How Satan came to this world?

[Bahman]

I had several discussions about the origin of evil and apparently everything return to story of Satan and fallen angel. I am however not convinced that this story true for the following reason:

1. We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.
2. The story of rebellion against God is also nonsense in the case that no one specially Lucifer could possibly lose that closeness to God and play a game which its end is quite obvious and foolish.
3. Why Satan and his army should be dominant on us being able to tempt us if they have already fallen.

 

[grannymh]

I had several discussions about the origin of evil and apparently everything return to story of Satan and fallen angel. I am however not convinced that this story true for the following reason:

1. We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.
2. The story of rebellion against God is also nonsense in the case that no one specially Lucifer could possibly lose that closeness to God and play a game which its end is quite obvious and foolish.
3. Why Satan and his army should be dominant on us being able to tempt us if they have already fallen.

Pardon me. “Number 1) We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.” – is inaccurate. Humans have a nature that is an unique unification of the rational spiritual soul and the decomposing material anatomy. Both are inherently good in themselves.

 

[tonyrey]

I had several discussions about the origin of evil and apparently everything return to story of Satan and fallen angel. I am however not convinced that this story true for the following reason:

1. We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.

 

[Bahman]

Pardon me. “Number 1) We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.” – is inaccurate. Humans have a nature that is an unique unification of the rational spiritual soul and the decomposing material anatomy. Both are inherently good in themselves.

How do we do evil then? Please don’t say that evil act is the result of privation of good since privation of good cannot act as potential leading to evil act. In another word, privation of good is an empty quality and cannot lead to evil. Moreover, if we assume that our spiritual soul is only good then all evil acts turns into meaningless qualities, meaning that we could not assign them as evil acts. The fact that we know an evil act is evil is rooted to the fact that we intrinsically own them and are aware of them. As an example, you feel bad if you hear that someone was murdered which means that you have knowledge to this evil act and could comprehend it.

 

[Bahman]

There is no evidence that Satan was in the immediate Presence of God. The account is allegorical.

So he was not in heaven and one of those fallen angel? And he was not highest angel?

The ability to tempt is not a sign of dominance nor are we isolated individuals.

Could you tempt Satan? The ability to temp is a sign that Satan could read our minds, know our weakness and then could tempt us. This is very unique power. The question is why God give him all this tools on disposal.

 

[Porknpie]

So he was not in heaven and one of those fallen angel? And he was not highest angel?

Could you tempt Satan? The ability to temp is a sign that Satan could read our minds, know our weakness and then could tempt us. This is very unique power. The question is why God give him all this tools on disposal.

My wife can tempt me to eat chocolate cake just by making it and putting it in front of me. It doesn’t mean that I had chocolate cake on my mind, although she knows that I like chocolate cake. Satan tempts us on some things because he knows us through our actions and tempts us on other things to probe weaknesses. None of this means he can read out minds unless we allow him to do so…iMHO

 

[Bahman]

My wife can tempt me to eat chocolate cake just by making it and putting it in front of me. It doesn’t mean that I had chocolate cake on my mind, although she knows that I like chocolate cake. Satan tempts us on some things because he knows us through our actions and tempts us on other things to probe weaknesses. None of this means he can read out minds unless we allow him to do so…iMHO

Can you please only elaborate on the topic tempting? How he could tempt us without having access to our mind?

 

[simpleas]

My wife can tempt me to eat chocolate cake just by making it and putting it in front of me. It doesn’t mean that I had chocolate cake on my mind, although she knows that I like chocolate cake. Satan tempts us on some things because he knows us through our actions and tempts us on other things to probe weaknesses. None of this means he can read out minds unless we allow him to do so…iMHO

Would you say then, that if satan can read our minds he is some how on the same level as God, when he is below God?

How do we let satan read our minds? Are we aware of this?

Thanks

 

[Dorothy]

Can you please only elaborate on the topic tempting? How he could tempt us without having access to our mind?

The fallen angels do not have access to our minds. They can observe us and learn what our weaknesses are.

We are not only tempted by the devil and his demons. We are also tempted by the world, and the flesh.

And, the evil one is on a leash, in that he can only tempt as God allows. God has His grace available to us if we resist temptation, and so we can grow in sanctity. That is the good that comes from temptation.

What God gives He does not take back. The devil and demons have certain abilities, and God uses this for a greater good. (our sanctification.)

 

[Bahman]

The fallen angels do not have access to our minds. They can observe us and learn what our weaknesses are.

We are not only tempted by the devil and his demons. We are also tempted by the world, and the flesh.

Could you please tell us about the process in which the temptation is transferred from Satan’s mind to our mind? What is it if it is not mind control?

And, the evil one is on a leash, in that he can only tempt as God allows.

Do you mean that there is still a relationship going between God and devils, call it leash or anything you want.

 

[Phalanx]

I read somewhere that if you “open” your mind and “let” the devil in, he will do just that. And that he could also enter if you’re in a vulnerable state with your faith. And that was when possessions and demonic temptations happened or w/e.

Dont quote me on this though, i dont remember the source nor do i really know what the Church says about these things

 

[Back2Church]

1. We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.

Do you mean in general, or are you speaking of the Adam and Eve story? If you simply mean in general, then I would challenge you to show a precedence for the belief that humans can only perform evil when tempted by satan, rather than of their own accord.

If you mean the Adam and Eve story, then I would remind you that the literal interpretation of two people, a serpent, and a piece of fruit is not what you should be taking away from this story.

1. The story of rebellion against God is also nonsense in the case that (1) no one specially Lucifer could possibly lose that closeness to God and ***(2) ***play a game which its end is quite obvious and foolish.

(1) What’s the precedence for your belief that is impossible for Lucifer to fall away from God?

(2) That’s what prideful stubbornness is all about. Opposition even when you know you’re not right or not going to win. Are you saying it is impossible for satan to be stubborn?

1. Why Satan and his army should be dominant on us being able to tempt us if they have already fallen.

Are you saying that unfallen angels are the only ones who should have the power to tempt us? As if the power to tempt us is some kind of benefit or authority that gets stripped from angels when they fall from heaven? Again, what is your reasoning behind this statement.

I recommend you check out a couple of books to help you understand the nature of angels, demons, and satan. They are both pretty small and very easy to read, yet highly academic. You will undoubtedly come away with a much better understanding of the subject if you read these.
Interview with an Exorcist by Fr. José Fortea
Angels (and Demons) by Peter Kreeft

 

[Neofight]

Earth must have been a wonderful place (at least) that first week of existence before satan arrived on earth!

 

[Bahman]

Do you mean in general, or are you speaking of the Adam and Eve story? If you simply mean in general, then I would challenge you to show a precedence for the belief that humans can only perform evil when tempted by satan, rather than of their own accord.

I mean in general and I believe a part of our evil actions is the result of our evils.

If you mean the Adam and Eve story, then I would remind you that the literal interpretation of two people, a serpent, and a piece of fruit is not what you should be taking away from this story.

I am aware of that story, but Eve could not have been tempted by serpent/Satan before Satan’s fall. So everything in fact is related to Satan’s fall. Moreover what was the purpose of God in putting an evil fruit in paradise? It was evil since eating it bring bad consequences.

(1) What’s the precedence for your belief that is impossible for Lucifer to fall away from God?

(2) That’s what prideful stubbornness is all about. Opposition even when you know you’re not right or not going to win. Are you saying it is impossible for satan to be stubborn?

Answer to your first question: He was created good, and was in presence of God, which is perfect good, so there is no logical reason to believe why he should leave his peaceful place and buy fire instead. He did know that he could not beat God, so rebellion against God was meaningless.

Answer to your second question: Stubborn and at the same time being the highest angel? That means that God chose the most stubborn angle to be closest one to him. Either the stubborn is a good quality or God didn’t know his angels most importantly the one closest to him which both case are wrong.

Are you saying that unfallen angels are the only ones who should have the power to tempt us? As if the power to tempt us is some kind of benefit or authority that gets stripped from angels when they fall from heaven? Again, what is your reasoning behind this statement.

Do you believe that fallen angels has the power to tempt us?

 

[marymary1975]

I had several discussions about the origin of evil and apparently everything return to story of Satan and fallen angel. I am however not convinced that this story true for the following reason:

1. We are all created with gifts of good and evil so assigning evil as a result of temptation of Satan is misleading.
2. The story of rebellion against God is also nonsense in the case that no one specially Lucifer could possibly lose that closeness to God and play a game which its end is quite obvious and foolish.
3. Why Satan and his army should be dominant on us being able to tempt us if they have already fallen.

Number 1 is wrong, we were not created with 'gifts of good and evil" when god created us our nature was good, sin entered into the world as the result of our disobedience, and that disobedience was the result of the devil’s temptation. The devil placed temptation in the human mind and the human help for it. With that all evil and sin came into the world but previous to that there was no evil nature in us.

As to the devil he was created as an angel, however he by his own will rebelled against God, he wanted to be bigger than God and have the same power as God. His desired for power wad what led him into and that is no way foolish. The same could be said of Hitler. Napoleon, the Roman empire and every single kingdome that has tried to conquer the entire earth. Don’t you think it was foolish of them to play a game that they were obviously going to lose? Nobody ever has been able to conquer the earth and every person who has tried has lost, don’t you think Hitler and Napoleon should have know that? Can we say that WWII wad not real because why would Hitler would have started a war that obviously he was going to lose. The reason why the devil did it is the same as why Hitler and napoleon did it despite logic indicating that they were going to lose, because they thought they were invincible. The devil thought he was bigger than God and that he was invincible, unfortunately just like Hitler in the end he realized the enemy was more powerful and didn’t end very well.

The answer to #3 is that because the devil is a creature superior to us. It doesn’t matter if he is fallen, he is an angel therefore he is superior to us so he has to power to manipulate us and tempt us. Obviously the superior.creature has the power to dominate the inferior one, specially when the superior creature has been around since the very beginning and has a kuch netters knowledge of things.

 

[marymary1975]

Could you please tell us about the process in which the temptation is transferred from Satan’s mind to our mind? What is it if it is not mind control?

Do you mean that there is still a relationship going between God and devils, call it leash or anything you want.

Jesus gave the answer to that question. The devil doesn’t “transfers” temptations or anything like that. He lies! The way the devil tempt us is the same as he did with Eve, he lied to her and she fell into his lie. Same with us, the devil give us lies and people.believe those lies and fall into temptation. No mind tricks in here, we by our wn will choose to sin and fall into temptation. The role of the devil is lying that is why in the lord’s prayer we ask God not to let us fall into temptation because the devil can’t force is to anything.

 

[marymary1975]

I read somewhere that if you “open” your mind and “let” the devil in, he will do just that. And that he could also enter if you’re in a vulnerable state with your faith. And that was when possessions and demonic temptations happened or w/e.

Dont quote me on this though, i dont remember the source nor do i really know what the Church says about these things

The devil is like a dog with rabies tied to a pole. If you stay far away from the dog he will never be able to bite you because he is tied, but if you decide to walk close to him and stand right next to him then he is going to bite. The issue is that this dog is very smart and he knows that if he barks everyone will stay away from him, so he doesnt bark, instead he sings beautiful songs filled up.with lies so people would believe them and come.close and when they come.close then he bites. Probably that is a little better explanation than being vulnerable in your faith, it is more that because you are not strong in your faith you fell for the lie and come close to him.and then he bites. As to possessions moat possessions actually happen as the result of people getting involved in what is forbidden in the bible: invoking spirits, contact mediums, playing ouija, etc. Same thing the person by their own will choose to get involved with that and the result is that he is going ti bite and not let go.

 

[marymary1975]

I am aware of that story, but Eve could not have been tempted by serpent/Satan before Satan’s fall. So everything in fact is related to Satan’s fall. Moreover what was the purpose of God in putting an evil fruit in paradise? It was evil since eating it bring bad consequences.

Answer to your first question: He was created good, and was in presence of God, which is perfect good, so there is no logical reason to believe why he should leave his peaceful place and buy fire instead. He did know that he could not beat God, so rebellion against God was meaningless.

Eve’s temptation happened after the devil.was sent to earth. The so.called fruit was not evil, in fact you have to forget about the fruit and eating it because most likely it wasn’t even a fruit, as the famous fruit is figurative (I recommend you to read the writing of JPII) the point of the story is that God gave an order to humans and humans disobeyed that order which still happens today.

Why should he leave and buy fire? Why Hitler decided to get involved into a world.war knowing that no one in the history of the world.has been able to defeat Russia and knowing that the USA had the most powerful army in the world? Why he didn’t stay in peace governing over Germany and instead buy fire? Moreover why do humans still in sinning knowing that there is a God? Don’t you think the logical thing for humans is stay in peace follow God and not sin? Then why people still insist in doing evil, wars and sin when they know they are buying fire with it? Because they all including the devil believe they are invincible and greater than God.

 

[Bahman]

Number 1 is wrong, we were not created with 'gifts of good and evil" when god created us our nature was good, sin entered into the world as the result of our disobedience, and that disobedience was the result of the devil’s temptation. The devil placed temptation in the human mind and the human help for it. With that all evil and sin came into the world but previous to that there was no evil nature in us.

What do you mean with “as the result of our disobedience”? I mean how disobedience could result to having evil inside?

How devil could put temptation in our mind when our mind was good? I mean, we either have temptation toward fruit or not. If yes, this means that we have evil inside otherwise the act temptation is quite meaningless process since we are good and have no feeling/understand of what temptation mean.

Example, suppose that you live in a world that one have no idea about sin/evil whatsoever, simply state of mind of Adam and Eve. Then suppose that devil comes to you (Adam) and tempt you to lie to eve. What would be your response?: “What a hell is a lie?” Etc.

As to the devil he was created as an angel, however he by his own will rebelled against God, he wanted to be bigger than God and have the same power as God. His desired for power wad what led him into and that is no way foolish. The same could be said of Hitler. Napoleon, the Roman empire and every single kingdome that has tried to conquer the entire earth. Don’t you think it was foolish of them to play a game that they were obviously going to lose? Nobody ever has been able to conquer the earth and every person who has tried has lost, don’t you think Hitler and Napoleon should have know that? Can we say that WWII wad not real because why would Hitler would have started a war that obviously he was going to lose. The reason why the devil did it is the same as why Hitler and napoleon did it despite logic indicating that they were going to lose, because they thought they were invincible. The devil thought he was bigger than God and that he was invincible, unfortunately just like Hitler in the end he realized the enemy was more powerful and didn’t end very well.

I read your reasoning and found it non-convincing.

The answer to #3 is that because the devil is a creature superior to us. It doesn’t matter if he is fallen, he is an angel therefore he is superior to us so he has to power to manipulate us and tempt us. Obviously the superior.creature has the power to dominate the inferior one, specially when the superior creature has been around since the very beginning and has a kuch netters knowledge of things.

Why God give them such a power and liberty so that they are dominant to us, knowing that what they do is evil which is against God wish?

 

[Bahman]

Jesus gave the answer to that question. The devil doesn’t “transfers” temptations or anything like that. He lies! The way the devil tempt us is the same as he did with Eve, he lied to her and she fell into his lie. Same with us, the devil give us lies and people.believe those lies and fall into temptation. No mind tricks in here, we by our wn will choose to sin and fall into temptation. The role of the devil is lying that is why in the lord’s prayer we ask God not to let us fall into temptation because the devil can’t force is to anything.

You already mentioned that they are dominant to us.