How Relevant Is Our Lady Of Fatima Today ?

[Volodymyr_988]

Yes and no doubt those martyrs were the holy ones. And what kind of character did those have who were left untouched?

This is akin to blaming the survivors of Nazism. So all the surviving bishops and priests of Western Europe were Nazi Collaborators?

That’s what many Orthodox say about Archbishop Stepinac.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

If you had any charity, you would not put words into my mouth. I don’t know why I’m even bothering to respond to this but let me say it one last time. I have NEVER said that anyone was REQUIRED under pain of sin or damnation to believe in the Fatima events. I have only argued the question “why not?”

Did you read my posts?

I also believe she came.

I don’t believe the Conspiracy Theories. I don’t believe the Vatican is lying. I don’t believe that Sr. Lucia was silenced, etc…

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Well, that is not entirely truthful. It does mean something. At the very least it means that the Orthodox are divided on the matter. It also means that some Orthodox hierarchs not only recognize the spiritual authority of fatima and of JPII but also cooperated with the fulfillment of the demands of Our Lady. No, it is not the same as the pope speaking. But the Orthodox couldnt speak with the authority of the pope even if they wanted to. None have the competence to speak with such authority because there is only one pope, from whom they have cut themselves off for nearly a thousand years.

No this doesnt mean nothing. It is just that the Orthodox are hard pressed to mean something even if they try.

No, it means nothing.

The Orthodox credit Mark of Ephesus for saving Orthodoxy after the Council of Lyons. He was the only one who rejected the Council. In Orthodox Theology it doesn’t matter if all the bishops were to sign on to a council or not. If the whole “Church” (Laity?) doesn’t accept it then it wasn’t and Ecumenical Council.

 

[jj2011]

If the whole “Church” (Laity?) doesn’t accept it then it wasn’t and Ecumenical Council.

If that principal were taken literally, not even Nicea would be ecumenical, since there were bishops who refused to sign its decrees.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

No it is not fear mongering. It is a fact that the MP was very close to the KGB if not KGB himself. And there has never been a renunciation of this evil past. Also, it is quite clear that the present MP and Putin are very close and do each others bidding. The MP give Putin moral legitimacy and Putin oppresses the Catholics for the MP. It is all very tidy and wicked.

And, there is no mistaking that Putin is pressing for economic and political domination in the slavic sphere just as the MP is pressing his false authority over the same region.

The spat over Estonia and the tension in Romania are just the tip of the iceburg.

While the East bedazzles the populace with incense and liturgics, in the sanctuary it is plotting its political maneuvers.

Your position that since Patriarch Alexeii and President Putin were KGB agents they must be evil is as silly as the fact that Our Holy Father was in the Hitler Youth so he must be evil. What people do in the past is meaningless if they convert. Remember a guy named Saul?

Putin is only trying to keep American hegemony at bay. America has been pushing right up against Russia since 1991. Remember we sided with the Muslims in Serbia. And it seems we are siding with the Muslims in Sudan with our inaction.

Lets not forget that in the West we used to bedazzle our populace with incense, liturgics and processions while plotting political maneuvers as well.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

If that principal were taken literally, not even Nicea would be ecumenical, since there were bishops who refused to sign its decrees.

The Orthodox would say that the Laity did accept the decrees of Nicaea. But they did not accept Lyons.

There are further implications for today though (I’m thinking about contraception and abortion.)

That’s why I’m not Orthodox.:tiphat: :ehh:

 

[XtusVictor]

This is akin to blaming the survivors of Nazism. So all the surviving bishops and priests of Western Europe were Nazi Collaborators?

That’s what many Orthodox say about Archbishop Stepinac.

Now this argument might have some traction except for a couple of “problems.”

*The Nazis ruled for about 10 years. Their ability t penetrate the Church in that time was almost nil. The Soviets fuled for 70 years and did in fact control the seminaries and other critical institutions.

*Catholicism is an international, not a national church and is not so susceptible to infiltration. Orthodoxy is notoriously nationalistic and enmeshed in politics.

*Catholicism is above the state. Orthodoxy is an agent of the state.

*The evidence of Pius XII’s opposition to the Nazis is abundant unless you ascribe to a really ridiculous conspiracy theory. The MP’s were in fact involved with the KGB.

 

[XtusVictor]

No, it means nothing.

The Orthodox credit Mark of Ephesus for saving Orthodoxy after the Council of Lyons. He was the only one who rejected the Council. In Orthodox Theology it doesn’t matter if all the bishops were to sign on to a council or not. If the whole “Church” (Laity?) doesn’t accept it then it wasn’t and Ecumenical Council.

The Mark of Ephesus example is always trotted out. It is of course inherently flawed. It means that when the Orthodox Church is divided on something, everything that everyone does or says on the matter “means nothing?”

That is absolutely absurd. No, what it means is that the Orthodox Church is pretty useless as a source for teaching on matters after the first millenium. That is a fatal flaw.

 

[XtusVictor]

Your position that since Patriarch Alexeii and President Putin were KGB agents they must be evil is as silly as the fact that Our Holy Father was in the Hitler Youth so he must be evil. What people do in the past is meaningless if they convert. Remember a guy named Saul?

Putin is only trying to keep American hegemony at bay. America has been pushing right up against Russia since 1991. Remember we sided with the Muslims in Serbia. And it seems we are siding with the Muslims in Sudan with our inaction.

Lets not forget that in the West we used to bedazzle our populace with incense, liturgics and processions while plotting political maneuvers as well.

This is a very bad argument indeed. Ratzinger was a child who was forced and even then got out of the organization on his own. Alexii was an adult and had complete freedom even to be a martyr. The “conversion” argument makes no sense. Alexii was a hierarch and in the KGB. There is no way to make this story look good. He was a double agent for the Soviets and for the Church.

 

[XtusVictor]

Putin is only trying to keep American hegemony at bay. America has been pushing right up against Russia since 1991. Remember we sided with the Muslims in Serbia. And it seems we are siding with the Muslims in Sudan with our inaction.

Yes, the Orthodox in Serbia were the worst kinda of war criminals. Their crimes against humanity were supposed to garner American support? Outrageous!

Of course they did garner the support of the Russians and the Orthodox church who were also complicit in the atrocities.

 

[XtusVictor]

Lets not forget that in the West we used to bedazzle our populace with incense, liturgics and processions while plotting political maneuvers as well.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy have very different relations with nations and governments. Catholicism is above the state and is international in character. Orthodoxy has always served as the chaplain of the state blessing what ever the state does.

Catholicism is much more focused on the ideals of the gospels. Orthodoxy is much more cynical.

When B16 goes to the UN he will speak with a moral authority that no Eastern Patriarch has, because the Patriarchates are generally arms of their states.

And this is the problem, Orthodoxy really has very little moral authority in comparison to Catholicism.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

The Mark of Ephesus example is always trotted out. It is of course inherently flawed. It means that when the Orthodox Church is divided on something, everything that everyone does or says on the matter “means nothing?”

That is absolutely absurd. No, what it means is that the Orthodox Church is pretty useless as a source for teaching on matters after the first millenium. That is a fatal flaw.

I only disagree in degree. I won’t sink to polemics by calling the Orthodox Church useless.

This is also one of the reasons I am a faithful Catholic (even passing the Litmus test of having 4 children in 7 years of marriage.)

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Now this argument might have some traction except for a couple of “problems.”

*The Nazis ruled for about 10 years. Their ability t penetrate the Church in that time was almost nil. The Soviets fuled for 70 years and did in fact control the seminaries and other critical institutions.

How long have the homosexuals controlled our seminaries?

*Catholicism is an international, not a national church and is not so susceptible to infiltration. Orthodoxy is notoriously nationalistic and enmeshed in politics.

And what about the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Romanian Catholic Church, The Maronite Catholic Church etc…

*Catholicism is above the state. Orthodoxy is an agent of the state.

Tell that to Cardinal Rampolla.

*The evidence of Pius XII’s opposition to the Nazis is abundant unless you ascribe to a really ridiculous conspiracy theory. The MP’s were in fact involved with the KGB.

I fully support the immediate Canonization of the Servant of God Pius XII.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Yes, the Orthodox in Serbia were the worst kinda of war criminals. Their crimes against humanity were supposed to garner American support? Outrageous!

Of course they did garner the support of the Russians and the Orthodox church who were also complicit in the atrocities.

Ann Coulter would be proud of you.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Catholicism and Orthodoxy have very different relations with nations and governments. Catholicism is above the state and is international in character. Orthodoxy has always served as the chaplain of the state blessing what ever the state does.

Catholicism is much more focused on the ideals of the gospels. Orthodoxy is much more cynical.

When B16 goes to the UN he will speak with a moral authority that no Eastern Patriarch has, because the Patriarchates are generally arms of their states.

And this is the problem, Orthodoxy really has very little moral authority in comparison to Catholicism.

I don’t know what planet you’re living on, but the Pope has little moral authority in the eyes of the world any more… especially since the sex scandals.