How rife can one behaviour be in an organisation

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vstead

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Cardinal O’brien recently suggested that a discussion on priests marrying was needed. There are now allegations against him of inappropriate behaviour with younger priests. I imagine his own urges and the knowledge that the vast majority of priests would no doubt be fighting these urges also, had something to do with his suggestion of priests being allowed to marry. Without getting too technical, I am told that men have a physical need for love, and without it, can be affected in all sorts of ways. I want to believe that there is a connection between them being forced to abstain and the sexual crimes/behaviour that we’ve all witnessed, otherwise we just have to accept that there are a lot of bad priests in the catholic church. How rife can one behaviour be in one organisation?
 
Oh no, not another one of these threads…

Prepare to be stampeded.
 
dshix said:
Prepare to be stampeded.
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Indeed.

Cardinal O’Brien is making excuses, as are the priests who say that abstinence drove them to commit sinful acts. They can moan all they want about not being married, but the fact of the matter is that they knowingly chose a vocation where marriage was not common. They knowingly pursued a life dedicated to God. It is true, they may come to regret that decision, but it in no way excuses their behavior.

There is no connection between abstinence and sexual sin. In fact, if we were to run numbers, I’d place bets that the priesthood, per capita, has significantly fewer instances of sexual abuse than education professional, coaches, etc. Abstinence, and dedication to God, are far more likely to remove the urge to sin than to instill it.

The Church appears to have more of it because we are in the public eye, and people mistakenly believe that being able to point out sinful priests somehow negates the Truth of God’s On Holy and Apostolic Church. They focus on our sins and ignore their own because we are the beacon of hope, and when we falter that obviously means that it’s ok for them to keep living in sin; after all, if a priest can’t even manage it then how are we supposed to. It’s a blame game, and it’s retarded.

As one last note, there is absolutely no “need” for sexual relations. There is a strong desire, amplified by our over-sexed society, but there is no need. People throughout history, priest and layman alike, have lived lives completely devoid of sex, none of them died because of it. Our society would like to tell us there’s an absolute need because they think that would justify their deviant and amoral behavior. Happily, I can tell them that there is no need, only a drive, one that can be mastered, and dedicated to a true loving relationship with your spouse. In the instance of these priests, their spouse is their church, and their sexual energies should be (and can be) converted into dedication for the Lord.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Indeed.

Cardinal O’Brien is making excuses, as are the priests who say that abstinence drove them to commit sinful acts. They can b**** and moan all they want about not being married, but the fact of the matter is that they knowingly chose a vocation where marriage was not common. They knowingly pursued a life dedicated to God. It is true, they may come to regret that decision, but it in no way excuses their behavior.

There is no connection between abstinence and sexual sin. In fact, if we were to run numbers, I’d place bets that the priesthood, per capita, has significantly fewer instances of sexual abuse than education professional, coaches, etc. Abstinence, and dedication to God, are far more likely to remove the urge to sin than to instill it.

The Church appears to have more of it because we are in the public eye, and people mistakenly believe that being able to point out sinful priests somehow negates the Truth of God’s On Holy and Apostolic Church. They focus on our sins and ignore their own because we are the beacon of hope, and when we falter that obviously means that it’s ok for them to keep living in sin; after all, if a priest can’t even manage it then how are we supposed to. It’s a blame game, and it’s retarded.

As one last note, there is absolutely no “need” for sexual relations. There is a strong desire, amplified by our over-sexed society, but there is no need. People throughout history, priest and layman alike, have lived lives completely devoid of sex, none of them died because of it. Our society would like to tell us there’s an absolute need because they think that would justify their deviant and amoral behavior. Happily, I can tell them that there is no need, only a drive, one that can be mastered, and dedicated to a true loving relationship with your spouse. In the instance of these priests, their spouse is their church, and their sexual energies should be (and can be) converted into dedication for the Lord.
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truth :yup:
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Indeed.

Cardinal O’Brien is making excuses, as are the priests who say that abstinence drove them to commit sinful acts. They can moan all they want about not being married, but the fact of the matter is that they knowingly chose a vocation where marriage was not common. They knowingly pursued a life dedicated to God. It is true, they may come to regret that decision, but it in no way excuses their behavior.

There is no connection between abstinence and sexual sin. In fact, if we were to run numbers, I’d place bets that the priesthood, per capita, has significantly fewer instances of sexual abuse than education professional, coaches, etc. Abstinence, and dedication to God, are far more likely to remove the urge to sin than to instill it.

The Church appears to have more of it because we are in the public eye, and people mistakenly believe that being able to point out sinful priests somehow negates the Truth of God’s On Holy and Apostolic Church. They focus on our sins and ignore their own because we are the beacon of hope, and when we falter that obviously means that it’s ok for them to keep living in sin; after all, if a priest can’t even manage it then how are we supposed to. It’s a blame game, and it’s retarded.

As one last note, there is absolutely no “need” for sexual relations. There is a strong desire, amplified by our over-sexed society, but there is no need. People throughout history, priest and layman alike, have lived lives completely devoid of sex, none of them died because of it. Our society would like to tell us there’s an absolute need because they think that would justify their deviant and amoral behavior. Happily, I can tell them that there is no need, only a drive, one that can be mastered, and dedicated to a true loving relationship with your spouse. In the instance of these priests, their spouse is their church, and their sexual energies should be (and can be) converted into dedication for the Lord.
Click to expand...
I agree with you entirely. Then I wonder, if it’s a drive that can be mastered, why hundreds and hundreds of catholic priests can’t master it. We all know its in every walk of life. We know that no-one with sense believes that it negates the truth of Gods word. We know other religions suffer too but I’m just interested to know why its so prevalent in mine. Also, when you say its as bad in other circles like coaches teachers etc, I have to accept it happens there but I see a major difference between laymen behaving like this and the clergy.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Indeed.

Cardinal O’Brien is making excuses, as are the priests who say that abstinence drove them to commit sinful acts. They can moan all they want about not being married, but the fact of the matter is that they knowingly chose a vocation where marriage was not common. They knowingly pursued a life dedicated to God. It is true, they may come to regret that decision, but it in no way excuses their behavior.

There is no connection between abstinence and sexual sin. In fact, if we were to run numbers, I’d place bets that the priesthood, per capita, has significantly fewer instances of sexual abuse than education professional, coaches, etc. Abstinence, and dedication to God, are far more likely to remove the urge to sin than to instill it.

The Church appears to have more of it because we are in the public eye, and people mistakenly believe that being able to point out sinful priests somehow negates the Truth of God’s On Holy and Apostolic Church. They focus on our sins and ignore their own because we are the beacon of hope, and when we falter that obviously means that it’s ok for them to keep living in sin; after all, if a priest can’t even manage it then how are we supposed to. It’s a blame game, and it’s retarded.

As one last note, there is absolutely no “need” for sexual relations. There is a strong desire, amplified by our over-sexed society, but there is no need. People throughout history, priest and layman alike, have lived lives completely devoid of sex, none of them died because of it. Our society would like to tell us there’s an absolute need because they think that would justify their deviant and amoral behavior. Happily, I can tell them that there is no need, only a drive, one that can be mastered, and dedicated to a true loving relationship with your spouse. In the instance of these priests, their spouse is their church, and their sexual energies should be (and can be) converted into dedication for the Lord.
Click to expand...
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Indeed.

Cardinal O’Brien is making excuses, as are the priests who say that abstinence drove them to commit sinful acts. They can moan all they want about not being married, but the fact of the matter is that they knowingly chose a vocation where marriage was not common. They knowingly pursued a life dedicated to God. It is true, they may come to regret that decision, but it in no way excuses their behavior.

There is no connection between abstinence and sexual sin. In fact, if we were to run numbers, I’d place bets that the priesthood, per capita, has significantly fewer instances of sexual abuse than education professional, coaches, etc. Abstinence, and dedication to God, are far more likely to remove the urge to sin than to instill it.

The Church appears to have more of it because we are in the public eye, and people mistakenly believe that being able to point out sinful priests somehow negates the Truth of God’s On Holy and Apostolic Church. They focus on our sins and ignore their own because we are the beacon of hope, and when we falter that obviously means that it’s ok for them to keep living in sin; after all, if a priest can’t even manage it then how are we supposed to. It’s a blame game, and it’s retarded.

As one last note, there is absolutely no “need” for sexual relations. There is a strong desire, amplified by our over-sexed society, but there is no need. People throughout history, priest and layman alike, have lived lives completely devoid of sex, none of them died because of it. Our society would like to tell us there’s an absolute need because they think that would justify their deviant and amoral behavior. Happily, I can tell them that there is no need, only a drive, one that can be mastered, and dedicated to a true loving relationship with your spouse. In the instance of these priests, their spouse is their church, and their sexual energies should be (and can be) converted into dedication for the Lord.
Click to expand...
 
Woot, It’s nice getting positive feedback on your posts 😛
vstead said:
We know other religions suffer too but I’m just interested to know why its so prevalent in mine. Also, when you say its as bad in other circles like coaches teachers etc, I have to accept it happens there but I see a major difference between laymen behaving like this and the clergy.
Click to expand...
They can’t master it because they, like us, are human. It takes true dedication and drive to master that particular sin; speaking as someone who has not mastered it, I also have no idea how those who do so manage it. I guarantee it is no more prevalent in Catholicism than any other world religion or secular organization; we just took a beating because some of our Bishops made very poor decisions on how to handle it. As I said before, we are in the public eye, and it is currently socially acceptable to bash Catholics for no reason other than that we work to adhere to God’s ways, and not the ways of the world.

Also, you shouldn’t make any major distinction between laymen and clergy. It’s true that the clergy should hold themselves to higher standards than the rest of us, but in the end we are all human and all liable to the same failures. Instead of focusing on these individuals who hurt the Church with their actions, focus on those who deny themselves, silently, constantly, and with happiness. They are the true face of the Faith.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Indeed.

The Church appears to have more of it because we are in the public eye, and people mistakenly believe that being able to point out sinful priests somehow negates the Truth of God’s On Holy and Apostolic Church. They focus on our sins and ignore their own because we are the beacon of hope, and when we falter that obviously means that it’s ok for them to keep living in sin; after all, if a priest can’t even manage it then how are we supposed to. It’s a blame game .
Click to expand...
Re your 2nd paragraph. I don’t see the reasoning that by worrying about the state of the priesthood somehow means one is only doing it so as to feel better about their own sins. Could it not just be that good people are objecting to the - in some cases - awful things going on in the catholic church and are looking for reasons answers etc
 
vstead said:
Re your 2nd paragraph. I don’t see the reasoning that by worrying about the state of the priesthood somehow means one is only doing it so as to feel better about their own sins. Could it not just be that good people are objecting to the - in some cases - awful things going on in the catholic church and are looking for reasons answers etc
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I’d say you both have a point. This behaviour is obviously abhorred by all people of genuine Christian faith - having said that though it is a weapon in the hands of anyone who wishes to demoralize Catholicism and Christianity, and there are plenty of those round at the moment, who seem to be willing to throw the kitchen sink at all Christianity.
 
vstead said:
Re your 2nd paragraph. I don’t see the reasoning that by worrying about the state of the priesthood somehow means one is only doing it so as to feel better about their own sins. Could it not just be that good people are objecting to the - in some cases - awful things going on in the catholic church and are looking for reasons answers etc
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They very well could have, but I personally have heard the argument I put forth argued by more than a few people. It basically goes like this:

Other: “How can you say it’s bad when even your own priests are doing it?”

Me: “So, them doing automatically makes it alright?”

Other: “If they’re not willing to put up with your rules, why should you bother?”

Me: “I heard the same rational used by a cop who murdered a suspect.”

Other: “Well, that’s different.”

About that time, I generally start to tune out, because it’s apparent they’re not looking for any real discussion.

You have a very valid point, and certain leaders of our church have committed atrocities; but that doesn’t explain why the media puts so much more focus on it when it’s a priest as opposed to say, a teacher or coach. Sure, a few of them break into big new stories; but you only hear about a fraction of them. In contrast, whenever there’s even the hint of something out of the norm happening with the church the media jumps all over it, and generally with a very negative spin (If you don’t believe me, just look at the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, and the speculation many news outlets have been making as to why; not to mention the pure bile and hatred that is the new site comments thread.)
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Woot, It’s nice getting positive feedback on your posts 😛

They can’t master it because they, like us, are human. It takes true dedication and drive to master that particular sin; speaking as someone who has not mastered it, I also have no idea how those who do so manage it. I guarantee it is no more prevalent in Catholicism than any other world religion or secular organization; we just took a beating because some of our Bishops made very poor decisions on how to handle it. As I said before, we are in the public eye, and it is currently socially acceptable to bash Catholics for no reason other than that we work to adhere to God’s ways, and not the ways of the world.

Also, you shouldn’t make any major distinction between laymen and clergy. It’s true that the clergy should hold themselves to higher standards than the rest of us, but in the end we are all human and all liable to the same failures. Instead of focusing on these individuals who hurt the Church with their actions, focus on those who deny themselves, silently, constantly, and with happiness. They are the true face of the Faith.
Click to expand...
I needed some words of wisdom and got them from you so thank-you.
 
ephesians4 said:
I’d say you both have a point. This behaviour is obviously abhorred by all people of genuine Christian faith - having said that though it is a weapon in the hands of anyone who wishes to demoralize Catholicism and Christianity, and there are plenty of those round at the moment, who seem to be willing to throw the kitchen sink at all Christianity.
Click to expand...
Again, some more wise words. Thank-you.
 
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