How serious a sin is plagiarism?

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**

Can anyone cast the first stone?**
Jesus followed that comment, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. .” with, “Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.”
(John 8, Douay-Rheims Bible)

I have every confidence that you, and all of us for that matter, will redouble our efforts in being respectful of other’s intellectual property.

Jon
 
I doubt if anyone here, ANYONE has never not once, either copied one line or a paragraph from someone else. If anyone here copies anything from the bible, then we are ALL guilty of it.
It is not the copying which is the sin, it is the misappropriation of credit to oneself of another’s work which is the sin. The gravity, of course, is variable–dependent upon the value of the copied material and the benefit of the misappropriated credit for that material.
 
Forgive me, but I don’t see how this kind of ridicule helps at all.🤷

Jon
I take this to mean that you suspect that the answer is 2nd grade but you are willing to be flexable and allow for 3rd. Fair enough.
 
I take this to mean that you suspect that the answer is 2nd grade but you are willing to be flexable and allow for 3rd. Fair enough.
Well, you took it wrong. Point out the fact her actions are wrong. Call her out on her recalcitrance in recognizing it. But ridicule is unnecessary, and is not fair enough.

Jon
 
Well, you took it wrong. Point out the fact her actions are wrong. Call her out on her recalcitrance in recognizing it. But ridicule is unnecessary, and is not fair enough.

Jon
Jon NC, seriously, when has this individual ever make a mature, well reasoned agruement for anything? It’s all bluster and nothing else.
 
Well, you took it wrong. Point out the fact her actions are wrong. Call her out on her recalcitrance in recognizing it. But ridicule is unnecessary, and is not fair enough.

Jon
Years ago I was sure that when Saint Paul listed the gifts of the Holy Spirit that he surely must have forgotten to include the gift of sarcasm. Maybe he made a mistake. I am so good at it and am so righteous that maybe he just made a mistake.

Ridicule is malice, indicating a much more serious spiritual disorder than failing to give credit or claiming credit for someone elses effiorts.
 
Jon NC, seriously, when has this individual ever make a mature, well reasoned agruement for anything? It’s all bluster and nothing else.
Jon Hus,
I know the OP did not want to get off into personalities, so apologies to Mick. I quite agree that many of OTCA’s arguments come from a position of triumphalism, and it often comes off as you describe it.
In the above post, Grandfather mentions sarcasm. Perhaps my use of the term “ridicule” is misplaced here, if simple sarcasm was your intent.

Jon
 
Jon NC, seriously, when has this individual ever make a mature, well reasoned agruement for anything? It’s all bluster and nothing else.
Only non-Catholics here have a problem with this because you people obviously have not a charitable bone in your bodies, let alone be kind and forgiven. Only non-Catholics bash us because they just can’t seem to understand the truth and the truth hurts.
You people want to crucify me for what you are ALL guilty of. It is ridiculous and totally absurd for you to act the way you do. ALL my posts are good posts. It is people like yourself who have problems about the Catholic church. period.
 
I take this to mean that you suspect that the answer is 2nd grade but you are willing to be flexable and allow for 3rd. Fair enough.
And you call yourself a Christian with these responses? what a joke…
 
I don’t know how serious it is. As intellectual property it is stolen, but it only brings harm if there is a material loss to the one party and an unearned material gain to another.

For instance if the artist or author was deriving revenue from the work, and the other party appropriated the revenue. It’s sort of like bootlegging.

One can argue that such activity always results in harm done. For instance, if I forget or deliberately omit to give proper credit to something I quote, then that other entity (the author or website controller) loses recognition, and therefore traffic. This might be important if the source is seeking donations or is collecting fees for ad space. That makes the intellectual property shareware, I suppose, but the price asked is really nothing more than proper attribution.

If the damage is minor, can we agree that the infraction is also minor?

Another point I should like to make is that dwelling on one another’s flaws (as I am prone to do on occasion, regrettably) is spiritually harmful to us.

Michael
 
Possibly. I chose this forum because I’m also interested in the non–Catholic view and this forum is where the non–Catholics are allowed to hang out.

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
I don’t quite understand the hierarchy of sins as the Catholics use it. My own opinion is…like all sins, the seriousness depends upon the intent of the sinner. The actual act may be the same, but the consequences to the sinner would vary.

I’m a teacher; plagiarism is something that I, unfortunately, deal with all the time, from students. They will do everything from steal a sentence or paragraph and forget to properly cite it, to submitting entire papers written by someone else under their names. Sometimes the actual writer is complicit in this; the paper is sold to the student submitting it.

Then there is the more financially damaging plagiarism when an author claims as his or her own work that which was written by someone else–and gets paid for it.

ALL of these things are ‘theft,’ but the student who is just not aware of the rules of citing material is far different from the guy who steals someone else’s manuscript and publishes it as a best seller.

It’s also very different depending upon who pays for the sin…the student who fails to cite something properly isn’t doing a whole lot of damage to the original writer, but he IS stealing from himself; he’s stealing knowlege, expertise, and character. Once he is found out, his reputation is forever damages–and why? Because he was lazy? Because someone else said something better than he did?

The one that makes money off of someone else’s work, though…that is purest theft as surely as if he had burglarized the home and cracked the safe.

Where it comes on the 'list?" I have no idea.
 
I don’t know how serious it is. As intellectual property it is stolen, but it only brings harm if there is a material loss to the one party and an unearned material gain to another.

For instance if the artist or author was deriving revenue from the work, and the other party appropriated the revenue. It’s sort of like bootlegging.

One can argue that such activity always results in harm done. For instance, if I forget or deliberately omit to give proper credit to something I quote, then that other entity (the author or website controller) loses recognition, and therefore traffic. This might be important if the source is seeking donations or is collecting fees for ad space. That makes the intellectual property shareware, I suppose, but the price asked is really nothing more than proper attribution.

If the damage is minor, can we agree that the infraction is also minor?

Another point I should like to make is that dwelling on one another’s flaws (as I am prone to do on occasion, regrettably) is spiritually harmful to us.

Michael
an example that I have used before, (maybe even here on this forum) is the following:

Two men, in adjoining apartments, are seen picking a woman up bodily and throwing her through a fourth story window. Both women land in a giant airbag and are safe and unhurt. One of the men is proclaimed as a hero. The other is convicted of attempted murder and spends the next 25 years in prison.

One of them, in other words, committed a very serious sin, and the other performed an act of courage—and they did PRECISELY THE SAME THING, with precisely identical results.

The difference/context? The building was on fire; the first and second floors were fully engulfed, and the only way out of the building was through those windows; that’s why there was an airbag. The first man, the hero, was a fireman who had run into the building in order to save lives; that was his purpose in tossing the woman out the window; he knew the bag was there; his intent was to save her life.

The second man was not aware of the fire; he was angry, and when he threw a woman out the window, he expected her to fall to the street and die. Even though his action actually saved her life, his intent was to kill her; it wasn’t his fault that there was an airbag waiting to save her.

Sin, I think, is all about intent and the attitude of the sinner. Knowledge, attitude, intent. Someone who steals another’s work has no control, really, over the consequences to his or her victim…and it doesn’t matter whether those consequences are large or small; the sin is in the intent.

Last year I saw a bully steal lunch money from a child; the child just shrugged, called his mom and she delivered a pizza to him and the class just before lunch. Another time I saw the same bully steal lunch money from another child. That child did not shrug it off, and calling his mom would do no good; school lunch was the only meal he got during the day. I think you can understand that the consequences to the victims were very different, even though the act was the same. The consequences to the bully were pretty much the same, too–he was suspended for precisely the same number of days whether his victim had to call for pizza to replace his lunch, or went hungry for the day.

Do you think that this bully’s sin was greater when he stole from the hungry child than from the merely inconvenienced one (if you can call pizza instead of a school lunch an ‘inconvenience,’ that is…)?

(Don’t worry, we fed the hungry child–but if I hadn’t seen the theft, he would have gone hungry)

Makes one wonder about these things, doesn’t it?
 
I don’t quite understand the hierarchy of sins as the Catholics use it. My own opinion is…like all sins, the seriousness depends upon the intent of the sinner. The actual act may be the same, but the consequences to the sinner would vary.
.
Intent is important, but there is more to it. If you are interested in how the Cathoic Church views the matter, hear is a short explanation. There are two types of sin. One destroys your relationship with God. It causes you to lose sanctifying grace, which is the life of the soul and necessary to the soul for salvation. This sin is called, mortal, or deadly. All sin is evil, but some are not sufficiently evil to cause a total breach between your soul and God. This is called venial. It damages your soul, makes it sick, but does not kill it. When we examine our consciences we all see personal flaws. Maybe a salesman flatters a customer to manipulate them to buy a pair of shoes, for example. He says to his customer that her dress or new hair style is very attractive, while he really thinks it is horrid. On the other hand if he murders his uncle to sieze his estate, you can see the degree of severity is very different.

In matters of mortal sin there are three conditions that have to be met for a person to be culpable. The matter of the sin must be grievous. The evil done has to be serious stuff. Secondly, the person must know it is evil. There has to be knowledge. You have to know you are doing wrong for the full weight of guilt to be imputed to the soul. The third condition is the will. You can’t commit a deadly sin by accident. You have to will it. I know this is evil and I choose to do it. It is in my will. This might be what you call intent.

So is plagarism a deadly sin? It is not very likely. It is much more grievous matter to deliberately try to humiliate someone, or destroy their reputation. So let me put you in a situation and ask yourself what you would do. It also might help you understand the concept.

Let’s say you were a woman and you did not particularly like your neighbor’s wife. She gossips about other neighborhood wives behind their backs. She brags about her kids and puts on airs. She does not keep her dog on a leash and the dog makes a mess on your lawn. You are a Republican and she is a Democrat. To make matters worse you work in the same office and she is annoying there as well. You find out she is having an affair with a coworker. What will you do?

She has some very serious sin in her life and is overall a big pain in the neck. If the whole neghborhood found out about her that would serve her right and maybe teach her a lesson. She deserves to be shamed and you only tell one other person in the neighborhood. Word spreads and her reputation and maybe her family is destroyed. Everyone knows the truth about her thanks to you. Even the other kids in the neighborhood find out and tease her children. You have more than achieved your end.

When we drag someone’s sins out in public to humiliate them, destroy their reputation, get even with them, we act in malice and this is always evil. There is no charity in it. It causes God who forgives our sins in His mercy, to change His mind according to the parable Jesus tells.
 
Do you think that this bully’s sin was greater when he stole from the hungry child than from the merely inconvenienced one (if you can call pizza instead of a school lunch an ‘inconvenience,’ that is…)?

(Don’t worry, we fed the hungry child–but if I hadn’t seen the theft, he would have gone hungry)

Makes one wonder about these things, doesn’t it?
You make excellent points.

I think intent is an important element, and I also think none of us is qualified to judge one another absolutely fairly. I suppose we should consider that judgment is a matter for God alone.
 
Intent is important, but there is more to it. If you are interested in how the Cathoic Church views the matter, hear is a short explanation. There are two types of sin. One destroys your relationship with God. It causes you to lose sanctifying grace, which is the life of the soul and necessary to the soul for salvation. This sin is called, mortal, or deadly. All sin is evil, but some are not sufficiently evil to cause a total breach between your soul and God. This is called venial. It damages your soul, makes it sick, but does not kill it. When we examine our consciences we all see personal flaws. Maybe a salesman flatters a customer to manipulate them to buy a pair of shoes, for example. He says to his customer that her dress or new hair style is very attractive, while he really thinks it is horrid. On the other hand if he murders his uncle to sieze his estate, you can see the degree of severity is very different.

In matters of mortal sin there are three conditions that have to be met for a person to be culpable. The matter of the sin must be grievous. The evil done has to be serious stuff. Secondly, the person must know it is evil. There has to be knowledge. You have to know you are doing wrong for the full weight of guilt to be imputed to the soul. The third condition is the will. You can’t commit a deadly sin by accident. You have to will it. I know this is evil and I choose to do it. It is in my will. This might be what you call intent.

So is plagarism a deadly sin? It is not very likely. It is much more grievous matter to deliberately try to humiliate someone, or destroy their reputation. So let me put you in a situation and ask yourself what you would do. It also might help you understand the concept.

Let’s say you were a woman and you did not particularly like your neighbor’s wife. She gossips about other neighborhood wives behind their backs. She brags about her kids and puts on airs. She does not keep her dog on a leash and the dog makes a mess on your lawn. You are a Republican and she is a Democrat. To make matters worse you work in the same office and she is annoying there as well. You find out she is having an affair with a coworker. What will you do?

She has some very serious sin in her life and is overall a big pain in the neck. If the whole neghborhood found out about her that would serve her right and maybe teach her a lesson. She deserves to be shamed and you only tell one other person in the neighborhood. Word spreads and her reputation and maybe her family is destroyed. Everyone knows the truth about her thanks to you. Even the other kids in the neighborhood find out and tease her children. You have more than achieved your end.

When we drag someone’s sins out in public to humiliate them, destroy their reputation, get even with them, we act in malice and this is always evil. There is no charity in it. It causes God who forgives our sins in His mercy, to change His mind according to the parable Jesus tells.
thank you; I think I followed that very well.

Would that sin (telling one other person in the neighborhood) be a mortal sin if that other person did not spread it around? If I knew that this other person would not spread it around?

Oh, never mind, I think you are correct; if my purpose in telling were to destroy the neighbor, it doesn’t much matter whether my purpose was actually served or not, does it?

Is gossip, then, considered to be a mortal sin?
 
You make excellent points.

I think intent is an important element, and I also think none of us is qualified to judge one another absolutely fairly. I suppose we should consider that judgment is a matter for God alone.
Eternal judgment, certainly! But that does leave a question: I know some Protestants say that all sin is equally damning. Catholics seem to have a hierarchy of seriousness. Mormons are sorta—both ways, in that it takes a little more doing to repent from one sort of sin than another.

It’s not easy to figure out what to do when we aren’t the actual sinner involved, is it?
 
thank you; I think I followed that very well.

Would that sin (telling one other person in the neighborhood) be a mortal sin if that other person did not spread it around? If I knew that this other person would not spread it around?

Oh, never mind, I think you are correct; if my purpose in telling were to destroy the neighbor, it doesn’t much matter whether my purpose was actually served or not, does it?

Is gossip, then, considered to be a mortal sin?
If your intent is malice, you want to hurt someone badly, even if the damage does not occur you are guilty. Jesus says we don’t have to hop in bed with our neighbor’s wife. All we have to do is want to and we are guilty of lust. The sin is in our hearts already. I can be guilty of murder if I hate someone and want to kill them. Gossip can be very serious sin if it wilfully tears down another person. Words can be very harmful.

There is gray matter, so gossip is not always so severe. You might tell a story about something really dumb I did, because in some way it is funny. You don’t want to inflict serious harm, but the story may embarass me. That is not so bad. There are two kinds of gossip. If the gossip is not true it is called calumny. If it is true it is called detraction. If the intent, as you call it, is malice, it is evil either way.
 
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