a potential mother’s right to control her bodily functions) takes precedent.
 
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One hour after a rape???
Yes, one hour after rape, if fertilization has occurred, the woman would be killing an embryo that possibly had an immortal soul. That is Catholic teaching. It allows for no “wiggle room.” I’m not judgmental; I don’t even believe the US Constitution supports overturning Roe v. Wade, but NO abortion, in even in cases of rape or incest, IS Church teaching. A rape victim may ONLY have contraception if testing shows NO conception has taken place. A woman may NOT rid herself of a conceived child. So please cease calling ME judgmental.

I am NOT judgmental. It IS Church teaching and part of being pro-life.:

Finally, health care providers must provide treatment to prevent the possible contraction of venereal disease and pregnancy. The Directives state, "A woman who has been raped may defend herself against a conception resulting from sexual assault. If, after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred already, she may be treated with medication that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization. It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum."(no. 36)

For this reason, The Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Facilities state, “Abortion, that is the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability, is never permitted nor is the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus. Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is an abortion, which, in its moral context, includes the interval between conception and implantation of the embryo” (no. 12). Therefore, abortifacients those drugs which would cause the expulsion of a conceived ovum — are morally wrong.

 
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