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TechieGuy
Guest
Yet another ‘more Catholic than the Pope’ convert?
How should Catholics deal with Protestants? The early church said not to associate but the doctrine has changed? (OP reached new poster limit for 7/10
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BoomerangToo
Guest
OK, Pope Benedict and the Catechism don’t know squat. Why don’t you straighten them out? 
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JanSobieskiIII
Guest
I don’t have to. They agree with me.
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BoomerangToo
Guest
With what? That they (protestants) are heretics?
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AugustTherese
Guest
99.9% of today’s Protestants are born into their beliefs. They have no idea of what the Catholic Church properly teaches in Her fullness; they most likely have never heard of the Coucil of Trent; and, they surely have not obstinately rejected the teachings they’ve never been exposed to. Hence, most all Protestants are material heretics. However, they are Catholic by their Baptism and are Christian! They should all be treated with tenderness, compassion, and an ecumenical spirit. For us reverts and converts, if it wasn’t for merciful and gentle Catholics, we would still be without the Eucharist.
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guanophore
Guest
You claim…
If this is the case, then you were 1) not honest during your initiation rites 2) very poorly catechized. If it is not the case, then you may be a troll.
I say you may be poorly catechized because a convert accepts before the rites of initiation that Jesus founded the Church and He protects her from error by the Holy Spirit.
You also seem to be unconverted in your mind, if you refer to “their teaching” as if it is not the teaching you have embraced (our teaching).
Then it would be prudent to begin fasting and praying for them immediately.
Yes. But since you are talking like a heretic yourself, it seems you have nothing to worry about affiliating with others who are also separated from the One Church founded by Christ.
Whenever this view changed, it would have been a decision you embraced when you “converted”. Therefore, you were not honest during the Rites of Initiation, or you are not honest about being a recent convert. Either way, your own soul is in too much jeapardy to be concerned about anyone else.
Certainly, go ahead. Reject what the authority appointed by Christ has taught.
I bet you have! In fact, you may be disingenuously misrepresenting yourself as one right now!
I suspect we might be dealing with…
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If you espouse this view, then perhaps you are also a sedavacantist?
This is opposed to the teaching of the Church.
This does not equate to heresy.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, but this is a critical distinction.
I am thinking not.
Honestly, I am wondering if this is a valid claim.
Or even genuine, one has to suspect.
HOnestly, I doubt it.
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ZMystiCat
Guest
I’ll just add to this, since I recently came into the Church as well.
@Ambasea seems to have read, and possibly interacted with, a lot of radical traditionalists. Their teaching can be incredibly confusing for someone in RCIA or who is a recent convert. They appear Catholic and, in many cases, are. However, the way that they talk about Pope Francis, Vatican II, the modern Church, etc. is often far from the attitude a Catholic should have. Maybe they’re confused themselves. Maybe they’re arrogant. Either way, I think for a newcomer, they can cause a lot of confusion. They almost did for me, but thankfully, God used them to get me to address my lack of faith in Christ and His Church.
Personally, I’m not convinced OP is a troll. He sounds more like someone who has spent too much time on a site with a good number of rad trads and possibly sedevacantists.
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guanophore
Guest
I hope you are right, because CAF will be the best thing that could have happened!
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Why would someone join a church when they didn’t have faith in its policies or in the person/ group of people leading it?
That would be like if I became a US citizen and then immediately started questioning whether the President was properly serving and whether all the Constitutional amendments from the last 150 years were actually legitimate. I would expect other people around me to be thinking, “Did you become a citizen in order to enjoy the benefits of USA and do things that normal US ciiizens do, or did you just join in order to make trouble? Why did you join at all?”
That would be like if I became a US citizen and then immediately started questioning whether the President was properly serving and whether all the Constitutional amendments from the last 150 years were actually legitimate. I would expect other people around me to be thinking, “Did you become a citizen in order to enjoy the benefits of USA and do things that normal US ciiizens do, or did you just join in order to make trouble? Why did you join at all?”
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JanSobieskiIII
Guest
I am not a sedevacantist. Nor a rad trad. I just believe in being frank instead of dancing around an issue just because it might hurt feelings.
“The Catholic Church distinguishes between “formal heresy” and “material heresy”. The former involves willful and persistent adherence to an error in matters of faith and is a grave sin for which the church applies the penalty of excommunication.[2] “Material heresy” is the holding of erroneous opinions through no fault of one’s own and is not sinful. Protestants can fall into either the first or the second group, depending on whether they are in invincible ignorance[3] while the Eastern Orthodox are considered to be schismatic but are recognised as local churches, but “defective” (according to Dominus Iesus) and severed from the Catholic Church,[5] which in Catholic teaching is the “only true Church”.”
Also,
“In the Roman Catholic Church, heresy has a very specific meaning. There are four elements which constitute formal heresy; a valid Christian baptism; a profession of still being a Christian; outright denial or positive doubt regarding a truth that the Catholic Church regards as revealed by God; and lastly, the disbelief must be morally culpable, that is, there must be a refusal to accept what is known to be a doctrinal imperative. Therefore, to become a heretic in the strict canonical sense and be excommunicated, one must deny or question a truth that is taught as the word of God, and at the same time recognize one’s obligation to believe it. If the person is believed to have acted in good faith, as one might out of ignorance, then the heresy is only material and implies neither guilt nor sin against faith.”
And from an early quote from pope Benedict
Their beliefs are still heretical. Whether or not the individual holds culpability for their heresy is up for debate.
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BartholomewB
Guest
This.
…
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poche
Guest
This change in attitude towards Protestants is really a change in discipline. When the circumstances change then it is time for a change in tactics.
Like for example the rule that we should do penance on Friday by not eating meat. So if we pig out on lobster and shrimp are we really ding penance? Unless you really dislike lobster and shrimp then you are not really doing penance.
The ecumenical movement withing the Catholic Church is the same way. It is a subset of evangelization. It is easier and more effective to evangelize some one it we are friendly toward them than if were were sitting across the room from them staring daggers at them. It is easier and more effective to evangelize someone it we are gracious and friendly than if we are calling each other bad names.
Like for example the rule that we should do penance on Friday by not eating meat. So if we pig out on lobster and shrimp are we really ding penance? Unless you really dislike lobster and shrimp then you are not really doing penance.
The ecumenical movement withing the Catholic Church is the same way. It is a subset of evangelization. It is easier and more effective to evangelize some one it we are friendly toward them than if were were sitting across the room from them staring daggers at them. It is easier and more effective to evangelize someone it we are gracious and friendly than if we are calling each other bad names.
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guanophore
Guest
Are you getting this from Wikipedia?
Do you have a Catholic source?
Some of the doctrine they espouse is heretical, but “their belief” in it does not generally meet th erequiremets defined as formal.
In either case, it does not contribute to unity to focus on such things, especially in the beginning of apologetic discourse.
It is beyond the purview of those on an internet forum to examine the heart of another believer to the extent that their condition can be “up for debate” in an environment such as this.
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JanSobieskiIII
Guest
https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm
“The Church’s moral theology has always distinguished between objective or material sin and formal sin. The person who holds something contrary to the Catholic faith is materially a heretic. They possess the matter of heresy, theological error. Thus, prior to the Second Vatican Council it was quite common to speak of non-Catholic Christians as heretics, since many of their doctrines are objectively contrary to Catholic teaching. This theological distinction remains true, though in keeping with the pastoral charity of the Council today we use the term heretic only to describe those who willingly embrace what they know to be contrary to revealed truth. Such persons are formally (in their conscience before God) guilty of heresy. Thus, the person who is objectively in heresy is not formally guilty of heresy if 1) their ignorance of the truth is due to their upbringing in a particular religious tradition (to which they may even be scrupulously faithful), and 2) they are not morally responsible for their ignorance of the truth. This is the principle of invincible ignorance, which Catholic theology has always recognized as excusing before God.”
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on_the_hill
Guest
You can’t.
You can’t know for certain that Jesus is the son of God.
You can’t know for certain that Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.
You can’t know for certain that God even exists.
This is why we have this thing called Faith. This is why we say, "I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible . . . "
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ZMystiCat
Guest
I don’t really understand the logic either, but I also don’t know the full history behind OP’s questioning, such as if he started before or after Confirmation. There’s clearly a problem, but I’d rather not be too quick to declare what that problem is without knowing more.
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setarcos
Guest
How about Luke 9:49. Protestants are Christians for sure.
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setarcos
Guest
Hogwash…no sane person simply wakes up one day and says I’ll have faith today in “insert whatever”. There’s a certain compulsion to action towards faith in anything. Jesus didn’t simply arrive and say…believe in me. He actively demonstrated reasons to have faith in him. He did say blessed are those that believe but have not seen but this belief is based in a reasonable faith.
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kainosktisis
Guest
I am a convert to the Catholic Church from Protestantism (originally Baptist, then Fundamentalist, then Nondenominationlist). I am the only practicing Catholic in my household. I have one child who became a Mormon, & the rest in my household are Nondenominational Christians. I can’t avoid it whether I want to or not, but the fact remains that I love them. Heck, I married my husband as he is, & he was more of a lapsed Mormon/agnostic at that point in time. After we’d been married a number of years, he became a Christian.
Just be patient with them. Don’t do the flamethrower approach or the hit-'em-over-the-head-with-a-Bible/Catechism way of converting others. Let God speak to them through your witness to them. Answer their questions as they arise. Always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have. My husband was closed to my conversion, but now he asks questions, & while we may not agree on all matters, he is at least open to the Church now. My youngest who suffers from anxiety disorder accepted the St. Benedict Medal I’d given her. She carries it around with her. My middle one who has Asperger’s hasn’t yet been baptized, but she’s considering it now - more Nondenominational, but I think she has questions, too from time to time.
Just be patient with them. Don’t do the flamethrower approach or the hit-'em-over-the-head-with-a-Bible/Catechism way of converting others. Let God speak to them through your witness to them. Answer their questions as they arise. Always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have. My husband was closed to my conversion, but now he asks questions, & while we may not agree on all matters, he is at least open to the Church now. My youngest who suffers from anxiety disorder accepted the St. Benedict Medal I’d given her. She carries it around with her. My middle one who has Asperger’s hasn’t yet been baptized, but she’s considering it now - more Nondenominational, but I think she has questions, too from time to time.
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