How should abortion be stopped?

[Stjudeprayforus]

AWWWW…

I have a picture of me

My nephews beating heart and all!

When I was pregnant with my son… I had one at 5 months. He thinks that is pretty cool… he is 17 now…

I think ALOT of minds could change if they SAW with their own eyes what is inside of them.
Because in all honesty… before the sonogram of my sisters… I didn’t think it was a baby, didn’t think it was murder… I thought nothing of it and the people praying outside of clinics were just religious nuts. My mind was changed instantly with a sonogram.

 

[estesbob]

In addition, wouldn’t those with financial resources circumvent any abortion ban by traveling to a jurisdiction where abortion is legal?

.

Are you saying that equal justice under the law means the Poor must have the same means to kill their children that the rich do???

 

[manualman]

For instance, Peter Singer, a formidable ethical scholar, argues that abortion can be ethnically acceptable in a preference utilitarian framework because the baby has no legitimate interests nor the capacity to feel pain. Furthermore, one can argue that imposing the pro-life views on the general population is an act of moral imperial since a substantial fraction of the population do not find abortion morally objectionable (about 40-60%).

Puhleese. Dr. Singer is ALSO on record arguing that a mother ought to have the right to kill her child up to the first birthday since such infants can’t be considered persons according to his definition and may infringe on the human rights of the mother.

Some people are simply educated far beyond their maturity. Nobody with his record has ANY credibility as an ethicist, regardless of his skill at sophistry.

 

[BVM_1221]

I don’t think it can be stopped, any more then you could bring back Jim Crow Laws and Prohibition. :nope:

Whether you agree with it or not, many women have a PERCEPTION that anti-abortion laws are a throwback to the bad old days, when women were second class citizens :sad_yes:

Even if Roe vs. Wade were overthrown, it would not ban abortion. It would simply return the matter to the individual states. Women from anti-abortion states will travel to pro-abortion states, just as the rich used to travel to Europe for their abortions. Just as today women in Ireland travel to the UK for their abortions.

Which will not stop those who oppose all abortions. Of course not. Go ahead, make my day.

But some Catholics might want to spend their time on causes other then that. (In my case, helping alcoholics and drug addicts)

 

[CWBetts]

In addition, wouldn’t those with financial resources circumvent any abortion ban by traveling to a jurisdiction where abortion is legal?

But as I stated earlier in this thread, I am a human with an emotional nature where my rationality can be overwhelmed by neurochemical imbalances. For instance, right now I am in a state of mild depression where I am incapable of loving and respecting myself (although I can tolerate such emotional fluctuations and I expect this state to pass in about a day). But if I could not love and respect myself, how could I respect the life of the fetus in the womb? Considering my emotional proclivities, I think, at best, I would be a lukewarm opponent of abortion where the issue of abortion could never eclipse what I perceive to be other important injustices in the world.

In addition, before I considered Catholicism, I had a set of secular ethics, mostly derived from utilitarian ethical theory, and I have not yet completely abandon it since I still find it a useful tool for moral and ethical reasoning.

Your problem is that you have not jettisoned amoral secularist thinking. Replace your secular “ethics” with the teachings of philosophers possessing true wisdom, St. Thomas Aquinas would be a good start.

 

[BVM_1221]

Your problem is that you have not jettisoned amoral secularist thinking. Replace your secular “ethics” with the teachings of philosophers possessing true wisdom, St. Thomas Aquinas would be a good start.

Not Spinoza?

 

[vera_dicere]

Start with education. Full on education. Most kids have access to teh internet, they know about sex, they know about contraception, most of them can get contraception without parental knowledge. They need to have that information placed in context. They need to be assisted to build their self esteem. So many girls are having sex because they feel its how they can get a boy to “like” them, boys are having sex because they think others will think they’re “cool”.

Make abstinence cool. Start cracking down on the over sexualisation of children. I saw a tee shirt in a major chain shop down here the other day with the play boy bunny and the words “naughty girl” on it. It would fit a four year old girl. I saw a couple of girls who looked about 8 years old wearing make up and boob tubes and short tops. The only people they’re impressing is the local paedophile. That’s why its so important we get rid of this over sexualisation.

Give children back their child hood!

Education of parents needs to be stepped up. Bring back discipline, parents have to know that their job isn’t to be their kid’s best friend, but their parent. they’re not going to be popular, but that unpopularity will save their child a life of regret and pain,

Children are getting pretty full on sex ed in most schools, include pregnancy in that, include abortion in that. Show them images of STDs. Of uterine cancers. Of stretch marks and vaginal stitching post a difficult birth. Show them images of the unborn child, before and AFTER abortion. Kids can handle it. They’ve seen worse online.

Make it really, REALLY uncool to have sex out of wedlock.

Make it really, REALLY uncool to have an abortion. Keep abortion a filthy shameful scandal so women won’t want them.

But we need to assist women who have had abortions are are hurting, because guess what? That’ what abortions do! Hurt women!

Then we need to focus on partical assistance, free prenatal health care, make adoption more enticing, assist girls to continue their education or women to continue their careers while pregnant or if they choose to raise their children.

The problem here is we need the practical assistance to help women without enticing women to get pregnant, but I’m sure we can find the balance.

Then, ban abortion. Only when society is completely repulsed by aboriton will they seek to want it banned. Then, if someone has an abortion, go after the abortionist. His punishment can be the same as whatever punishment is metred out for murder.

As for the woman, I’m personally of the mind that if a woman fully desires adn seeks out an abortion then she should be sterilised. If you torture a pet you’re banned from owning them. Same shoudl be said of children. Think of it as a preventive measure.

 

[Black_Rose]

Your problem is that you have not jettisoned amoral secularist thinking. Replace your secular “ethics” with the teachings of philosophers possessing true wisdom, St. Thomas Aquinas would be a good start.

Secular ethics aren’t amoral, it is indeed materialistic.

I also posted this earlier to why using secular ethical reasoning is valuable because of its universality:

Certainly Church teaching should influence are consciences, but it is impossible for it solely influence our consciences because it would also be inevitable impacted by secular values and philosophies. My own conscience is still has the impressions of secular philosophy and ethics, but I suppose most of these values are compatible with Church teaching. It is not possible for me to construct a new system of ethics de novo based on Church teaching, but it will be built based on a foundation of my previous secular ethics. It is much more productive when dealing with Machiavellian world to phrase one’s ethical concerns in a secular, universal language as oppose to the sectarian perspective of the Church.d

 

[CWBetts]

Secular ethics aren’t amoral, it is indeed materialistic.

I also posted this earlier to why using secular ethical reasoning is valuable because of its universality:

I disagree. Just because the larger world accepts Kant does not mean I have utilize that particular reptile’s ideas. Secular materialism has no place in Catholic thought.

 

[kimmielittle]

Peter Singer, a formidable ethical scholar, argues that abortion can be ethnically acceptable in a preference utilitarian framework because the baby has no legitimate interests nor the capacity to feel pain. Furthermore, one can argue that imposing the pro-life views on the general population is an act of moral imperial since a substantial fraction of the population do not find abortion morally objectionable (about 40-60%).

I posted this earlier:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=443731&highlight=confucian

I don’t think I’d use “The Doctor of Death” Mr Singer }…here are some thoughts he holds on beastly

Almost a century ago, when Freud had just published his groundbreaking Three Essays on Sexuality, the Viennese writer Otto Soyka published a fiery little volume called Beyond the Boundary of Morals. Never widely known, and now entirely forgotten, it was a polemic directed against the prohibition of “unnatural” sex like bestiality, homosexuality, fetishism and other non-reproductive acts. Soyka saw these prohibitions as futile and misguided attempts to limit the inexhaustible variety of human sexual desire. Only bestiality, he argued, should be illegal, and even then, only in so far as it shows cruelty towards an animal.

But sex with animals does not always involve cruelty. Who has not been at a social occasion disrupted by the household dog gripping the legs of a visitor and vigorously rubbing its penis against them? The host usually discourages such activities, but in private not everyone objects to being used by her or his dog in this way, and occasionally mutually satisfying activities may develop. Soyka would presumably have thought this within the range of human sexual variety.

nerve.com/opinions/singer/heavypetting/

And here

In a 2006 interview with Stephen Colbert, on the The Colbert Report, Singer is asked if he is in favor of having sex with animals. He might have taken some offense to the question, but eventually answers: No I am not in favor of people having sex with animals. I think sex with humans would be more fun.

colbertnation.com/the-col…r-singer-pt–2

Asked at the 2:26 mark

Here is some more

 

[kimmielittle]

Puhleese. Dr. Singer is ALSO on record arguing that a mother ought to have the right to kill her child up to the first birthday since such infants can’t be considered persons according to his definition and may infringe on the human rights of the mother.

Some people are simply educated far beyond their maturity. Nobody with his record has ANY credibility as an ethicist, regardless of his skill at sophistry.

 

[kimmielittle]

My nephews beating heart and all!

When I was pregnant with my son… I had one at 5 months. He thinks that is pretty cool… he is 17 now…

I think ALOT of minds could change if they SAW with their own eyes what is inside of them.
Because in all honesty… before the sonogram of my sisters… I didn’t think it was a baby, didn’t think it was murder… I thought nothing of it and the people praying outside of clinics were just religious nuts. My mind was changed instantly with a sonogram.

I think, giving women who pass pro-lifers, and come to abortion clinics… free sonogram tickets…is a good tool.

 

[the_phoenix]

Most people, despite possessing differing capacities for moral reasoning (see Kohlberg’s stages of moral development), agree that speeding and theft (actual robbery, not jejune libertarian slogans such as “taxation is theft”) are wrong. However, different people at advanced levels of moral reason (Kohlberg’s fifth and sixth stages: the post conventional stages of social contract and universal ethical principles) can arrive at different conclusions about the morality of abortion using abstract reason. For instance, Peter Singer, a formidable ethical scholar, argues that abortion can be ethnically acceptable in a preference utilitarian framework because the baby has no legitimate interests nor the capacity to feel pain. Furthermore, one can argue that imposing the pro-life views on the general population is an act of moral imperial since a substantial fraction of the population do not find abortion morally objectionable (about 40-60%).

Look, this isn’t rocket science. We don’t need any ethical scholars to weigh in on this.
We’ve already got the Ten Commandments.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The above photo was taken by me this past January 22nd at the March for Life rally in Washington, DC.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Holly3278]

Here is what I believe should happen:

1. 
   *]Enact a federal ban on all abortions.
   *]Punish all abortion “doctors” by permanently removing their medical license, imprisoning them for life without parole, and fining them $100,000 per abortion performed.
   *]Punish all women who get an abortion with life in prison without parole and a fine of $100,000 per abortion women who were pushed into getting an abortion by someone else will still be punished (unless they were absolutely forced to get an abortion) but with a lesser sentence.
   *]Punish all men who push women into getting an abortion with life in prison without parole and a $100,000 fine per abortion that they caused.
   *]Punish all people who go overseas for an abortion with life imprisonment without parole and a $100,000 fine per abortion.
   *]Punish all pro-abortion activists with at least 75 years in prison without parole and a $100,000 fine per incident of activism.
   *]Punish any and all abortion “clinic” workers with at least 75 years in prison without parole.
   *]Forcefully disband all abortion “clinics” and other pro-abortion organizations and convert their facilities into pro-life crisis pregnancy centers and/or chapels/churches with a strong pro-life stance.
   *]Require all sexually active women to undergo a pelvic exam every year and be checked for evidence of an abortion. If found guilty of having an abortion, they will be punished as all other women who get an abortion are to be punished.
   *]Federal and state funding for pro-life education, crisis pregnancy centers, and other pro-life organizations.
   
   There is probably more that could be done but nothing else really comes to mind right now.
   
   That said, some of you may say that my proposed punishments are excessively harsh. I disagree. They are harsh, yes, very harsh. However, this is murder of the most innocent members of society we are talking about here. And it’s not just murder either, it’s very very brutal murder. I mean, how often do you hear of non-fetal murders where the person had their limbs forcefully ripped off, were burnt to death with acid, or had a sharp instrument stabbed through their skull and their brains forcefully sucked out? Not very often I would venture to guess. But the fact is, these types of murders are performed every single day by the hundreds if not thousands! If someone under current laws were convicted of a murder of this type of a person who is already born, they’d almost certainly get the death penalty. So yeah, what I am advocating is basically that we simply treat the abortion “doctors” and women who get abortions as the murderers that they are whose victims are just as human and just as valuable as any born person. Is there something so wrong with that?

 

[tbcrawford]

Punishing poor women who have had abortion is not the way forward in my humble opinion.
Showing compassion,love and care, giving them the opportunity to heal and greive for their lost child seems the way forward.When they are ready, give them the opportunity to educate others from having an abortion.

We do not know every single persons reason for having had an abortion and eventually most women severely regret having had one.It is not for us to judge these poor women but to love them help them and this is the way of enabling the ‘post abortion’ survivors to cope and their experience will help other women in situations where they are frightened and don’t feel able to cope with pregnancy.

What would Jesus do? I think He would love them for He knows they are sorry.The women who have had abortions could greatly help others NOT to.
Just my humble opinion

 

[CWBetts]

Here is what I believe should happen:

1. 
   *]Enact a federal ban on all abortions.
   *]Punish all abortion “doctors” by permanently removing their medical license, imprisoning them for life without parole, and fining them $100,000 per abortion performed.
   *]Punish all women who get an abortion with life in prison without parole and a fine of $100,000 per abortion women who were pushed into getting an abortion by someone else will still be punished (unless they were absolutely forced to get an abortion) but with a lesser sentence.
   *]Punish all men who push women into getting an abortion with life in prison without parole and a $100,000 fine per abortion that they caused.
   *]Punish all people who go overseas for an abortion with life imprisonment without parole and a $100,000 fine per abortion.
   *]Punish all pro-abortion activists with at least 75 years in prison without parole and a $100,000 fine per incident of activism.
   *]Punish any and all abortion “clinic” workers with at least 75 years in prison without parole.
   *]Forcefully disband all abortion “clinics” and other pro-abortion organizations and convert their facilities into pro-life crisis pregnancy centers and/or chapels/churches with a strong pro-life stance.
   *]Require all sexually active women to undergo a pelvic exam every year and be checked for evidence of an abortion. If found guilty of having an abortion, they will be punished as all other women who get an abortion are to be punished.
   *]Federal and state funding for pro-life education, crisis pregnancy centers, and other pro-life organizations.
   
   There is probably more that could be done but nothing else really comes to mind right now.
   
   That said, some of you may say that my proposed punishments are excessively harsh. I disagree. They are harsh, yes, very harsh. However, this is murder of the most innocent members of society we are talking about here. And it’s not just murder either, it’s very very brutal murder. I mean, how often do you hear of non-fetal murders where the person had their limbs forcefully ripped off, were burnt to death with acid, or had a sharp instrument stabbed through their skull and their brains forcefully sucked out? Not very often I would venture to guess. But the fact is, these types of murders are performed every single day by the hundreds if not thousands! If someone under current laws were convicted of a murder of this type of a person who is already born, they’d almost certainly get the death penalty. So yeah, what I am advocating is basically that we simply treat the abortion “doctors” and women who get abortions as the murderers that they are whose victims are just as human and just as valuable as any born person. Is there something so wrong with that?

1. 
   These draconian measures are nothing short of terrifying, particularly the suggestion of “pro-abortion activism” being made a criminal act. This would set up a dangerous precedent, allowing the government to silence who they wish with impunity. I am pro-life, which means that I seek the protection of human life from conception until natural death. I also recognize measures that strip humans of their dignity and rights are antithetical to being pro-life. These measures would do that exactly: strip human persons of their dignity. I believe you need to rethink your position.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

I am not sure what would work. Pro life views are starting to outnumber pro abortion views… so we are doing something right.
Like I said above… in my day, we were all told it was just a bunch of cells… not a baby…ect.
Now with advancements… we know this is not true. We are now finding out un born children feel pain at younger and younger gestation.

When I read the arguments about being kind and not judging… I always wonder would you feel the same way if people were murdering 4 year olds to the tune of 4,000 a day?

I changed the wording of the above post… I am not trying to be mean… but… the only difference is one was born and one was killed before he or she was born.
Does it change your mind at all ? The value of life has been diminished … we view life inside the womb as a lesser life, it isnt.

just my 2 cents. …

Punishing poor women who have killed their 4 year old child is not the way forward in my humble opinion.
Showing compassion,love and care, giving them the opportunity to heal and greive for their lost 4 year old child seems the way forward.When they are ready, give them the opportunity to educate others from killing their 4 year old child.

We do not know every single persons reason for **killing their 4 year old child **and eventually most women severely regret it.It is not for us to judge these poor women but to love them help them and this is the way of enabling the ‘post murder’ survivors to cope and their experience will help other women in situations where they are frightened and don’t feel able to cope with their 4 year old.

What would Jesus do? I think He would love them for He knows they are sorry.The women who have killed their 4 year olds greatly help others NOT to.
Just my humble opinion

 

[Puddin317]

Here is what I believe should happen:

1. 
   *]Enact a federal ban on all abortions.
   *]Punish all abortion “doctors” by permanently removing their medical license, imprisoning them for life without parole, and fining them $100,000 per abortion performed.
   *]Punish all women who get an abortion with life in prison without parole and a fine of $100,000 per abortion women who were pushed into getting an abortion by someone else will still be punished (unless they were absolutely forced to get an abortion) but with a lesser sentence.
   *]Punish all men who push women into getting an abortion with life in prison without parole and a $100,000 fine per abortion that they caused.
   *]Punish all people who go overseas for an abortion with life imprisonment without parole and a $100,000 fine per abortion.
   *]Punish all pro-abortion activists with at least 75 years in prison without parole and a $100,000 fine per incident of activism.
   *]Punish any and all abortion “clinic” workers with at least 75 years in prison without parole.
   *]Forcefully disband all abortion “clinics” and other pro-abortion organizations and convert their facilities into pro-life crisis pregnancy centers and/or chapels/churches with a strong pro-life stance.
   *]Require all sexually active women to undergo a pelvic exam every year and be checked for evidence of an abortion. If found guilty of having an abortion, they will be punished as all other women who get an abortion are to be punished.
   *]Federal and state funding for pro-life education, crisis pregnancy centers, and other pro-life organizations.
   
   There is probably more that could be done but nothing else really comes to mind right now.
   
   That said, some of you may say that my proposed punishments are excessively harsh. I disagree. They are harsh, yes, very harsh. However, this is murder of the most innocent members of society we are talking about here. And it’s not just murder either, it’s very very brutal murder. I mean, how often do you hear of non-fetal murders where the person had their limbs forcefully ripped off, were burnt to death with acid, or had a sharp instrument stabbed through their skull and their brains forcefully sucked out? Not very often I would venture to guess. But the fact is, these types of murders are performed every single day by the hundreds if not thousands! If someone under current laws were convicted of a murder of this type of a person who is already born, they’d almost certainly get the death penalty. So yeah, what I am advocating is basically that we simply treat the abortion “doctors” and women who get abortions as the murderers that they are whose victims are just as human and just as valuable as any born person. Is there something so wrong with that?

1. 
   That’s a fantastic line of thinking… thank you so much for sharing.

 

[Puddin317]

For those of you so quick to judge and condemn those of us who have had abortions and are seeking recovery… perhaps you should read the words of PJ II …

nccbuscc.org/prolife/programs/rlp//97rlpang.shtml

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

For those of you so quick to judge and condemn those of us who have had abortions and are seeking recovery… perhaps you should read the words of PJ II …

nccbuscc.org/prolife/programs/rlp//97rlpang.shtml

I am more disgusted at how this all came to be. Somehow, the pro abortion people convinced millions and millions of women that it isnt a baby and its your own choice to have an abortion. Their message was perfectly accepted by so many. Pro life has been playing catch up.

Millions of women have been duped by lies and evil. I hope we can continue to educate woman on what it is they are doing. I believe that once woman know… abortion will become as reviled as it should be.

I am not judging you, I have friends who have had NUMEROUS abortions that still will make excuses. ‘It’ would have ruined my life ect… I think it is hard to reconcile that what they did was murder. Thank God some woman understand what they have done and make their peace with God. That takes alot of inner strength to admit to it… and a great deal of faith in the forgiveness of sins.

God bless you.